The Protestant Meltdown

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Hesychios said:
Triumphalism is distasteful.

It is hubris.
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It is also OTCA’s modus operandi. She seems to enjoy it at whatever expense.

You know, OTCA, 'fessing up is hard to do… but 'fessing up is good for you.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
**## **FYI, I’m not a Protestant. Of course that statement can be denied, & very easily too. It is perfectly conceivable, logically & historically, that the Church was Catholic, not because it excluded everything Protestant, but because it did not. What we call Protestantism, would, on this hypothesis, be little more than the taking shape in the 16th century, in more or less organised social forms, of parts of Christianity which had previously been indissolubly connected with the part of Christianity governed from Rome. In that sense, Protestantism is as old as Catholicism - & because this “Protestant” instinct (for lack of a better word) was not yet distinct from the rest of “Catholicism”, & would not be distinct until about 1530, St. Ignatius of Antioch is in this sense as much a Protestant as he is Catholic or Orthodox or whatever: none of the sectarian uses of those words applied in his time; so all those words can be applied to him. St. Patrick is as Orthodox as Roman; the Orthodox don’t avoid him; he lived before the Great Schism, so he “belongs to” them as much as to us.

ISTM that the only benefit of a Catholic upbringing is a total inability to understand or sympathise with any POV not current in the CC. It may well have certain advantages - I am very glad that it was not my experience.

There is nothing in the passage, nor in the NT, to suggest (let alone spell out in so many words), the interpretation you put on the passage. Other interpretations are possible than that which makes the passage a proof-text for Catholicism. There is no explanation of what is meant by “prevailing” - does it mean:​

  • The gates of hell will attack but not overcome the Church
  • the gates of hell will not be able to withstand attack by the Church
Either is possible. And, does the promise of Jesus mean that:
  • the church will be victorious in each & every contest from first to last
  • the church may lose a great many of its battles, but will be preserved so as to overcome in the end
Again, either is possible.

And what is meant by “church” ? It is not clear from the context whether the followers of Jesus were to be one group among many within Judaism - or, whether he meant, from the beginning, to found a group within Judaism but not confined to it.

Again, either is possible. It seems to be taken for granted that
  • the Church = the Church with the Pope of Rome in it - & that
  • no other body can be intended; IOW, that the CwPoR is guaranteed to endure,
  • & to be replaced by none.
There’s a great deal in the passage which is simply ignored when it is used as a Catholic proof-text; and while this may not be a problem for one who is concerned only to show that the CC is Top - or Only - Church, it is most certainly a problem if one is concerned, not to show that the CC is alone right, but to know what in fact the passage means as a whole, without having the interests & doctrines of later generations imposed upon it.

The CC, like all Churches, is a broken reed, apart from Christ - there is nothing in it, nothing at all, to be trusted or relied on. Don’t take my word for it: I’m doing no more than paraphrase something in the Liturgy - to be specific, this:​

Without your divine will*****

there is nothing in man,
nothing is harmless.

*****Literally: “Without Thy Godhead”.

It makes no sense whatever to exalt any Church: in themselves, they are dust & ashes. (I notice that you say nothing about the rest of that post - if** I** were a Protestant, I’d be tempted to think it was more favourable to the CC than to Protestantism.)
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Matthew 18:15
1 Tim 3:15
Ephes 3:10
Acts 2:47
1 Cor 14:12
The bible also says to the bishops that the Holy spirit has appointed rule the church of God Acts 20:28
Acts 20:28
Ephes 5:24
etc…
Since all these books and much ore mentions the church, the church had to have been in existence already for years before they were written.
The bible is
Oral Tradition written down
There was no Sola Scripture back then
 
BareKnuckler said:
How come Baptists aren’t on that list? I am pretty sure they are the largest Protestant denomination in the world aren’t that? As a former baptist, I can admit, in our church, we were growing rather large, like: Some churches have just a bunch of old people (my grandpa’s church before he died) was all old people, like 5 kids, my church is kinda opposite. Out of the like 150 people, I’d estimate: 30 (41-90), 100 (20-40), 20 (0-18), and their are about 5-6 women that are pregnant, usually always lol, its rather funny, most of the people at our church know exactly what to do if she complains about a pregnancy thing, we’ve had to do all kinds of **** there, but anyways, ya, our church is growing, I’d say it will be larger by the time I am 18, then it is now, by probably 30-50 people at the minimum.
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But Baptists ARE on the list since they are a Protestant sect started in the 16th century from England. Any denomination that is not in accordance with the Catholic church in which Christ founded, is a Protestant. They P-R-O-T-E-S-T the church which Jesus Christ established.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
They P-R-O-T-E-S-T the church which Jesus Christ established.
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Sweetie, I hate to break it to you but a lot of them aren’t “protesting” anything. I know its en vouge to think so, but not everything you read or hear is true 🙂 I was raised fundamentalist and was basically unaware about what Catholic Church taught until I met and married a Catholic. How can you be protesting something that isn’t even a blip on your radar?

Why are you so hostile? I find your post about not want to say you’re right but wanting to welcome peple home very suspicious considering the tone and attitude you set this thread with.

And, according to your logic, the gates will not prevail against the Church so why are you so worried about Protestants? If they want to come to the Catholic Church, great, the numbers can increase. If not, that’s ok too. I am having a hrd tim eunderstanding your motivation and point in doing this.

I hope I hear from you regarding these questions.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Contarini, let me give you an example, say, we’ll pick the Anglican Religion. The question in point for them, as well as for others was the question of authority.
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I could quibble with some details of what you say, but I don’t disagree with it in principle. However, you miss the point of what I’m trying to say, and as soon as you use the word “authority” you lose me. I agree that Anglicans (and other Protestants) have never come up with an adequate doctrine of authority. Our best shot has been to say that we are one national expression of the Catholic Church–but since we have no accountability to any organ that can speak for the Catholic Church, we’ve essentially made up Catholicism as we went along (whether in a “Reformed” version or an “Anglo-Catholic” or a liberal version or some combination of all the above).

But that’s got nothing to do with “breaking up.” “Breaking up,” in churches as in romantic relationships, is about real people. And that’s what is missing from your posts and from the posts of other conservative, triumphalist Catholics on this forum. The Church you believe in seems to be an invisible, abstract Church of ideas and institutions, in which the only flesh-and-blood people who matter (well, at least among those still in this mortal life) are the Pope and bishops, and that only because of their office.

That is not the Church I believe in. That is not the Catholic Church of the Creeds. The Church is made up of real people. Institutions, doctrines, apostolic succession, all the rest of it are important. But when the real communities of people lack something that they need (as we clearly do), the answer is to try to restore the lack, not to break up the existing communities in the name of some lofty spiritual ideal. That’s trying to undo the Reformation by repeating its most basic error.

The main point of difference between us is whether unity or authority comes first. You seem to think that we start with authority and build unity on that (so that “unity” really means “unity with some principle of authority”). I think that we start with unity and seek for proper authority to guarantee unity.

Edwin
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
But Baptists ARE on the list since they are a Protestant sect started in the 16th century from England. Any denomination that is not in accordance with the Catholic church in which Christ founded, is a Protestant. They P-R-O-T-E-S-T the church which Jesus Christ established.
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Baptists are found on Table 3 of the full report. They are lumped together which probably does not give an accurate picture. Certain denominations are growing while others are shrinking.
 
Contarini said:
I could quibble with some details of what you say, but I don’t disagree with it in principle. However, you miss the point of what I’m trying to say, and as soon as you use the word “authority” you lose me. I agree that Anglicans (and other Protestants) have never come up with an adequate doctrine of authority. Our best shot has been to say that we are one national expression of the Catholic Church–but since we have no accountability to any organ that can speak for the Catholic Church, we’ve essentially made up Catholicism as we went along (whether in a “Reformed” version or an “Anglo-Catholic” or a liberal version or some combination of all the above).

But that’s got nothing to do with “breaking up.” “Breaking up,” in churches as in romantic relationships, is about real people. And that’s what is missing from your posts and from the posts of other conservative, triumphalist Catholics on this forum. The Church you believe in seems to be an invisible, abstract Church of ideas and institutions, in which the only flesh-and-blood people who matter (well, at least among those still in this mortal life) are the Pope and bishops, and that only because of their office.

That is not the Church I believe in. That is not the Catholic Church of the Creeds. The Church is made up of real people. Institutions, doctrines, apostolic succession, all the rest of it are important. But when the real communities of people lack something that they need (as we clearly do), the answer is to try to restore the lack, not to break up the existing communities in the name of some lofty spiritual ideal. That’s trying to undo the Reformation by repeating its most basic error.

The main point of difference between us is whether unity or authority comes first. You seem to think that we start with authority and build unity on that (so that “unity” really means “unity with some principle of authority”). I think that we start with unity and seek for proper authority to guarantee unity.

Edwin
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It starts with Jesus Christ, then in turn given to Peter who Jesus gave the authority for his church. Do you think Jesus would leave us abandoned? If Jesus hadn’t done this, we’d have confusion and chaos like the 30,000 denominations out there.
 
Lil_Cat said:
Sweetie, I hate to break it to you but a lot of them aren’t “protesting” anything. I know its en vouge to think so, but not everything you read or hear is true 🙂 I was raised fundamentalist and was basically unaware about what Catholic Church taught until I met and married a Catholic. How can you be protesting something that isn’t even a blip on your radar?

Why are you so hostile? I find your post about not want to say you’re right but wanting to welcome peple home very suspicious considering the tone and attitude you set this thread with.

And, according to your logic, the gates will not prevail against the Church so why are you so worried about Protestants? If they want to come to the Catholic Church, great, the numbers can increase. If not, that’s ok too. I am having a hrd tim eunderstanding your motivation and point in doing this.

I hope I hear from you regarding these questions.
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Well “sweetie”, (I know when someone calls me sweetie, they are quite upset). One who is not following the teachings of Jesus Christ **in accordance with his Holy Catholic church **are protesting the Catholic church’s teachings. Just like Luther, Wycliff and the other heretics did. Protestanism started from Luther in which Luther “protested” his own Catholic church. Like it or not, Protestant means to protest. Some Protestants don’t even know what they are protesting.
And what about you? I have no hostility toward anyone nor anything. I am proud to be called a Roman Catholic who is devout and defends Jesus Christ. What about you?
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Well “sweetie”, (I know when someone calls me sweetie, they are quite upset). One who is not following the teachings of Jesus Christ **in accordance with his Holy Catholic church **are protesting the Catholic church’s teachings. Just like Luther, Wycliff and the other heretics did. Protestanism started from Luther in which Luther “protested” his own Catholic church. Like it or not, Protestant means to protest. Some Protestants don’t even know what they are protesting.
And what about you? I have no hostility toward anyone nor anything. I am proud to be called a Roman Catholic who is devout and defends Jesus Christ. What about you?
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No, not upset, just trying to lighten the mood a little 🙂 Besides, I think it was mentioned that you were a girl. If not, I apologize. Just stick dude in where I said sweetie.

If you are so insistant on labels, I was the first person signed up for RCIA next year at the parish I am attending. So if you’re going to try to paint me as your enemy, that’s all on you and not correct.

You do have hostility. Like it or not, that’s how you come across. I was just trying to point out that I know for a fact that not every Protestant is protesting something. If you are raised in that tradition then that’s pretty much all you know. I don’t think its fair to judge evreyone based on what a few people are doing when they bash the Church. If you want to, by all means do so. Besides, how can you be protesting something and not know it, per your response above?

And you never answered me about why you are so upset when Jesus specifically said the gates of hell will not prevail.
 
Lil_Cat said:
No, not upset, just trying to lighten the mood a little 🙂 Besides, I think it was mentioned that you were a girl. If not, I apologize. Just stick dude in where I said sweetie.

If you are so insistant on labels, I was the first person signed up for RCIA next year at the parish I am attending. So if you’re going to try to paint me as your enemy, that’s all on you and not correct.

You do have hostility. Like it or not, that’s how you come across. I was just trying to point out that I know for a fact that not every Protestant is protesting something. If you are raised in that tradition then that’s pretty much all you know. I don’t think its fair to judge evreyone based on what a few people are doing when they bash the Church. If you want to, by all means do so. Besides, how can you be protesting something and not know it, per your response above?

And you never answered me about why you are so upset when Jesus specifically said the gates of hell will not prevail.
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Where am I upset in what Jesus said? :confused: I know what Jesus said, he meant it for his church, the church you will be soon entering. I am happy for you that you took this step, it is from the Holy Spirit. There are just people out there who are Protestant, and in my many years of conversation with some of them, they say they really are protesting the church, but just don’t know why…go figure.
God Bless you on your journey.🙂 and I am a girl.😉
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Where am I upset in what Jesus said? :confused: I know what Jesus said, he meant it for his church, the church you will be soon entering. I am happy for you that you took this step, it is from the Holy Spirit. There are just people out there who are Protestant, and in my many years of conversation with some of them, they say they really are protesting the church, but just don’t know why…go figure.
God Bless you on your journey.🙂 and I am a girl.😉
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This thread coupled with the other one just rubs me the wrong way. While I appreciate your kind words, I also think its interesting that your tone changed towards me when you found out I was going through RCIA next year. This is exactly what I was talking about with the hostility.

I just see too many thread on here beamoaning the fact that someone is saying something about the Church and people seem surprised by it. Or in this case, hopeful that the Protestant churches fail. I can guarantee you that if I was brought up athiest and not Protestant then I would not be in the place I am now. In my situation, I see it as a stepping stone to Catholicism.

Anyway, I’m done with this thread now.
 
Lil_Cat said:
This thread coupled with the other one just rubs me the wrong way. While I appreciate your kind words, I also think its interesting that your tone changed towards me when you found out I was going through RCIA next year. This is exactly what I was talking about with the hostility.

I just see too many thread on here beamoaning the fact that someone is saying something about the Church and people seem surprised by it. Or in this case, hopeful that the Protestant churches fail. I can guarantee you that if I was brought up athiest and not Protestant then I would not be in the place I am now. In my situation, I see it as a stepping stone to Catholicism.

Anyway, I’m done with this thread now.
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I wholeheartedly agree. No Catholic ought to be happy to see other Christian bodies faltering. It’s crowing to do so. What I bemoan (great word that) is the general failing of religious faith everywhere. People are becoming more and more secularized. We are losing Catholics because of this just as much as Protestants are.

What I have maintained, and still say, is that the Church Christ founded has the charism of indefeatability. It may wax and wane and may come down to just a few thousand, but it will survive. It will storm the gates of hell because it’s Founder has defeated hell.

Many religions are ancient ones and are still ongoing, for which I am truly thankful. Muslims haven’t yet adopted Enlightenment principles so they are thriving, but in any society that has religious faith is declining. I’m with them there. If only we Catholics were are ardent (if not, as in some followers of Islam, violent) we would see conversions and a restoration of Western society, but most Catholics are only nominal or confused ones who follow the treads of the world as much as anyone else.

God may let this go on until Christ returns or he may send us a revival of faith. If he doesn’t send us a revival of faith I see the end as being within one or two generations at the most, and I think I’m being generous in my estimation. It isn’t that we Christians of various denominations need to “get together despite our differences”. That’s been tried over the last 50 years and utterly failed–it’s only led to more watering down of faith not bolstering of faith. What we need is to evangelize our Protestant brethren in LOVE and RESPECT for all the good they bring with them into the Church.

CAF is one of those efforts to do this. It isn’t because we think Catholicism some kind of magical, perfect body better than all other Christians. It is merely because it is the Church Christ founded and therefore the one in which the fullness of truth subsists. No crowing is needed to state that fact.
 
Lil_Cat said:
This thread coupled with the other one just rubs me the wrong way. While I appreciate your kind words, I also think its interesting that your tone changed towards me when you found out I was going through RCIA next year. This is exactly what I was talking about with the hostility.

I just see too many thread on here beamoaning the fact that someone is saying something about the Church and people seem surprised by it. Or in this case, hopeful that the Protestant churches fail. I can guarantee you that if I was brought up athiest and not Protestant then I would not be in the place I am now. In my situation, I see it as a stepping stone to Catholicism.

Anyway, I’m done with this thread now.
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Sorry, I guess being nice is something you’re not use to…I take it back. And it had nothing to do with RCIA. No hostility. Just kindness.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
An ARIS Survey recently unearthed a very worrisome trend for some Protestant denominations. Of the drop in the percentage of Christians since 1990, “Ninety percent of the decline comes from non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, and the United Church of Christ.” These all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now just constitutes at just 12.9%.
The Catholic share of the population actually edged up from 2001 to 2008.
Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you.😉
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What are the stats of the other protestant denominations? I would venture significant growth in the Pentecostal groups. How about the fundalmentalist groups?
 
sambos671 said:
What are the stats of the other protestant denominations? I would venture significant growth in the Pentecostal groups. How about the fundalmentalist groups?
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She is counting on the opinion writer in the other thread and trust that they will give up and quit within 10 years eventhough a great number of people coming to Christ today are because of their efforts.
 
4Squarebaby said:
She is counting on the opinion writer in the other thread and trust that they will give up and quit within 10 years eventhough a great number of people coming to Christ today are because of their efforts.
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I’m sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread thru for two reasons 1) I’m lazy. 2) Its a lot which then you would have to refer to 1. That being the case I don’t get your referrence.
 
4Squarebaby said:
She is counting on the opinion writer in the other thread and trust that they will give up and quit within 10 years eventhough a great number of people coming to Christ today are because of their efforts.
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People today are coming to Christ because of the truths of the Catholic church in which he founded.
 
I think the word protestant probably fit best when the movement started but some prefer non Catholic for general grouping today. Some of the sects, not many but some, don’t even qualify as minimally Christian in the opinion of many theologians. Others, such as my son’s pastor (unaligned non Catholic) is almost…not quite but almost, ready for RCIA.😉
 
pismopal said:
I think the word protestant probably fit best when the movement started but some prefer non Catholic for general grouping today.
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But what about the Orthodox?

I think “Protestant” is a term we must continue to use. The denial of the word by many distant descendants of the Reformation is part of their general denial of history. And if we are to be faithful to them, we must continue using the word even if they don’t like it (just as I sometimes have to say “Roman Catholic” even though some in communion with Rome don’t like that term). On the other end of Protestantism, many Anglicans claim not to be Protestants. Catholics need to understand that in both cases (Anglicans or radical/nondenom Protestants) the word “Protestant” doesn’t best describe how people see themselves theologically. But in both cases it says something important historically and you can’t let us get away with denying it (Anglicanism exists as a separate communion because of the Reformation, and much of Anglo-Catholicism is a massive and elegant attempt to deny this clear historical truth).

Edwin
 
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