The prophet

[Montalban]

Actually it is estimated that she was 13 or 14 which isnt that bad especially when Mary was only 12 or 13 when she gave her hand in marriage. Besides the reason why Muhammod married Aishia at such a young age was so that she could spread the message of Islam throughout the world longer and continue his prophetic legacy.

This post of yours contains what we call in debate a ‘half-truth’.

The original sources about her age; the Hadith, all say she was nine.
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
“Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
“Narrated Urwa: “The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
“Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.”
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud’s Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, “The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old.” (The narrator Sulaiman said: “Or six years.”). “He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.”

A Moslem apologist from the 1800s in India decided to re-examine the sources and ignoring several centuries of opinion decided to say she was around 14. So yes it has indeed been ‘estimated’ that she was 13 or 14, but only very recently by a few who don’t have the history of opinion behind them… and at best their argument is one that attacks the veracity of their own holy books (as quoted above) which clearly say she was nine.

Next to that you compare her age to Mary’s (which is based on a source that is not deemed reliable), in an effort at a relativist argument.

So in effect, if you want to use an unreliable source to bring Mary’s age down to a ‘novel’ interpretation of the Islamic texts to bring Aisha’s age up, you’re on your way to making an argument.

Even then your relativist argument fails because if Mary was that age, she was only ‘betrothed’ at that age, whereas Aisha’s marriage was consummated.

Leaving your post as it is therefore can only be for misinformation.

 

[Montalban]

hmmnnn—

I refuse to judge Mohammed, just like I refuse to judge Joseph Smith.

Mainstream Islam has changed radically in the past 1500 years. They recognize Jesus as a prophet. That is good.

I don’t think Islam is the anti-Christ. I think racist ideologies are the anti-Christ.

I refuse to be so harsh. Such harsh judgments only serve to divide further, and alienate them from following the teachings of Jesus. After all, that is only the first step------

Dealing with Aisha alone, let’s look how they’ve changed their tune…

Marriage at an early age
Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?
(Name and address withheld)
A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: “My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife.” The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: “I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes.”
Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not. Moreover her father may not marry her away to someone who is of a lesser status than hers. If he does and she objects, the marriage is not valid. Generally speaking, however. a girl must be asked to express her opinion in any proposed marriage. If she has been married before, then her verbal consent should be requested. If she has not been married previously, then her consent is also to be requested, but if she keeps quiet, her silence is taken as approval.
To say that the marriage is valid is not to say that people should go ahead and make such marriages. There may be certain circumstances, which make it desirable or advisable that a very young girl should be married away in this manner but this must not be taken as the normal situation. In marriage, the normal thing is that people should marry when they are of marriageable age. That does not include girls of nine or ten years of age, although some girls may attain puberty that early. Marriage involves certain responsibilities and a very young girl could not be expected to shoulder these. There are also other problems, which the may face, as she grows older. If things go wrong with her marriage, she will always blame her father for having messed up her life, well intentioned though he may be. If you take the example of your own daughter, and you force her to go and live with her husband despite her protestations, you will never be sure whether the marriage will work out well or not. If it does, then well and good. But there is an equal chance that problems may arise especially with your daughter behaving like the child she is. While her husband expects from her the attitude of a married woman. How could you expect her to overcome the feeling that she has been thrown into this situation without being allowed the slightest say in the whole matter which is to affect the rest of her life?
As we see it, your choice is either to get her divorced now, before the marriage is consummated or to keep her with you until she has attained puberty and she is in a position to express her opinion about this marriage. If she still objects to it, then you divorce her without any compulsion to go through with it. If, on the other hand, if she approves of this marriage, at that time, then you go ahead with it. Perhaps it is better for you to consult with the young man to whom you have already married her. He should be understanding and accommodating. Between the two of you should work out the best solution which ensures that he is not lumbered with marriage which is forced on a young girl who cannot be expected to give an opinion about such a matter.
islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

 

[Montalban]

Whose estimation is that? Of an Islamic Khaliph who wanted to save faces?

This ‘revision’ is novel. A Moslem apologist when wishing to present Islam to the ‘west’ decided to rework her age, and in fact attacks the ‘accuracy’ of their own books

Here’s more opinion…

Second marriage possible under these conditions. i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and she has also agreed. What is your advise?
i am 45 and married to already 15 years now after the sexual desire of my woman has nearly gone i am looking to marry again. And** i would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old**, her father and she has also agreed, my first wife told me that it could make problems if it will be a big different in age, and also some of my children are older than my second wife. What is your advise ? And is it allowed for me to have already sexual intercourse with these woman after we are married or to i have to wait till she reach at special age ?
islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737

In Islam a 12 year old girl can be considered a woman because in Islam she’s considered so 3 months after menstruation commences.

 

[Montalban]

Actually it is estimated that she was 13 or 14 which isnt that bad especially when Mary was only 12 or 13 when she gave her hand in marriage.

Let’s look at what Moslems say about their own holy books…
“Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn’t seem much room for debate about cAishah’s age amongst believing Muslims. **Until someone proves that in the Arabic language “nine years old” means something other than “nine years old”, then we should all be firm in our belief that she was “nine years old” **(as if there’s a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah’s age out to as far as “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I’ve done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah’s age was “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .”
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

Besides the reason why Muhammod married Aishia at such a young age was so that she could spread the message of Islam throughout the world longer and continue his prophetic legacy.

How would this have worked? How does having sex with a child spread Islam?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Maybe this would explain why Michael Jackson considered converting to Islam?

 

[Montalban]

Maybe this would explain why Michael Jackson considered converting to Islam?

Here’s another Moslem site…

Al-Bukhaari calls this chapter of his Saheeh “Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children).” The fact that Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“. . . and for those who have no courses [periods] (i.e., they are still immature) their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . .” [al-Talaaq 65:4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1493&ln=eng

 

[Montalban]

Revision of Aisha’s age

Whose estimation is that? Of an Islamic Khaliph who wanted to save faces?

Many times I’ve seen the following quoted
*The Ancient Myth Exposed *by T.O. Shanavas which is supposed to explain away that Aisha was not nine years old

This is widely circulated by Moslem apologists who don’t realise the irony of calling facts based on their own holy books myths

This itself is based on (usually without giving credit) a Moslem from the sub-continent.
Firstly, they are allegedly based on the research of

Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, “Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka’inat”, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan
understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm#1

Thus the ‘revision’ is novel to Islam, done by a Pakistani man…
MAULANA MUHAMMAD ALI, the author cited by The_true_path lived in the late 1800s. He was a modernist; educated in Britain.
"His editorials played a critical role in molding the political outlook of modern India. "
cyberistan.org/islamic/mmali.htm

As such he was an apologist for Islam; wishing to make it more palatable to his western educated audience. This was his raison d’etre, to provide a false idea of Islam, based on recent conjecture.

“It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage”
muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Actually it is estimated that she was 13 or 14 which isnt that bad especially when Mary was only 12 or 13 when she gave her hand in marriage. Besides the reason why Muhammod married Aishia at such a young age was so that she could spread the message of Islam throughout the world longer and continue his prophetic legacy.

I would like you to provide the evidence to support that.

Oh… please bring the sahih hadiths - not some polemics using spurious dates from unauthentic sources.

Aisha herself said she was 9 in the sahih hadiths.

 

[Montalban]

I would like you to provide the evidence to support that.

Oh… please bring the sahih hadiths - not some polemics using spurious dates from unauthentic sources.

Aisha herself said she was 9 in the sahih hadiths.

From my site I cited in the post above

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allaah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear. And Allaah knows best
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1493&ln=eng

Don’t you realise Allaah knows best!
:bowdown:

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

I have no proof that Omar corrupted the Koran as Muslims have no proof that he did NOT! More, all Muslims believe & teach that the Bible was corrupted even though they have no proof! (you seem to have skipped some parts of my post above)

I do not know what your religious affiliation is, but I guess that u r either a Muslim denying certain fundamental tenets of Islam or someone that is not familiar with Islamic ideology. (You should read my post again)

The Koran tries to replace all biblical figures with mere images of Islamic prophets that were products of Mohammed’s fantasies. Thus, Islam believes in the prophets in the way they are described under Islamic monopoly rather than believe in the prophets of the Bible. Therefore, their faith does not count!

Peace to you,
ANgelos N.

Actually i was raised Catholic. I just didnt see the point of having a one sided debate. As far as the age is concerned i got it from a Christian evangelist. Anyways i belong to 7 other forums i work at Target 4 days out of the week i go to school full time and i tutor in the evening so please dont take my delayed response as a sign of ignorance. If i have the time to respond i will. Thanks for the research though its a relief from post that randomly rehash tautalogical reasoning.

“Why is Muhammud evil?” “Because the bible says so” “Why does the Bible says because Muhammud is evil.” Know this isnt verbatim but you get the general picture.

 

[exoflare]

“Why is Muhammud evil?” “Because the bible says so” “Why does the Bible says because Muhammud is evil.” Know this isnt verbatim but you get the general picture.

It’s much simpler than that… He ordered that all who leave Islam be put to death; there is other evidence but that alone is solid proof he was evil.

 

[Spirithound]

(Allah can kiss my…)

Muslims have an extremely distorted view of God, but Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. This is what Arab Christians call God.

I really wonder where u read that Mary was only 12 or 13 when she “gave her hand in marriage”? Who wanted to marry her at that age? How old was her fiancee? Was Joseph 50 when Mary was 12?

Mary was indeed quite young by today’s standards, basically because that was the norm back then (sorry, the only source i have on that right now is my highschool religion teacher). Although, i was told she was around 14. Joseph was much older, but he never intended to have sex with her. She was a consecrated virgin of the temple, and so once she started menstruating and was not fit for temple service, she had to be given to a man who would respect her virginity.

 

[Mickey]

If I remember correctly, when the angel first appeared to Mohammed to give the words of the Koran, Muhammed was filled with fear and ran in terror.

An angel of God would come with peace and tranquility–one would not flee in a panic.

This seems to indicate that at the very least, Muhammed was duped by Satan appearing as an angel of light.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Angelos]

Mary was indeed quite young by today’s standards, basically because that was the norm back then (sorry, the only source i have on that right now is my highschool religion teacher). Although, i was told she was around 14. Joseph was much older, but he never intended to have sex with her. She was a consecrated virgin of the temple, and so once she started menstruating and was not fit for temple service, she had to be given to a man who would respect her virginity.

Hi Spirithound

These assertions come from the apocryphal infancy Gospel of James, which I consider nothing more than a religious story pleasing to ears and heart. The Canonical Gospels say nothing about the Virgin’s dedication to the temple because such a claim came a century after Luke wrote his Gospel and highlighted the resemblance between Zecchariah and Panaghia on the basis of their visitation by Gabriel for annunciation. This spurious Gospel attributed to James, however, aimed to elaborate on the infancy narrative in Luke by taking the present resemblance further to Theotokos’ consecration to the Temple in order to refute the libelling campaign some Jews initiated in relation to Mary’s chastity.

More to the point, not even that spurious Gospel claims that Joseph married Mary or had intercourse with her when Mary was at her fourteen (as you emphasized in your post)

Peace to you,
ANgelos N.

 

[Angelos]

Actually i was raised Catholic. I just didnt see the point of having a one sided debate. As far as the age is concerned i got it from a Christian evangelist. Anyways i belong to 7 other forums i work at Target 4 days out of the week i go to school full time and i tutor in the evening so please dont take my delayed response as a sign of ignorance. If i have the time to respond i will. Thanks for the research though its a relief from post that randomly rehash tautalogical reasoning.

OK amigo, it is clear now

“Why is Muhammud evil?” “Because the bible says so” “Why does the Bible says because Muhammud is evil.” Know this isnt verbatim but you get the general picture.

I do not think that Mohammed is evil because the Bible says so. Actually, the Bible ignores Mohammed altogether! This is definitely good because the more you mention one, the more important or powerful he/she appears to be.

What we are doing here is partly a guesswork since we are aiming to prove how close Mohammed’s teaching is to the designation of false prophets in the Gospels. Nevertheless, we know that it is impossible to get instant confirmation from the Lord for our presumptions.

(as for Mary’s age stated by some Christians, please read my post above)

Peace & good luck to you in your hectic life,
Angelos N.

 

[exoflare]

I do not think that Mohammed is evil because the Bible says so. Actually, the Bible ignores Mohammed altogether! This is definitely good because the more you mention one, the more important or powerful he/she appears to be.

Interesting point.

 

[thomon16]

“the generally low levels in Muslim societies of incidences of alcohol consumption, incest, rape, murder, fornication, violent crimes, juvenile deliquency, homosexuality, suicides, gambling and other social ills as compared to the statistics to be found in the societies of other major faiths, particularly those in the West.”

May be due to the severe punishments - loss of limbs and/or
life - meted out in Muslim countries. Fear is a powerful
motivator of behavior.

But, fear has not stopped Muslim terrorists from murdering
thousands of innocent Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq.

 

[Spirithound]

Hi Spirithound

These assertions come from the apocryphal infancy Gospel of James, which I consider nothing more than a religious story pleasing to ears and heart. The Canonical Gospels say nothing about the Virgin’s dedication to the temple because such a claim came a century after Luke wrote his Gospel and highlighted the resemblance between Zecchariah and Panaghia on the basis of their visitation by Gabriel for annunciation. This spurious Gospel attributed to James, however, aimed to elaborate on the infancy narrative in Luke by taking the present resemblance further to Theotokos’ consecration to the Temple in order to refute the libelling campaign some Jews initiated in relation to Mary’s chastity.

More to the point, not even that spurious Gospel claims that Joseph married Mary or had intercourse with her when Mary was at her fourteen (as you emphasized in your post)

Peace to you,
ANgelos N.

Agreed, the Protoevangelium of James is not (necessarily) to be considered reliable, but i have heard Mary’s dedication as a temple virgin used to explain why she said “How can this be, since i am a virgin?” (or similar words).
I should reaffirm that i believe that Joseph never had intercourse with Mary, but i do believe she was a young mother (by today’s standards), because it is my understanding that in those days, mothers were young, usually within a year or so after they became fertile.
I derive no scandal by the above posting, nor do i intend to disparage either my Lord, or Mother.

 

[Godhead]

If I remember correctly, when the angel first appeared to Mohammed to give the words of the Koran, Muhammed was filled with fear and ran in terror.

An angel of God would come with peace and tranquility–one would not flee in a panic.

This seems to indicate that at the very least, Muhammed was duped by Satan appearing as an angel of light.

Exactly, in scripture it says, if an angel of light should come teaching anything other than what is taught in scripture because an angel of light they may be; but let that angel be damned.