The Protestant Meltdown

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The RCC did not write the bible. It certainly didn’t write the OT, and there are few who know who in fact wrote any of it. The NT was written by various people, many of them unknown. They were believers or followers in “The Way”. They attempted to in some cases right down 1. eye witness events they themselves saw, and/or 2. the recollections of what eye witnesses saw, and/or 3. The collected sayings and oral tradition that was being taught locally by various believers.
However, part of being a Christian (including any church of England offshoot) is believing the historical Catholic Church (which canonized scripture) was inspired by the Holy Spirit (and that it became corrupt by the wicked affections of men, according to God’s decree).

While, as Paul explains, we cannot trace the steps of God or understand His judgments (see Rom. 11:33-34) we can know that nothing happens without the will of God concerned (whether as first or secondary cause). While God never directly inspires men to wickedness, evil only exists because God permits it (in accordance with His plan and absolute sovereignty over the universe).

Therefore, we must understand that the corruptness of Leo X, and the resulting revolt of Luther … represented the eternal decree of God. Why is anyones guess??

Scripture should be understood in an objective way, and it is not amenable to subjective interpretation (that would cause all sorts of confusion within Christendom & God is not the author of confusion).
 
However, part of being a Christian (including any church of England offshoot) is believing the historical Catholic Church (which canonized scripture) was inspired by the Holy Spirit (and that it became corrupt by the wicked affections of men, according to God’s decree).

While, as Paul explains, we cannot trace the steps of God or understand His judgments (see Rom. 11:33-34) we can know that nothing happens without the will of God concerned (whether as first or secondary cause). While God never directly inspires men to wickedness, evil only exists because God permits it (in accordance with His plan and absolute sovereignty over the universe).

Therefore, we must understand that the corruptness of Leo X, and the resulting revolt of Luther … represented the eternal decree of God. Why is anyones guess??

Scripture should be understood in an objective way, and it is not amenable to subjective interpretation (that would cause all sorts of confusion within Christendom & God is not the author of confusion).
Hmmm, not sure that I agree with you orange on some things at least. If the bishops who attended and selected the canon were inspired by God, then why do some Protestants not agree with the full RCC canon? I seek enlightement, perhaps I misunderstand something.

I would accede that nothing happens without the will of God, but perhaps it is his will not to intervene directly to cause or not cause any particular thing. He speaks to all through the “small quiet voice within” but CHOOSES to refrain from interferring with free will choices that are contrary to his desires. He desires no doubt every human being to be in full communion with him now. He does not coerce that. So I would not agree that Leo’s corruptness or Luther’s revolt were part of God’s plan.

Don’t get me wrong, God has a plan I have no doubt, and it will appear in the fullness of time when each and every heart turns completely to him. I’m just not a big proponent of a meddling God since I find it not subject to being reconciled with free will.

I agree whole heartedly that scripture must be understood objectively. But I would argue we bring every tool at our disposal, as we discover them to understand the true intent and meaning of the writer. Earlier interpreters simply didn’t have those tools, nor did they have a very clear understanding of history and accuracy as we do today. Subjectivety comes into play when we refuse to examine scripture through the eyes of modern exegetes because we have too much invested in a earlier interpretation. That is in a handbag what is wrong with the RCC in my opinion. It is hogtied by its own historic pronouncements compounding it by suggesting that it cannot err. It leave very little room for new evidence.
 
That is precisely what you do. You let a group in a institution define scripture for you. The fact that pastorally, scripture can mean different things at different times, is its genius, and the very reason why some of us believe it to be inspired. That has nothing to do with the actual meaning. That is something that we uncover bit by bit over time. It is the work of well educated specialists. The Vatican employs a goodly number of them itself. It often doesn’t like what they produce.
The RCC did not write the bible. It certainly didn’t write the OT, and there are few who know who in fact wrote any of it. The NT was written by various people, many of them unknown. They were believers or followers in “The Way”. They attempted to in some cases right down 1. eye witness events they themselves saw, and/or 2. the recollections of what eye witnesses saw, and/or 3. The collected sayings and oral tradition that was being taught locally by various believers.

Not everyone taught or believed the same things, as Paul’s letters so clearly attest. Each “church” existing usually in homes of the believers, was an island to itself. There was not a lot of consistency in what was taught, and Paul did his best to correct obvious errors. These writings were passed around, copied, and recopied for centuries.

Finally Constantine ordered that the church convene and settle on a canon. The reason was that there were so many writings out there, they were inconsistent, and there were lots of different things being taught. A small percentage of the entire number of bishops attended and discussed and argued about it. Some writings were included, others, excluded, some like Hebrews barely passed into the canon.

The church is no better position to understand it than anyone else who has studied these things. As I said, if that were the case, and it was all determined, then there would not be people at work in the Vatican doing this right now.

The Church came into formal existence long long after the writings were done, in fact, there were nothing but copies of copies of copies. If what you say is true, then the “Church” would no doubt have the originals of its “own” writings.

I know this is impossible for you to accept, since it means that you can’t live with certainty. But there is nothing certain in life, and those who try to create certainty about God and salvation are doomed to failure. It is faith, not proof, and God means for it to be faith. What you wish to do is what every personality of a fundamentalist inclination wants to do, create a religion with rules and “truth” such that there is nothing left to do but obey as best you can, and the end is assured. Security is a illusion. There is no such thing. There is only faith.

I never said the RCC wrote the O.T. how could it, I said the RCC wrote the N,T. The degrees of Carthage 397, and 419 A.D. when all Christianity was RC reaffirmed by the council of Florence 1442 under Pope Eugenius IV and the Council of Trent 1546 these decrees of the RC and these only are the means and the chanel and the authority which God handed down his written word. The church existed before the bible she preserved and selected the books. And the Church and the Church alone has the right to claim them as her own and explain what they mean. And to have the gift of the HS does not mean that you have the Power to define scripture. Please again show me where the bible says read the bible and figure it out yourself. Not to go to the Church and the church leaders. Again please show me.
 
And yes it is impossible for me to accept the RCC did not write the N.T. Because to accept anything else would be a lie, Where do you say the N.T. came from if not from Tradition. No council was ever considered to be authoritative or binding unless it was confirmed by the Roman Pontiff.
 
I never said the RCC wrote the O.T. how could it, I said the RCC wrote the N,T. The degrees of Carthage 397, and 419 A.D. when all Christianity was RC reaffirmed by the council of Florence 1442 under Pope Eugenius IV and the Council of Trent 1546 these decrees of the RC and these only are the means and the chanel and the authority which God handed down his written word. The church existed before the bible she preserved and selected the books. And the Church and the Church alone has the right to claim them as her own and explain what they mean. And to have the gift of the HS does not mean that you have the Power to define scripture. Please again show me where the bible says read the bible and figure it out yourself. Not to go to the Church and the church leaders. Again please show me.
You said it wrote the bible. Last time I checked that included the OT as well as the NT. Note the date of your councils. The books ultimately included in the canon were written by 100 CE. All of Christianity, I would argue were not RC but believers in “the way” and teaching a lot of various things, not all of which were in agreement. That is why there was a call to gather and decide on a canon.

As I said, if the RCC wrote the NT, where are its originals? I don’t agree that the RCC existed from the start, but only that she gathered all power unto her as she put down all that objected as heretics.

It nowhere says not to either. I’m not in favor of solo interpretation, I find it generally wrong. But I deny perfectly that any church has some special power to define it for everyone else.

I do go to my church and it’s leaders since I expect them to be better versed than myself in scripture. They train for it. I merely study and read as best I can.

YOu must realize that no Protestant will agree with you that we must all rely on the RCC to interpret the bible. That is obviously not going to happen, and with good reason. It is unsupported by the scripture itself.
 
You said it wrote the bible. Last time I checked that included the OT as well as the NT. Note the date of your councils. The books ultimately included in the canon were written by 100 CE. All of Christianity, I would argue were not RC but believers in “the way” and teaching a lot of various things, not all of which were in agreement. That is why there was a call to gather and decide on a canon.

As I said, if the RCC wrote the NT, where are its originals? I don’t agree that the RCC existed from the start, but only that she gathered all power unto her as she put down all that objected as heretics.

It nowhere says not to either. I’m not in favor of solo interpretation, I find it generally wrong. But I deny perfectly that any church has some special power to define it for everyone else.

I do go to my church and it’s leaders since I expect them to be better versed than myself in scripture. They train for it. I merely study and read as best I can.

YOu must realize that no Protestant will agree with you that we must all rely on the RCC to interpret the bible. That is obviously not going to happen, and with good reason. It is unsupported by the scripture itself.
First of all, if it weren’t for the Catholic church, you wouldn’t even have a bible, since they COMPILED it in the year 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. Do you think it was just dropped down from heaven?
The Old Testament was written around the year 430 B.C. under Esdras and Nehemiah resting upon Josephus. The CC still compiled the Old and the New. Goes like this:
We Catholics, on the other hand, glory in having some third party to come between us and God, because God Himself has given it to us, namely the Catholic church, to teach us and to lead us to Him. We believe in the bible interpreted for us by that church, because God entrusted to her the bible as part of His Word, and gave His church a promise that she would never err in telling us what it means and explaining to us the ‘many things hard to be understood’, which St. Peter tells us are to be found within it.
Though there were as many million variations as there are thousands in the different copies of the bible, we should be still unmoved, for we have a ‘Teacher sent from God’, above and independent of all Scripture, who, assisted by the Holy Spirit, speaks with Divine Authority, and whose voice to us is the voice of God.
 
You said it wrote the bible. Last time I checked that included the OT as well as the NT. Note the date of your councils. The books ultimately included in the canon were written by 100 CE. All of Christianity, I would argue were not RC but believers in “the way” and teaching a lot of various things, not all of which were in agreement. That is why there was a call to gather and decide on a canon.

As I said, if the RCC wrote the NT, where are its originals? I don’t agree that the RCC existed from the start, but only that she gathered all power unto her as she put down all that objected as heretics.

It nowhere says not to either. I’m not in favor of solo interpretation, I find it generally wrong. But I deny perfectly that any church has some special power to define it for everyone else.

I do go to my church and it’s leaders since I expect them to be better versed than myself in scripture. They train for it. I merely study and read as best I can.

YOu must realize that no Protestant will agree with you that we must all rely on the RCC to interpret the bible. That is obviously not going to happen, and with good reason. It is unsupported by the scripture itself.
What are you talking about, you said that the RCC did not write the bible. I showed you that they did. Pretty much every protestant that I know 4 preachers personally I know, that agree that the Church wrote the bible. That if not for the CC there would not be a bible. I never said that protestants would agree that they cannot do SS, I know they do. Thats the problem. You can go to any RCC and you will find that same teaching’s because there can only be One truth.

There was no Church or bible before Jesus Christ. The Gospels and Epistles of the N.T. were read aloud to the comgregations just like the Church still does today. For goodness sakes most of those people could not even read. (what good would a bible do anyway).

You asked me where the CC got the N.T. Did you not claim that you went to a Catholic College? You mean to tell me that they did not teach you that the bible only existed in manuscripts? I can not believe that you were not taught that if you have this educational background you claim.

Here is the best part, you contradict yourself so bad, you judge me for following my Pope and the teachings of my church, (say I follow their teaching’s which I do not deny), but then turn around and say you do go to your church (they are better versed) What does that mean? They train for it? What do you think it takes to become a Priest. Do you not think that they are taught the word of God. How can you condem my Church and it not be versed as you say, but yours is? You make no sense. You say that you do not agree with SS, then you say You must do your thinking for yourself. Is not reading the bible and doing your thinking for yourself and not learning scripture according to the teachings of your Chruch’s teachings indeed SS. Could you explain to me the difference. Thank-you.
 
What are you talking about, you said that the RCC did not write the bible. I showed you that they did. Pretty much every protestant that I know 4 preachers personally I know, that agree that the Church wrote the bible.
What Church? Not the post-Reformation “Roman Catholic Church” obviously. The Bible was written by early believers in Jesus, most if not all of it before the term “Catholic Church” was first used by Ignatius of Antioch. I would argue that the term “Catholic Church” applies first and foremost to the Christian tradition that developed in the second to the fourth centuries, which is responsible for canonizing (not writing, unless you go with a very late date for certain books) the New Testament. We are all descendants of that Church, so the fact that that Catholic Church assembled (not wrote) the NT is not an automatic argument for any existing Christian body against any other one.

Edwin
 
However, part of being a Christian (including any church of England offshoot) is believing the historical Catholic Church (which canonized scripture) was inspired by the Holy Spirit (and that it became corrupt by the wicked affections of men, according to God’s decree).
What do you mean by “corrupt”? If you mean “corrupt in behavior,” then there was never a time when the Church was not to some extent corrupt (see 1 Corinthians). If you mean “having fundamentally corrupted the basic teachings of the Faith” then I deny that there is any theological or historical reason to believe that this happened. Indeed, admitting such a fundamental corruption ought to lead people to abandon Christianity altogether. There is no way you can call yourself a historic, orthodox Christian with any integrity and maintain that such a radical corruption occurred.

Edwin
 
But Jesus was not a failure and to even say such a thing is a terrible blasphemy.
That’s precisely Gottle’s point.
  1. Jesus was not a failure
  2. The same criteria the poster used to judge Luther a failure would also lead us to judge Jesus a failure
  3. Therefore Luther was not a failure.
Clearly the point that needs debating is point 2.

Edwin
 
What Church? Not the post-Reformation “Roman Catholic Church” obviously. The Bible was written by early believers in Jesus, most if not all of it before the term “Catholic Church” was first used by Ignatius of Antioch. I would argue that the term “Catholic Church” applies first and foremost to the Christian tradition that developed in the second to the fourth centuries, which is responsible for canonizing (not writing, unless you go with a very late date for certain books) the New Testament. We are all descendants of that Church, so the fact that that Catholic Church assembled (not wrote) the NT is not an automatic argument for any existing Christian body against any other one.

Edwin
Pardon me, Are you saying that the RCC were not early believers in Jesus. You can argue all you want the the Catholic Church does not apply to Christian Tradition. That is an argument you will lose. I will agree that we are all descendents of the same Church because there was only One true Church that had all of the Apostolic teaching, and there is still only one True Church Today. Was it or was it not the Catholic Church that Canonized Scripture was that not who composed the bible yes or no. Did the bible come from the books that came from Rome and without the RCC would there indeed be no bible. Yes or no?
 
Pardon me, Are you saying that the RCC were not early believers in Jesus.
I’m using the term “RCC” only for the body of Christians that came out of the Reformation united to the see of Rome. And I’m using the broader term “Catholic Church” only for those Christians who in the second century began using the term to define themselves over against other alleged believers in Jesus, and for those Christians who remain faithful to the basic beliefs and practices of that early Catholic Church and can legitimately claim historical descent from it. By this definition, the “RCC” is clearly Catholic, as are the Orthodox. Anglicans (except for the really liberal ones) are basically Catholic as well, with a few more qualifications, and Trinitarian Protestants as a whole can legitimately claim to be Catholic, though one can also legitimately challenge that claim. “Catholic” in short is a contested claim for any period later than the fourth century (since presumably the non-Chalcedonians also claim to be Catholic).

I recognize that my definitions are loaded with theological assumptions. So are yours. I’m trying to be honest with mine instead of sneaking theological arguments in under cover of stating “historical fact.”
Was it or was it not the Catholic Church that Canonized Scripture was that not who composed the bible yes or no.
The Catholic Church as I have defined it above canonized Scripture, yes.
Did the bible come from the books that came from Rome
I find no evidence that the NT books as a whole “came from Rome,” although Rome certainly was in agreement with the final canon.
and without the RCC would there indeed be no bible.
As I have defined the RCC above, this is clearly false. But I recognize that you will define it differently (and other Catholics will howl in protest to my using the term “RCC” at all).

Edwin
 
Contarini,

Isn’t the Anglican communion having a meltdown of sorts? I’m not really certain of how the Anglicans are organized however its seems the episcopals in the US are distancing themselves somewhat from England by taking a more liberal agenda with regards to homosexuality and the clergy. Some episcopals in the US are aligning themselves with African churches because of their conservative approach. The Archbishop of Canterbury seems to say some things that put a negative slant on the church there. Maybe he’s taken out of context but hasn’t the roles been reducing for membership in England?
 
Contarini,

Isn’t the Anglican communion having a meltdown of sorts?
Of sorts, yes. Whether this will increase or decrease the number of people ultimately identifying themselves as Anglicans I don’t know. But it’s certainly not a good thing for those of us who care about the unity of Christians. At this point the position of Canterbury is a bit unclear–the Archbishop has quite rightly devoted himself to maintaining unity, so that both conservatives and liberals are quite annoyed with him (he probably agrees with the liberals on the specific issue of homosexuality, but unlike most of the liberals he has a robust understanding of tradition and the authority of the Church and doesn’t identify his personal theological views with the Holy Spirit). But clearly we have a split between American conservatives, backed by many African provinces and other conservative parts of the worldwide Communion, and the national church. Many of us are still caught in the middle, though–my own bishop disapproves of what the national church is doing but does not want to be part of a schism, and I support him in that.

As for England: yes, church membership in Europe in general is declining. I believe that British Catholics aren’t doing too well either, though they are doing much better than Anglicans on the whole.

Edwin
 
Of sorts, yes. Whether this will increase or decrease the number of people ultimately identifying themselves as Anglicans I don’t know. But it’s certainly not a good thing for those of us who care about the unity of Christians. At this point the position of Canterbury is a bit unclear–the Archbishop has quite rightly devoted himself to maintaining unity, so that both conservatives and liberals are quite annoyed with him (he probably agrees with the liberals on the specific issue of homosexuality, but unlike most of the liberals he has a robust understanding of tradition and the authority of the Church and doesn’t identify his personal theological views with the Holy Spirit). But clearly we have a split between American conservatives, backed by many African provinces and other conservative parts of the worldwide Communion, and the national church. Many of us are still caught in the middle, though–my own bishop disapproves of what the national church is doing but does not want to be part of a schism, and I support him in that.

As for England: yes, church membership in Europe in general is declining. I believe that British Catholics aren’t doing too well either, though they are doing much better than Anglicans on the whole.

Edwin
With the increase of Asians in England I suppose Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK. Which is sad for the country once a stalwart of Christianity and Christian behavior. What do you attribute the decline of Christianity in England?
 
I’m using the term “RCC” only for the body of Christians that came out of the Reformation united to the see of Rome. And I’m using the broader term “Catholic Church” only for those Christians who in the second century began using the term to define themselves over against other alleged believers in Jesus, and for those Christians who remain faithful to the basic beliefs and practices of that early Catholic Church and can legitimately claim historical descent from it. By this definition, the “RCC” is clearly Catholic, as are the Orthodox. Anglicans (except for the really liberal ones) are basically Catholic as well, with a few more qualifications, and Trinitarian Protestants as a whole can legitimately claim to be Catholic, though one can also legitimately challenge that claim. “Catholic” in short is a contested claim for any period later than the fourth century (since presumably the non-Chalcedonians also claim to be Catholic).

I recognize that my definitions are loaded with theological assumptions. So are yours. I’m trying to be honest with mine instead of sneaking theological arguments in under cover of stating “historical fact.”

The Catholic Church as I have defined it above canonized Scripture, yes.

I find no evidence that the NT books as a whole “came from Rome,” although Rome certainly was in agreement with the final canon.

As I have defined the RCC above, this is clearly false. But I recognize that you will define it differently (and other Catholics will howl in protest to my using the term “RCC” at all).

Edwin
Well the point is that the books did come from the Church in Rome and the Church did have the Cannon of Scripture and none of this was done without the authority of the Pope.
And it was the Roman Church that did indeed write the bible. What I mean by that is put it together. Without the Church again there would be no bible! I still stand by my words.
 

That’s Jesus taken care of - for he was about as abject a failure as anyone could ask for.​

How do you figure since He established the biggest Church in the world… and also the fastest growing (last time i heard)… a Church that has lasted since He went to Heaven… No other “human” institution has lasted that long… except the Jewish religion, but that is on the declined… totally… I’m no spring chicken and yet i know NO Jews (religion wise)… I only know OF one… However, i know of a LOT of Christians… Almost everyone i know calls himself Christian or at least "leans’ in that direction…

How you measure failure is beyond me…
Is there a Christian reply to that ? Certainly - but your logic forbids you to use it. If you do use it, you leave a loop-hole for defending Luther’s work.
i have no idea what this means…
 
Well the point is that the books did come from the Church in Rome
In what sense? You can repeat this all you like, but if you have no actual argument to make I wonder why you bother?
and the Church did have the Cannon of Scripture and none of this was done without the authority of the Pope.
What evidence do you have that the Pope’s authority made a decisive difference? Are you talking about the so-called “Council of Rome” under Pope Damasus, for which the evidence is very fragmentary and problematic?
And it was the Roman Church that did indeed write the bible. What I mean by that is put it together.
If you mean the particular church at Rome, then this is clearly false. If you mean the universal Church in communion with Rome, then obviously this is true, but this does not prove that the See of Rome has the role within that Church that you claim for him, or that your present Communion is identical to the early Catholic Church in every respect just because you are in communion with Rome as they were.
Without the Church again there would be no bible!
I don’t dispute that.

Edwin
 
With the increase of Asians in England I suppose Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK. Which is sad for the country once a stalwart of Christianity and Christian behavior. What do you attribute the decline of Christianity in England?
Not just England–Europe as a whole.

I don’t think I can answer that question here. There are many, many factors involved.

Edwin
 
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