The Protestant Communion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
concretecamper said:
The Church was born of the paschal mystery. For this very reason the Eucharist, which is in an outstanding way the sacrament of the paschal mystery, stands at the centre of the Church’s life. This is already clear from the earliest images of the Church found in the Acts of the Apostles: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers†(2:42). The “breaking of the bread†refers to the Eucharist. Two thousand years later, we continue to relive that primordial image of the Church. At every celebration of the Eucharist, we are spiritually brought back to the paschal Triduum: to the events of the evening of Holy Thursday, to the Last Supper and to what followed it. The institution of the Eucharist sacramentally anticipated the events which were about to take place, beginning with the agony in Gethsemane. Once again we see Jesus as he leaves the Upper Room, descends with his disciples to the Kidron valley and goes to the Garden of Olives. Even today that Garden shelters some very ancient olive trees. Perhaps they witnessed what happened beneath their shade that evening, when Christ in prayer was filled with anguish “and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down upon the ground†(cf. Lk 22:44). The blood which shortly before he had given to the Church as the drink of salvation in the sacrament of the Eucharist, began to be shed; its outpouring would then be completed on Golgotha to become the means of our redemption: “Christ… as high priest of the good things to come…, entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption†(Heb 9:11- 12).

ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA: JPII

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
Click to expand...
All Lutherans agree.
 
40.png
EvangelCatholic:
Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

The Church was born of the paschal mystery. For this very reason the Eucharist, which is in an outstanding way the sacrament of the paschal mystery, stands at the centre of the Church’s life. This is already clear from the earliest images of the Church found in the Acts of the Apostles: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers� (2:42). The “breaking of the bread� refers to the Eucharist. Two thousand years later, we continue to relive that primordial image of the Church. At every celebration of the Eucharist, we are spiritually brought back to the paschal Triduum: to the events of the evening of Holy Thursday, to the Last Supper and to what followed it. The institution of the Eucharist sacramentally anticipated the events which were about to take place, beginning with the agony in Gethsemane. Once again we see Jesus as he leaves the Upper Room, descends with his disciples to the Kidron valley and goes to the Garden of Olives. Even today that Garden shelters some very ancient olive trees. Perhaps they witnessed what happened beneath their shade that evening, when Christ in prayer was filled with anguish “and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down upon the ground� (cf. Lk 22:44). The blood which shortly before he had given to the Church as the drink of salvation in the sacrament of the Eucharist, began to be shed; its outpouring would then be completed on Golgotha to become the means of our redemption: “Christ… as high priest of the good things to come…, entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption� (Heb 9:11- 12).

ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA: JPII

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

All Lutherans agree.
Click to expand...
Great!

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
 
Alizarin said:
Why not? Chesterton, for example, when he was still Anglican, was a big fan of the saints, St. Francis of Assisi in particular. Of course, if your particular community had very specific rules against it, that would be another thing… does it?
Click to expand...
It’s not that I’m a fan of the saints, per se, that I believe in the Real Presence now. It’s the realization that Real Presence was believed since the beginning, and the writings of the saints helped confirm and solidify my belief.

I don’t really have a community now. Stopped going to Protestant church but do attend Mass now, but I’m not confirmed/catechized/etc.
 
EIF5A said:
It’s not that I’m a fan of the saints, per se, that I believe in the Real Presence now. It’s the realization that Real Presence was believed since the beginning, and the writings of the saints helped confirm and solidify my belief.

I don’t really have a community now. Stopped going to Protestant church but do attend Mass now, but I’m not confirmed/catechized/etc.
Click to expand...
Ahh, I see now. Well, I’m sure whatever parish you attend is happy to be your community even though you’re not yet officially Catholic, I mean it sounds like you’re on the path to Rome (as Belloc would’ve put it)… am I right?
 
Alizarin said:
Ahh, I see now. Well, I’m sure whatever parish you attend is happy to be your community even though you’re not yet officially Catholic, I mean it sounds like you’re on the path to Rome (as Belloc would’ve put it)… am I right?
Click to expand...
Whether I willed it or not, I’m getting pulled that way…But I also like Orthodox spirituality and they have valid Eucharist as well…I may have to find a Byzantine Catholic parish but it’s not as common though.

Admittedly, I have a hard time processing the fact that Jesus’ soul, divinity, flesh, and blood (I think I’m missing some other element) is present in the bread. I wish He were physically present in the form of human, but that’s not faith. 😊 Guess we have to hope for God’s mercy and grace for Beatific Vision/theosis/sanctification.
 
EIF5A said:
I may have to find a Byzantine Catholic parish
Click to expand...
Good luck with that. I don’t know where you’re from, but where I’m from they are next to impossible to find.

Wait, it says NJ up there, doesn’t it? Nevermind, I know where you’re from 🙂
 
EIF5A said:
I wish He were physically present in the form of human, but that’s not faith. 😊 Guess we have to hope for God’s mercy and grace for Beatific Vision/theosis/sanctification.
Click to expand...
I sometime find it helpful to remind myself that God allows us free-will. If the Eucharist was visibly God, then we would not need faith (as you described) and would no longer really have the free-will to accept His Gospel.
 
JonNC said:
No. Sacramental Union. We choose not to express the real presence in metaphysical terms.

Jon
Click to expand...
Interesting. I never knew this.

So, I did a quick Google to learn more…are you okay with the following from Wikipedia:

"Consubstantiation is a theological doctrine that (like Transubstantiation) attempts to describe the nature of the Christian Eucharist in concrete metaphysical terms. It holds that during the sacrament, the fundamental “substance” of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. The doctrine of consubstantiation is often held in contrast to the doctrine of transubstantiation.

"The adjective consubstantial however describes a different theological concept.

“The doctrine of consubstantiation is erroneously identified as the eucharistic doctrine of Martin Luther, who defined his doctrine as the sacramental union. While some Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, others reject the concept because it substitutes what they believe to be the biblical doctrine with a philosophical construct and implies, in their view, a natural, local inclusion of the body and blood of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine of the eucharist.”
 
Randy_Carson said:
Interesting. I never knew this.

So, I did a quick Google to learn more…are you okay with the following from Wikipedia:

"Consubstantiation is a theological doctrine that (like Transubstantiation) attempts to describe the nature of the Christian Eucharist in concrete metaphysical terms. It holds that during the sacrament, the fundamental “substance” of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. The doctrine of consubstantiation is often held in contrast to the doctrine of transubstantiation.

"The adjective consubstantial however describes a different theological concept.

“The doctrine of consubstantiation is erroneously identified as the eucharistic doctrine of Martin Luther, who defined his doctrine as the sacramental union. While some Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, others reject the concept because it substitutes what they believe to be the biblical doctrine with a philosophical construct and implies, in their view, a natural, local inclusion of the body and blood of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine of the eucharist.”
Click to expand...
Yes, though it is important to note that where it says “some Lutherans”, I am not aware of any prominent Lutheran theologian from any era that taught it. Some Lutherans may believe it, but that doesn’t make it Lutheran teaching.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Yes, though it is important to note that where it says “some Lutherans”, I am not aware of any prominent Lutheran theologian from any era that taught it. Some Lutherans may believe it, but that doesn’t make it Lutheran teaching.

Jon
Click to expand...
Well…this piqued my interest a bit.

So Jon…"the eucharistic doctrine of Martin Luther, who defined his doctrine as the sacramental union:…what is “sacramental union” or what is the Lutheran definition?
 
JonNC said:
Yes, though it is important to note that where it says “some Lutherans”, I am not aware of any prominent Lutheran theologian from any era that taught it. Some Lutherans may believe it, but that doesn’t make it Lutheran teaching.

Jon
Click to expand...
Fair enough. We have the same problem. 🙂
 
pablope said:
Well…this piqued my interest a bit.

So Jon…"the eucharistic doctrine of Martin Luther, who defined his doctrine as the sacramental union:…what is “sacramental union” or what is the Lutheran definition?
Click to expand...
From the below website, I think this definition to be brief and accurate, so fitting into this conversation.
Lutherans believe that Christ’s true body, the same body that was incarnate in the Virgin Mary, crucified on the cross, touched by the apostles, and ascended into heaven, is essentially (truly and substantially) present here on earth in the Supper, although invisibly in a way beyond understanding. It is received orally with the bread by the godly and the wicked alike, because the Sacrament is not founded on people’s holiness, but upon God’s Word; likewise Christ’s blood with the wine. Thus, the Holy Supper works consolation and life in the believing, and condemnation in the unbelieving.
Click to expand...
Just as Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united, so the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body are united (likewise the wine and the blood). This is not a personal union (as that of the two natures of Christ), or a mystical union (as that between Christ and the believer), but a unique and incomprehensible sacramental union; not a natural or spatial combination, mixture, or fusion, but a supernatural union.
Click to expand...
stand-firm.blogspot.com/2012/06/lutheran-view-on-consubstantiation-and.html

Jon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top