The Protestant Meltdown

[ufamtobie]

An ARIS Survey recently unearthed a very worrisome trend for some Protestant denominations. Of the drop in the percentage of Christians since 1990, “Ninety percent of the decline comes from non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, and the United Church of Christ.” These all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now just constitutes at just 12.9%.

The Catholic share of the population actually edged up from 2001 to 2008.
Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you.

Truth is the Meltdown started when the reformation began. If Martin Luther could of seen the future of his mistake of the now 30,000 protestant churches that have diferent bible interpretation, Im sure he is rolling over and over in his grave.

Ufamtobie

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Truth is the Meltdown started when the reformation began. If Martin Luther could of seen the future of his mistake of the now 30,000 protestant churches that have diferent bible interpretation, Im sure he is rolling over and over in his grave.

Ufamtobie

l

Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end.

 

[O.S.Luke]

l

Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end.

Where in the world did you read that? What CREDIBLE source, OTCA? That’s one of the oldest urban legends ever.

You are full of it, ma’am. That’s dishonest apologetics - and discredits anything you’ve ever said. Where do you get this stuff?!? Will you do ANYTHING to make your point?!?

O+

 

[rinnie]

Where in the world did you read that? What CREDIBLE source, OTCA? That’s one of the oldest urban legends ever.

You are full of it, ma’am. That’s dishonest apologetics - and discredits anything you’ve ever said. Where do you get this stuff?!? Will you do ANYTHING to make your point?!?

O+

What he is saying is true. I will tell you what. Go to someone of the Lutheran faith. Ask them. I never knew how much Luther did indeed keep the faith in according to the Blessed Mother until I learned it from them. They said that they are as true to the Blessed Mother as the RC. I will admit of was shocked. And very pleased. So instead of calling someone dishonest investigate this, then come back and tell us what you have learned. You will indeed found out luther was praying to the Blessed Mother and asking for her intercession.

 

[O.S.Luke]

From a Lutheran website:

I read a book which said that in the early days of the Lutheran Church that Lutherans prayed to Mary and still retained many Catholic beliefs. I also heard that when Luther died, he was buried with rosary beads in his hands. Any truth to all this?

The Lutheran Church did not come into existence fully developed. The more that Martin Luther and other reformers studied Scripture, the more clearly they understood what God had commanded. Therefore, it is not surprising that some would say that “early” Lutherans retained many of their old practices. The question to ask is “when” is “early”? One might also ask, how long did they retain the practice after they discovered it was contrary to God’s Word?

Lutherans grew out of many practices as they discovered they were not in keeping with God’s Word. For example, in 1517 Luther prepared his “95 Theses”. This document was written to deal with the abuses connected with the sale of indulgences. There are many other issues mentioned in these theses, prayer to saints and purgatory, for example, that Luther does not dispute at this time. As Luther continued his study of God’s Word, it became clear to him that these practices were not scriptural. By 1520, Luther was already rejecting many of these teachings, including the sacramental system which the Catholic Church had developed over the centuries.

The situation in the “early” Lutheran Church demonstrates the need we all have for continuing to study the Word. We are confident that the Holy Spirit works through that Word and strengthens us in our faith and in our understanding of God’s will.

As far as the matter of Luther being buried with a rosary, I have never heard that nor have I read that in any biography of Luther.

I checked Luther’s writings and found that references to rosaries are not uncommon. However, the references are usually negative. In a sermon at Weimar in 1522, Luther was talking about how one is saved through faith in Christ. In connection with a monk and his vows, he states, “And even if he brought with him to Christ a whole cloakful of rosaries, it would not save him” (Luther’s Works, American Edition, volume 51, page 116). In his 1519 “An Exposition of the Lord’s Prayer for Simple Laymen,” he writes, “Meanwhile, another person stands in the church, turns the pages of his prayerbook, counts his beads, almost rattling them, while his mind wanders from the confession on his lips. This is not praying” (LW, 42, 23). Luther in his writings also directs criticism at those who carry holy pictures, prayer books, rosaries, etc., as amulets to ward off harm and danger.

Given Luther’s negative references to rosaries, I would be skeptical of any notion that Luther requested to be buried with a rosary. I would also seriously doubt that any of his friends would have placed one in his coffin.

Seems like at least two Lutherans disagree. This urban legend (about the rosary) has been around a while. A good and credible source is Franz Posset’s Martin Luther on Deësis: His Rejection of the Artistic Representation of Jesus, John and Mary,” in Luther Digest, Vol. 7 (Can be found at Crestwood: Luther Academy, 1999), pp. 161-163. Another Posset source: Martin Luther and Bernhard of Clairvaux (Kalamazoo: Cistercian Publications, 1999, pp. 315-339). Luther praying the rosary and being buried with one makes a great story, but it’s just not true.

That being said, I use an Anglican rosary. And I am not the biggest Luther fan in the world. But telling an untruth about Luther to make one’s point is dishonest apologetics.

O+

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

These are NOT untruths. But facts. Maybe it’s just too hard for you to accept that Luther did love the Catholic church. Remember, he was already Catholic before it all happened.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

From a Lutheran website:

Seems like at least two Lutherans disagree. This urban legend (about the rosary) has been around a while. A good and credible source is Franz Posset’s Martin Luther on Deësis: His Rejection of the Artistic Representation of Jesus, John and Mary,” in Luther Digest, Vol. 7 (Can be found at Crestwood: Luther Academy, 1999), pp. 161-163. Another Posset source: Martin Luther and Bernhard of Clairvaux (Kalamazoo: Cistercian Publications, 1999, pp. 315-339). Luther praying the rosary and being buried with one makes a great story, but it’s just not true.

That being said, I use an Anglican rosary. And I am not the biggest Luther fan in the world. But telling an untruth about Luther to make one’s point is dishonest apologetics.

O+

I truly don’t understand this constant necessity at one-up-manship. It’s so childish. So what if Luther did feel that way? What difference does it make today? About anything? I too am no fan of Luther, and considered him at the end rather mad and his determination of “predestination” somewhat self serving as I understand it. Still his claims against the RCC were more than legitimate and most have since been changed to reflect his complaints.

I continue to wonder why any of this matters. I would assume, apparently wrongly that ALL Christians would be happy to uphold all other Christians but instead we see this as someone called it triumphalist behavior on the part of some. I’m rather dumbfounded by it.

What was set up to “defend the faith” has become pure attack for pure pleasure it seems. Those who claimed to have been unfairly attacked have learned to attack even better than those they would defend against. It often happens that way, but it still is so very unChristian in concept and its use.

 

[sambos671]

I truly don’t understand this constant necessity at one-up-manship. It’s so childish. So what if Luther did feel that way? What difference does it make today? About anything? I too am no fan of Luther, and considered him at the end rather mad and his determination of “predestination” somewhat self serving as I understand it. Still his claims against the RCC were more than legitimate and most have since been changed to reflect his complaints.

I continue to wonder why any of this matters. I would assume, apparently wrongly that ALL Christians would be happy to uphold all other Christians but instead we see this as someone called it triumphalist behavior on the part of some. I’m rather dumbfounded by it.

What was set up to “defend the faith” has become pure attack for pure pleasure it seems. Those who claimed to have been unfairly attacked have learned to attack even better than those they would defend against. It often happens that way, but it still is so very unChristian in concept and its use.

Once again I’m right and you’re wrong. I win.

I think someone put it to me succinctly. Jesus really simplified things. We kind of complicated it. To think that Canon Law is twice the size of the bible is amazing. Kind of remenisent of the Jews of Jesus’ day with their “hedge” of protection around the Law. I wonder if we do that now.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Once again I’m right and you’re wrong. I win.

I think someone put it to me succinctly. Jesus really simplified things. We kind of complicated it. To think that Canon Law is twice the size of the bible is amazing. Kind of remenisent of the Jews of Jesus’ day with their “hedge” of protection around the Law. I wonder if we do that now.

I guess I’m not getting your meaning? Your response doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what I said. Enlighten me! LOL

 

[O.S.Luke]

These are NOT untruths. But facts. Maybe it’s just too hard for you to accept that Luther did love the Catholic church. Remember, he was already Catholic before it all happened.

Ok, OTCA. S-L-O-W-L-Y. You said earlier:

Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end.

Where is your FACTUAL information on this? This is what I was challenging you on.

I am well aware Luther grew up Catholic. But that is a red herring when looking at what I asked you to prove. Where is your factual information that Luther died saying the Rosary at the end of his life? This is my question. I can’t find a Catholic source, or any other reliable source, anywhere, that acknowledges this.

All you have to do it cite a reliable source, and I will apologize and recant.

O+

And btw… if it was too late to recant (as you said it was), why would Luther say the rosary? What good would it do?!?

 

[rinnie]

Ok, OTCA. S-L-O-W-L-Y. You said earlier:

Where is your FACTUAL information on this? This is what I was challenging you on.

I am well aware Luther grew up Catholic. But that is a red herring when looking at what I asked you to prove. Where is your factual information that Luther died saying the Rosary at the end of his life? This is my question. I can’t find a Catholic source, or any other reliable source, anywhere, that acknowledges this.

All you have to do it cite a reliable source, and I will apologize and recant.

O+

And btw… if it was too late to recant (as you said it was), why would Luther say the rosary? What good would it do?!?

I think now that we are comming upon Holy Week we should on Concentrate on the Cross and the suffering the Blessed Mother did. If you have a problem with accepting that Luther did indeed call out to the Blessed Mother at the time of his death, thats okay. But why not just start a new thread. I am sure you will find the answer that you are looking for. Then many from the Lutheran faith can also assist you in your search. God Bless you and keep us all close to him upon this very Holy Season comming upon us.

 

[Mickey]

Where is your FACTUAL information on this? This is what I was challenging you on.

I am well aware Luther grew up Catholic. But that is a red herring when looking at what I asked you to prove. Where is your factual information that Luther died saying the Rosary at the end of his life? This is my question. I can’t find a Catholic source, or any other reliable source, anywhere, that acknowledges this.

All you have to do it cite a reliable source, and I will apologize and recant.

O+

O.S. Luke is correct. It is an urban legend. It is simply not true. Luke is not trying to one-up anyone. He is simply asking for some proof. There is none.

And that is a fact.

 

[rinnie]

O.S. Luke is correct. It is an urban legend. It is simply not true. Luke is not trying to one-up anyone. He is simply asking for some proof. There is none.

And that is a fact.

Mickey, how can you be sure though? This is why I am asking. Luther did indeed love the Blessed Mother? Do you not agree? And did history not reveal that Luther did indeed believe in intercession with the Blessed Mother? Now with those facts alone, could that not be enough on the positive side that he did indeed pray the rosary? I will admit I never really studied Luther’s life much, but from what I have studied he did indeed believe in intercession of the Blessed Mother. Do you agree with that?

 

[rinnie]

Also wasn’t it said that Luther adhered to Marian decrees of Eucemenical councils dogmas of the Church?

If this is indeed true, I can’t see how that it itself could not be a good defense that it could be true?

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, how can you be sure though? This is why I am asking. Luther did indeed love the Blessed Mother? Do you not agree? And did history not reveal that Luther did indeed believe in intercession with the Blessed Mother? Now with those facts alone, could that not be enough on the positive side that he did indeed pray the rosary? I will admit I never really studied Luther’s life much, but from what I have studied he did indeed believe in intercession of the Blessed Mother. Do you agree with that?

I am not a huge Luther supporter but I have study a bit of his life. I know that he believed that Our Lady was a perpetual virgin, and I also knew that he grew further away from some of his Latin Catholic beliefs with time. I am not familiar with his views on intercesion.

But a statement was thrown out there that, " Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end."

To make such a statement requires proof. I have researched these allegations in the past and I have never found such proof. I challenge anyone to find such proof.

 

[rinnie]

I am not a huge Luther supporter but I have study a bit of his life. I know that he believed that Our Lady was a perpetual virgin, and I also knew that he grew further away from some of his Latin Catholic beliefs with time. I am not familiar with his views on intercesion.

But a statement was thrown out there that, " Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end."

To make such a statement requires proof. I have researched these allegations in the past and I have never found such proof. I challenge anyone to find such proof.

But I was also told that Luther died calling out to the Blessed Mother for mercy. I think this would still be a great thread to start to see if someone does indeed have the proof. I do think it is out there. This is such a Holy Week comming up next week, and I am sure all will be busy. Hopefully after Easter I will open up this and see what we come up with. I also have a few other thing’s I would like to get into, but its too busy now. And I am trying to spend more time in prayer. Especially next week with Holy Week and all.

On the lighter side, Mickey I see you live in Pa too. Does your church do that trip to the different Church’s on Holy Thursday. Ours is taking a bus trip, its a night I thing. I want to go but don’t know if I can. I have never done it before.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Off the top of my head:

Martin Luther started out as an Augustian Monk. He was ordained into the priesthood and became a college professor. It was during his time as professor of Bible, he was sent to Rome on business for his order. Luther was disturbed by what he saw in Rome.

He started to study New Testament book of Romans because he was going to teach it to his students. At about this time, Rome started selling indulgences in Germany to finance St. Peters in Rome. Luther searched the Bible high and low but could not find any justification for the sale of indulgences. In 1517, he posted on the castle door in Latin, 95 questions for theological discussion on indulgences. At that point he was Catholic but the 95 questions were translated into German by some unknown person, printed and distributed to the people. The rest is, as they say, history.

As he was called to account for his 95 questions, his study into the Bible let him to question many dogmas of the church, Mary worship and so forth one of them. By 1523 Luther had rejected practically everything the Catholic church teaches that is not found in the Bible. This would include Rosary, perpetual virginity, the mass, tradition equal with the Bible, on and on.

I have read much about Luther and have never seen anything to indicate that he died anything other than Lutheran. I’m not Lutheran but it is impossible to understand modern western history and the modern church without an understanding of Luther. The total lack of truth about Luther by folks that claim to be Christians in this thread is amazing.

 

[Mickey]

But I was also told that Luther died calling out to the Blessed Mother for mercy.

And I heard that is an urban legend. Where is your proof?

Does your church do that trip to the different Church’s on Holy Thursday. Ours is taking a bus trip, its a night I thing. I want to go but don’t know if I can. I have never done it before.

Orthodox Pascha is not until April 19–we are on the Julian calendar. I do not know about Church trips?

 

[Mickey]

As he was called to account for his 95 questions, his study into the Bible let him to question many dogmas of the church, Mary worship and so forth one of them. By 1523 Luther had rejected practically everything the Catholic church teaches that is not found in the Bible. This would include Rosary, perpetual virginity, the mass, tradition equal with the Bible, on and on.

Are you sure that he changed his mind on the Virgin Mary’s perpetual virginity?

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
(Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320)

 

[Jon_Hus]

Are you sure that he changed his mind on the Virgin Mary’s perpetual virginity?

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
(Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320)

Luther may have had a personal belief that May did not have any other children in her lifetime. This is an area of debate. However, Luther did not believe in all of the other Mary related dogmas of the Roman Church regarding special powers granted Mary and the usefulness of canned prayers to her and or ritualistic prayers or acts of piety in general. Luther believed that the Bible teaches that sinful man can approach the throne of grace directly through prayer based on the shed blood of Christ, no need for intersession from Mary or any other Saint.