The protestant gospel

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Because I read on the forums and hear on videos catholics view protestants teach that we can live in sin ask for god to forgive and still go to heaven
 
Hard to pass judgment on “Protestants” being that there are no universal “protestant beliefs” when it comes to salvation, justification…etc…

Even in the Calvinist camps You have those that believe God’s will is active in salvation, passive in damnation.

You have those that believe God’s will is active in salvation, active in damnation :eek:

You have ones that say works will show your salvation (Lordship Salvation)

You have those that deny any works need to be seen.

Nevermind the varying views of others in regards to the Substitutionary Atonement 🤷
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Because I read on the forums and hear on videos catholics view protestants teach that we can live in sin ask for god to forgive and still go to heaven
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I know of Protestants who believe exactly that. It’s a logical conclusion from Reformed theology, particularly that of Calvin.

Which is part of the reason I abandoned Reformed theology and became a Catholic: Reformed theology is incoherent.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Because I read on the forums and hear on videos catholics view protestants teach that we can live in sin ask for god to forgive and still go to heaven
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You are not hearing the whole thing. Some Protestants believe that. Most do not, and most Catholics know that. Half of my family is Protestant of various denominations, and I’ve been to a lot of services and never once heard that preached, however I’ve heard Protestant preaching against it.
 
neophyte said:
I know of Protestants who believe exactly that. It’s a logical conclusion from Reformed theology, particularly that of Calvin.

Which is part of the reason I abandoned Reformed theology and became a Catholic: Reformed theology is incoherent.
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Apparently there were some in the Reformation period that believed it. Hence, the Lutheran Confessions comment:
We also reject and condemn the dogma that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost are not lost by wilful sin, but that the saints and elect retain the Holy Ghost even though they fall into adultery and other sins and persist therein.
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Jon
 
Agree with onemangang above. There is no single “protestant” belief (except maybe that the Catholics are wrong…:D…It’s a joke folks.).
Some DO profess that even the sins they are going to commit are already forgiven…
Some do not profess this.
Of course both stand on Scripture as their source for their differing beliefs…🤷

That said…Erick…You make a good point that we, as Catholics here on CAF will use the term “protestant” rather loosely. It’s something that is difficult to get away from I’m afraid.

Peace
James
 
I was raised a Roman Catholic. Was born, baptized, and raised in a Catholic Church and school.

Everyone I knew who was Catholic, that was my age, hated to go to mass. We had out communion anyway.

Our parents lived in outward rebellion, drunkeness, anger, wrath, abuse, sexual immorality, divorce, etc,etc

My first experience of protestantism was in Orlando, FL through a message of repentance and a turning to God and to prove it by good works. Otherwise, no salvation is there.

Since then I have not even been in a church which has taught otherwise.

In my own experience, Reformed theology has always fought against what is called “Easy-believism” which is the belief that all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart and believe and your eternal destiny is sealed.

Therefore, when I hear Catholics characterize where I came from, I must disagree.

Its not just my church that taught this, but 9marks churches all over the united states, reformed baptist church under the confession of the 1689, ministers who subscribe to Thegospelcoalition.org …it was pretty widespread the teaching on the necessity of works and church discipline.

In fact, I see easy-believism more in the catholic church than the protestant Church. I see less excommunications in the catholic church than I do in the protestant church.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DljPRHlcNaaY%26feature%3Dshare&h=_AQFgbdnL&s=1

I wanted to put this here because I’m afraid that many catholics think faith alone makes protestants live however theyvwant.
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I understand your wishing to post that video…Quite powerful…

But - in defense of my fellow Catholics I think that “Faith Alone”, coupled with “Sola Scriptura” actually DOES allow protestants to “live however they want”. I mean that, not so much in a “permissive” sense but rather in the sense that, by using bible alone and faith alone, there have sprung up so many “flavors” (doctrines) of belief within protestantism that one can “pick and choose” their denomination based on what appeals to them personally.

These various denominational groups range from those very near to Catholicism like the Anglican and Lutheran all the way to those who preach a completely foreign Gospel of “health and wealth”.

The impression I have received from talking with a number of protestants is that movement from denomination to denomination (within a certain range) is not seen as problematic. They all (for the most part) accept each other as legitimately Christian even though they believe different things.

So you see…in this sense they ARE living however they want.

Peace
James
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
…

In fact, I see easy-believism more in the catholic church than the protestant Church. I see less excommunications in the catholic church than I do in the protestant church.
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I’m afraid that you are all too correct in this…We have a great need for evangelization within the Church.

Peace
James
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I was raised a Roman Catholic. Was born, baptized, and raised in a Catholic Church and school.

Everyone I knew who was Catholic, that was my age, hated to go to mass. We had out communion anyway.

Our parents lived in outward rebellion, drunkeness, anger, wrath, abuse, sexual immorality, divorce, etc,etc

My first experience of protestantism was in Orlando, FL through a message of repentance and a turning to God and to prove it by good works. Otherwise, no salvation is there.

Since then I have not even been in a church which has taught otherwise.

In my own experience, Reformed theology has always fought against what is called “Easy-believism” which is the belief that all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart and believe and your eternal destiny is sealed.

Therefore, when I hear Catholics characterize where I came from, I must disagree.

Its not just my church that taught this, but 9marks churches all over the united states, reformed baptist church under the confession of the 1689, ministers who subscribe to Thegospelcoalition.org …it was pretty widespread the teaching on the necessity of works and church discipline.

In fact, I see easy-believism more in the catholic church than the protestant Church. I see less excommunications in the catholic church than I do in the protestant church.
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Erick, I’ve read many of your posts and most of them relate to issues surrounding justification. I also get the sense, from reading your posts, that you are here to proselytize; or even if you aren’t, what is clear is that you’re not here to gain an understanding of Catholicism.

:bible1:
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I was raised a Roman Catholic. Was born, baptized, and raised in a Catholic Church and school.

Everyone I knew who was Catholic, that was my age, hated to go to mass. We had out communion anyway.

Our parents lived in outward rebellion, drunkeness, anger, wrath, abuse, sexual immorality, divorce, etc,etc
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Me too, but the truth of Catholicism never changed, I did!
My first experience of protestantism was in Orlando, FL through a message of repentance and a turning to God and to prove it by good works. Otherwise, no salvation is there.
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Since then I have not even been in a church which has taught otherwise.
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My “protestant” community did not teach that. Although Calvary Chapel taught OSAS, you had about half the community that thought you could lose your salvation. United in faith in a common union, they are not, even in their own Christian community
In my own experience, Reformed theology has always fought against what is called “Easy-believism” which is the belief that all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart and believe and your eternal destiny is sealed.
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Not, my experience, our head pastor called himself a 4 point Calvinist that was very Arminian, while the assistant pastor was a TULIP preaching 5 point Calvinist. Both were Lordship Salvation type of guys when it came to justification.

One would look at a Christian that struggled with sin as just that, a struggling Christian. The other would look at the Christian struggling with sin and say, he must have never REALLY been saved to begin with 😦
Therefore, when I hear Catholics characterize where I came from, I must disagree.
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I would encourage that. They should be quick to listen and slow to speak
Its not just my church that taught this, but 9marks churches all over the united states, reformed baptist church under the confession of the 1689, ministers who subscribe to Thegospelcoalition.org …it was pretty widespread the teaching on the necessity of works and church discipline.
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In some non-catholic communities I suppose, but far from all!
In fact, I see easy-believism more in the catholic church than the protestant Church. I see less excommunications in the catholic church than I do in the protestant church.
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There is certainly a history of woeful catachesis in the Catholic Church, but that seems to be changing with the new media of evangelization 😉
 
I am truly here to gain an insight to Catholicism.

I have neglected protestant churches and have been visiting Catholic Churches in my area.

The problem is, despite how eager I am to become a Catholic, I find things in my journey that are kind of warning signs.

For instance, the sense of community, the the “one-another’s” in the New Testament, see to be ill-practiced in my area of Catholic Churches. People show up just on time, and they leave immediately after Mass. Jesus’ prayer that the believers would be “one” does not mean that they would all simply adhere to the same thing, but would grow in love toward each other, in trinitarian love, and I see this by far more in protestant Churches.

Secondly, as I visit Catholic Churches, I’ve come across Priests who are teaching bible studies who spend a great deal of the time teaching that there are errors in the bible. I know that fundamentalists take it too far, but I think this Catholic went too far in the other direction, so much so that I wonder if he is even saved.

Thirdly, I sense a great deal of outward superstition. In other words, there are some people who are never really discipled who attend a Catholic Church, bow down to the statue of Joseph and Mary, look very serious during the Mass, but are not really lovers of God. I know that there are many in protestantism, but just not in my experience.

Fourthly, I come from a protestant church that resembles the plymouth brethren and the original anabaptists. When there was sin in the congregation, or in just one brother, the brother who knows about it goes to him 1 on 1. If he repents, there is joyful restoration. However, if he refuses to change, 2 or 3 go to that brother. If he repents, then there is even more joyful restoration. But if he fails to exhibit the signs of a truly repentant heart, it is brought before the Elders and the Church. If he repents, there is joy in the whole congregation. However, if he does not submit to the discipline of the Church, then he is asked to leave and to not return to the fellowship of the body of Christ until he has repented of his sin. I’ve seen so many lives change through this process. Many people who were decieved in their “love” and “service” to God have had their eyes open through the body of believers holding them accountable to live righteously. In the Catholic Church, you can have the DJ for the nightclubs participating in the fellowship just as much as the quiet introvert who is addicted to pornography, and both are ok to be there infecting the body of Christ. And what it does over time is create a sense of “I don’t really need to be zealous for Christ, and I can still go to heaven when I die”.

Fifthly, I know of many protestant Churches that are like this and are unified in their theology. In fact throughout my many years of evangelization, I’ve heard more differing views from Catholics than protestants on salvation, despite what is written down in their catechism.

Sixthly, the real dilemna I have is that I know that many of the arguments in favor of protestantism are very weak. For instance, where was the body of Christ from 300AD to 1600AD?
 
You’re wrong Eric. You are trying to compare apples and oranges from your own experience where you compare the poorest examples of Catholics to the supposed best of n-Cs as opposed to comparing the best of both faiths. That’s biased and dishonest, whether you mean to be or not.

As for the Protestant gospel…In general it is both different and deficient.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

It is my own opinion that the majority of non-Catholic salvation messages actually present a different and deficient gospel than that of the New Testament, the early church and the Catholic Church for the last 2,000 years.

I believe that the essential “way of salvation” verses that are used in a great many non-Catholic evangelistic messages been have ripped from the pages of the Word of God and bandied about in the last 500 years to further a different and oversimplified deficient Gospel that anyone who sits down and reads the New Testament for themselves without some non-Catholic preacher breathing down their neck every Sunday and Wednesday will soon discover is not the same Gospel of salvation.

I have read the Word of God many times and that is why I am a Catholic. The salvation message of the Catholic Church is in line with the teachings of the New Testament, and I believe that the salvation message of the majority of non-Catholics is some different gospel, condemned by St. Paul and leads to something that I have dubbed “Christianity Lite”.

This is the result of much internet discussion with a variety of non-Catholics which spawned the following post here on Apocalypsis. How Is A Catholic Saved?

Read your New Testament from cover to cover and see what the teachings are concerning salvation and then compare the various non-Catholic “ways” and “plans” of salvation with what you have read and see if the Holy Spirit does not show you the deficiencies and differences between the two.

They stop far short of what the New Testament Gospel is while the teachings of the Catholic Church are in fact right in line with it.

I would suggest that the context of the New Testament does not teach the Reformed doctrine and that (as I have stated before) their’s is a different and deficient gospel.

If no works are involved in our salvation, then how do you explain the Gospel message preached on the day of Pentecost (under the influence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit no less!) in Acts 2:37-38.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” [38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How do you explain the message delivered to St. Paul himself (especially since you assert that it is his teachings that convince you of the reformed position) in Acts 22:16
[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Obviously, from the message there, baptism is key to salvation and does indeed wash away and forgive sins. The reformed teachings contradict this in spite of the plain sense of the scriptures.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I am truly here to gain an insight to Catholicism.

I have neglected protestant churches and have been visiting Catholic Churches in my area.

The problem is, despite how eager I am to become a Catholic, I find things in my journey that are kind of warning signs.

For instance, the sense of community, the the “one-another’s” in the New Testament, see to be ill-practiced in my area of Catholic Churches. People show up just on time, and they leave immediately after Mass. Jesus’ prayer that the believers would be “one” does not mean that they would all simply adhere to the same thing, but would grow in love toward each other, in trinitarian love, and I see this by far more in protestant Churches.

Secondly, as I visit Catholic Churches, I’ve come across Priests who are teaching bible studies who spend a great deal of the time teaching that there are errors in the bible. I know that fundamentalists take it too far, but I think this Catholic went too far in the other direction, so much so that I wonder if he is even saved.

Thirdly, I sense a great deal of outward superstition. In other words, there are some people who are never really discipled who attend a Catholic Church, bow down to the statue of Joseph and Mary, look very serious during the Mass, but are not really lovers of God. I know that there are many in protestantism, but just not in my experience.

Fourthly, I come from a protestant church that resembles the plymouth brethren and the original anabaptists. When there was sin in the congregation, or in just one brother, the brother who knows about it goes to him 1 on 1. If he repents, there is joyful restoration. However, if he refuses to change, 2 or 3 go to that brother. If he repents, then there is even more joyful restoration. But if he fails to exhibit the signs of a truly repentant heart, it is brought before the Elders and the Church. If he repents, there is joy in the whole congregation. However, if he does not submit to the discipline of the Church, then he is asked to leave and to not return to the fellowship of the body of Christ until he has repented of his sin. I’ve seen so many lives change through this process. Many people who were decieved in their “love” and “service” to God have had their eyes open through the body of believers holding them accountable to live righteously. In the Catholic Church, you can have the DJ for the nightclubs participating in the fellowship just as much as the quiet introvert who is addicted to pornography, and both are ok to be there infecting the body of Christ. And what it does over time is create a sense of “I don’t really need to be zealous for Christ, and I can still go to heaven when I die”.

Fifthly, I know of many protestant Churches that are like this and are unified in their theology. In fact throughout my many years of evangelization, I’ve heard more differing views from Catholics than protestants on salvation, despite what is written down in their catechism.

Sixthly, the real dilemna I have is that I know that many of the arguments in favor of protestantism are very weak. For instance, where was the body of Christ from 300AD to 1600AD?
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Are you considering coming back to the Catholic Church?
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I was raised a Roman Catholic. Was born, baptized, and raised in a Catholic Church and school.

Everyone I knew who was Catholic, that was my age, hated to go to mass. We had out communion anyway.

Our parents lived in outward rebellion, drunkeness, anger, wrath, abuse, sexual immorality, divorce, etc,etc

My first experience of protestantism was in Orlando, FL through a message of repentance and a turning to God and to prove it by good works. Otherwise, no salvation is there.

Since then I have not even been in a church which has taught otherwise.

In my own experience, Reformed theology has always fought against what is called “Easy-believism” which is the belief that all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart and believe and your eternal destiny is sealed.

Therefore, when I hear Catholics characterize where I came from, I must disagree.

Its not just my church that taught this, but 9marks churches all over the united states, reformed baptist church under the confession of the 1689, ministers who subscribe to Thegospelcoalition.org …it was pretty widespread the teaching on the necessity of works and church discipline.

In fact, I see easy-believism more in the catholic church than the protestant Church. I see less excommunications in the catholic church than I do in the protestant church.
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I’m sorry about all you experienced in your Catholic home, parish, and schooling. I was fortunate to have grown up when catechesis was solid. And in a home, school, and community where the Catholic faith was practiced and honored. I went to a Catholic school and we had daily Mass; it was holy (altho I know there were times that I putzed around, as kids do.) So my experience was the total opposite of yours. But even with all that, I went thru a faith crisis in my mid-twenties. However, my crisis was about the divinity of Jesus, not the validity of the Catholic Church. It was always obvious to me that if Jesus was God, then the Catholic Church was His Church. When God gave me back faith in Our Lord, it was automatic (for me) that the Catholic Church was the true denomination — irregardless of sinful behavior on the part of it’s members.

I watched the video. What struck me was how consistent it was with Catholic teaching regarding sin and it’s effect on our salvation. Catholicism has always taught that we can lose our salvation through willed, unrepentent sin in serious matters; it teaches the necessity of obedience - of doing what Jesus commanded - that faith encompasses obedience. Because Catholics thus believe that our actions have a bearing on whether or not we will be saved, we are often accused of believing we are saved by our works!

I’m sure you’ve heard Protestants accuse Catholics of believing they are saved by works. If, by works, they don’t mean acts performed in obedience to Our Lord’s commands, WHAT DO THEY MEAN? What “works” do they think we perform, that we believe are necessary in order to be saved, but that are not commanded by Our Lord. It’s really been a puzzle for me.
I’d appreciate (name removed by moderator)ut from any other Protestants participating here also.
 
If our works have no merit with regard to our salvation, why then does Our Lord plainly tell us that we will be judged and either welcomed into the Kingdom of God or cast into hell based upon them in Matthew 25: 31-46
[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, [33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. [34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? [39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ [40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ [44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ [46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The Gospel today is (and should be!) the same as that preached by the apostles in the New Testament. (See Acts 2:37-38 and 22:16 as well as John 3:5) If what is preached is not the same then that (IMO) would qualify as “a different gospel”.

I, like many many Catholics, have heard and seen allegations that ours is a different gospel, but having read the Word of God carefully and prayerfully many times over many years, and comparing the messages of those who make those allegations to the salvation message of the Catholic Church alongside the New Testament, I have found that just the opposite is true.

If, as I suspect, you have read the New Testament all the way through, (more than likely many times over) you can understand what I mean when I say that the Gospel of salvation is actually the topic throughout and I submit that it is the Gospel that is preached by the Catholic Church that accurately aligns with that and not the one of the reformers or their modern step children.

Galatians 1:8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
 
Church_Militant said:
You’re wrong Eric. You are trying to compare apples and oranges from your own experience where you compare the poorest examples of Catholics to the supposed best of n-Cs as opposed to comparing the best of both faiths. That’s biased and dishonest, whether you mean to be or not.

As for the Protestant gospel…In general it is both different and deficient.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

It is my own opinion that the majority of non-Catholic salvation messages actually present a different and deficient gospel than that of the New Testament, the early church and the Catholic Church for the last 2,000 years.

I believe that the essential “way of salvation” verses that are used in a great many non-Catholic evangelistic messages been have ripped from the pages of the Word of God and bandied about in the last 500 years to further a different and oversimplified deficient Gospel that anyone who sits down and reads the New Testament for themselves without some non-Catholic preacher breathing down their neck every Sunday and Wednesday will soon discover is not the same Gospel of salvation.

I have read the Word of God many times and that is why I am a Catholic. The salvation message of the Catholic Church is in line with the teachings of the New Testament, and I believe that the salvation message of the majority of non-Catholics is some different gospel, condemned by St. Paul and leads to something that I have dubbed “Christianity Lite”.

This is the result of much internet discussion with a variety of non-Catholics which spawned the following post here on Apocalypsis. How Is A Catholic Saved?

Read your New Testament from cover to cover and see what the teachings are concerning salvation and then compare the various non-Catholic “ways” and “plans” of salvation with what you have read and see if the Holy Spirit does not show you the deficiencies and differences between the two.

They stop far short of what the New Testament Gospel is while the teachings of the Catholic Church are in fact right in line with it.

I would suggest that the context of the New Testament does not teach the Reformed doctrine and that (as I have stated before) their’s is a different and deficient gospel.

If no works are involved in our salvation, then how do you explain the Gospel message preached on the day of Pentecost (under the influence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit no less!) in Acts 2:37-38.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” [38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How do you explain the message delivered to St. Paul himself (especially since you assert that it is his teachings that convince you of the reformed position) in Acts 22:16
[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Obviously, from the message there, baptism is key to salvation and does indeed wash away and forgive sins. The reformed teachings contradict this in spite of the plain sense of the scriptures.
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Who said I didn’t believe in the necessity of works?

Listen, the protestant church I came from, which was a reformed baptist congregation, following much of the puritan theology of the 16,17th century, never once said that works were not essential for salvation. I am not sure what is being attacked here.

In the Westminster confession of faith and in the English baptist confessions of faith, all teaching that sanctification is as equally necessary as justification for eternal salvation. You are attacking the modern day apostacy which exists not just in the protestant churches but also in the Catholic Church, my family is one example, and it is even TOLERATED in the catholic church.

These protestants believed that justification is a gift of God that occurs within a much LARGER structure of salvation in the NEW BIRTH. Therefore, these protestants who broke away from the Catholic Church (whether this was wrong or right) never began to teach that justification is the be all and end all of salvation, rather it was a small component of the multi-faceted diamond of salvation, of which includes the neccesary grace of sanctification which provides the soul to perservere in holiness until the day of Christ.

It is extremely sad to see a protestant congregation, particularly the ones I am familiar with and of whom I have left for personal reasons, more committed to Christ than the many many Catholics I’ve met over the world, and I’ve met hundreds.
 
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