The Protestant invisible church

[ltwin]

So who decides what is a valid expression of Christianity a oneness Pentecostal would be considered a non Christian according to the vast majority of Christians including the Catholic Church

Well, no doubt Oneness Pentecostalism is heretical. But the fact that the majority of Christians can come to a consensus about that actually demonstrates that a level of unity can exist beyond institutional and confessional lines.

 

[Per_Crucem]

So when my episcopal relative is “marrying” two men and he says it isn’t a sin and my baptist relative says they aren’t “saved” but the baptist is on their third marriage and promotes birth control who is right it used to make my head nearly explode before I was catholic.

God is right.

Churches and individual Christians do goofy things all the time, regardless of what they or their institution may hold to.

We should look instead to our own inability to keep God’s law and believe in the incarnate God-man who died to redeem us from that law.

 

[Adamski]

God is right.

Churches and individual Christians do goofy things all the time, regardless of what they or their institution may hold to.

We should look instead to our own inability to keep God’s law and believe in the incarnate God-man who died to redeem us from that law.

I can say personally before I entered the Catholic Church as an adult I committed mortal sins multiple times a day and once I started going to confession as a catholic I rarely commit a venial sin and nearly never a mortal sin. So it’s really not that hard with jesus as the center of my life

 

[Per_Crucem]

I can say personally before I entered the Catholic Church as an adult I committed mortal sins multiple times a day and once I started going to confession as a catholic I rarely commit a venial sin and nearly never a mortal sin. So it’s really not that hard with jesus as the center of my life

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” - Luke 18:9-14

 

[Jon_S_1]

They could start a church. That doesn’t mean they are part of the invisible church though. For instance Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church. Could he do that? Yes. Does that make him part of the invisible church? No.

If someone leaves a church because that church disciplines him, then that person will have to answer to God for disobeying those placed in authority over him.

Unless the ones over him are false prophets or wrong right??

I mean a Lutheran pastor would give different answers regarding speaking in tongues compared to a Pentecostal pastor.

If the same two people went to each pastor how would it be resolved…who would be correct?

If the individual deems they are both wrong and contradicting scripture why could he not start his own church?

Bottom line is Matt 18 CANNOT be implemented in Protestantism

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, no doubt Oneness Pentecostalism is heretical. But the fact that the majority of Christians can come to a consensus about that actually demonstrates that a level of unity can exist beyond institutional and confessional lines.

Where is the Bible verse declaring majority rules?

" and if your brother sins against you take it to the church, and you shall tell the church has authority in what it tells you if a simple majority declare it as so."

" I will not guide you to the end of the age, but I shalll implement a democracy, so thou shalt argue and bicker over thine doctrines and upon final straw to be had, thine shall commence a vote of Christendom, and thou shalt send surveys to all thine denominations, and thy board of elders consisting of thine churches who denominations seem '‘more or less ok’ shall tally the divine survey, and the majority opinion amongst thine ‘ok denominations’ shall hold the authority on thine sound doctrine" - the lost writings of Mark

 

[believerdoc]

This is the question I emailed to my friend

If four different Christians are arguing about what a scripture passage means, one from foundation baptist church, a second the church of Christ and a third from mars hill and finally a roman catholic what does the bible tell us to do to settle our dispute and how does that get implemented.

Then I gave him this also

Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it.

Based on the above passage jesus founded one church either visible or invisible that will last forever

Please read the entire passage:

And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples: who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock referred to is the faith of the church universal (You are Christ, the Son of the living God). But you are right with this passage He did establish the church universal.**

 

[ltwin]

Unless the ones over him are false prophets or wrong right??

If someone leaves a church because it teaches false doctrine, then of course the person would be right to leave and those false prophets would be under God’s judgement.

I mean a Lutheran pastor would give different answers regarding speaking in tongues compared to a Pentecostal pastor.

A Lutheran would give a difference answer. But why would a Lutheran pastor need to concern himself with sheep that were not assigned to him? And why would a Pentecostal pastor need to give pastoral care to a Lutheran?

If the same two people went to each pastor how would it be resolved…who would be correct?

Each would go to their own pastor and seek pastoral care from the shepherd’s they have been entrusted too.

If the individual deems they are both wrong and contradicting scripture why could he not start his own church?

He could start his own church, but if he did so for the wrong reasons and without God’s calling, he’ll have to answer for that before God.

 

[believerdoc]

How do Protestants back up the idea of an invisible church it was a major point in me being catholic since I could only find a visible church in the bible

Any passages Protestants use would be helpful I am meeting with a friend that believes in a invisible church

I have been a Protestant all my life and have never heard of an “invisible” church. I have heard of the universal church of which all believers are a part. The faithful are the universal Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If someone leaves a church because it teaches false doctrine, then of course the person would be right to leave and those false prophets would be under God’s judgement.

A Lutheran would give a difference answer. But why would a Lutheran pastor need to concern himself with sheep that were not assigned to him? And why would a Pentecostal pastor need to give pastoral care to a Lutheran?

Each would go to their own pastor and seek pastoral care from the shepherd’s they have been entrusted too.

He could start his own church, but if he did so for the wrong reasons and without God’s calling, he’ll have to answer for that before God.

So Christianity is completely relativistic. Whichever church fits you best is the one you listen to?

God has different rules for everyone ?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Adamski;11261275:

This is the question I emailed to my friend

If four different Christians are arguing about what a scripture passage means, one from foundation baptist church, a second the church of Christ and a third from mars hill and finally a roman catholic what does the bible tell us to do to settle our dispute and how does that get implemented.

Then I gave him this also

Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it.

Based on the above passage jesus founded one church either visible or invisible that will last forever

Please read the entire passage:

And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples: who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock referred to is the faith of the church universal (You are Christ, the Son of the living God). But you are right with this passage He did establish the church universal.**

So Jesus says

You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church. And the second rock doesn’t refer to the first?

Who is reading his theology into the text?

 

[ltwin]

Where is the Bible verse declaring majority rules?

Hmm . . . My comment was not about “majority rules” but about the fact that despite differences there is an underlying unity of belief among Christians.

 

[Per_Crucem]

believerdoc;11261780:

So Jesus says

You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church. And the second rock doesn’t refer to the first?

Who is reading his theology into the text?

St John Chrysostom, apparently.

“Having said to Peter, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonas, and of having promised to lay the foundation of the Church upon his confession; not long after He says, Get thee behind me, Satan. And elsewhere he said, Upon this rock. He did not say upon Peter for it is not upon the man, but upon his own faith that the church is built. And what is this faith? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[ltwin]

So Christianity is completely relativistic. Whichever church fits you best is the one you listen to?

No. You go where God calls you, whether it “fits” you or not.

God has different rules for everyone ?

Of course not. That’s silly. Yet, the fact remains that God gives sheep to the shepherd. It’s not his job to worry about someone else’s flock.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hmm . . . My comment was not about “majority rules” but about the fact that despite differences there is an underlying unity of belief among Christians.

As determined by who?

Last I checked there were 1.2 billion Catholics, and 300 million orthodox who claim that baptism is required for salvation and Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Both of these churches trace to biblical times.

There are 600 million Protestants in the world.

And so the consensus lies where?

 

[believerdoc]

Jon S;11261802:

St John Chrysostom, apparently.

“Having said to Peter, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonas, and of having promised to lay the foundation of the Church upon his confession; not long after He says, Get thee behind me, Satan. And elsewhere he said, Upon this rock. He did not say upon Peter for it is not upon the man, but upon his own faith that the church is built. And what is this faith? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

AMEN!!!

 

[Jon_S_1]

No. You go where God calls you, whether it “fits” you are not.

Of course not. That’s silly. Yet, the fact remains that God gives sheep to the shepherd. It’s not his job to worry about someone else’s flock.

Ok so how should I find a church. Why should I not go to a Mormon church, or Seventh Day Adventist, or the Westbrook baptist church?

 

[ltwin]

As determined by who?

Last I checked there were 1.2 billion Catholics, and 300 million orthodox who claim that baptism is required for salvation and Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Both of these churches trace to biblical times.

There are 600 million Protestants in the world.

And so the consensus lies where?

Well, if the Catholic Church doesn’t want to recognize Protestants as Christians, it doesn’t have to. The fact it is that it does, which shows that even Catholics see an underlying unity in existence.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;11261802:

St John Chrysostom, apparently.

“Having said to Peter, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonas, and of having promised to lay the foundation of the Church upon his confession; not long after He says, Get thee behind me, Satan. And elsewhere he said, Upon this rock. He did not say upon Peter for it is not upon the man, but upon his own faith that the church is built. And what is this faith? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

The Navarre Bible Commentary gets this correct in its comments on Acts 1:15 as it quotes our Catholic Saint and Doctor: “Peter is the ardent and impetuous apostle to whom Christ entrusted the care of his flock; and since he is first in dignity, he is the first to speak” (St John Chrysostom, Homily on Acts, 3).

Here we see Peter performing his ministry. Events will make for the gradual manifestation of the supreme role of government which Christ entrusted to him. His is a ministry of service—he is the servus servorum Dei, the servant of the servants of God—a min ministry given to none other, different from all other ministries in the Church. Peter will carry it out in solidarity with his brothers in the Apostolate and in close contact with the whole Church represented here in the one hundred and twenty brethren around him.

This account of Peter with the other apostles and disciples all brought together is described by St John Chrysostom in these words: “Observe the admirable prudence of St Peter. He begins by quoting the authority of a prophet and does not say, ‘My own word suffices,’ so far is he from any thought of pride. But he seeks nothing less than the election of a twelfth apostle and he presses for this. His entire behaviour shows the degree of his authority and that he understood the apostolic office of government not as a position of honour but as a commitment to watch over the spiritual health of those under him.

“The disciples were one hundred and twenty, and Peter asks for one of these. But he it is who proposes the election and exercises the principal authority because he has been entrusted with the care of all” (Hom. on Acts, 3).

Come on folks. St. John Chrysostom was a bishop of the Catholic Church, proudly, not a Baptist sectarian.

 

[rcwitness]

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” - Luke 18:9-14

Thats a great quote!
…reminds me, also, of the rich man who asked Jesus what he must do to inherit everlasting life! …sell all that you have, and give to the poor…

Humility and brotherhood.

There is a bishop over the whole Church. Not for personal gain…not for the glory of men…but for confirmation among the faithfull. This possition does not grant him favor with God, for “God shows no partiality”…yet the humble who seek Apostolic Teaching will find His hidden manna through the Church.

Leaders can and do sin. We rejoice in the good ones, who by example show us Godliness…wheather it is by repenting and turning away from sin, no matter how many times they fall…or by steadfast faith keeping away from sin. Both are keeping God’s commands in the end. But the ones who are given authoritative teaching, and do not keep it, well… None of us would want to be them when they meet the Master.

Michael