The Protestant Meltdown

[Mickey]

Luther may have had a personal belief that Mary did not have any other children in her lifetime. This is an area of debate. However, Luther did not believe in all of the other Mary related dogmas of the Roman Church…

I only asked about perpetual virginity. And I’m fairly certain that he held to that.

I think I also remember that he adhered to her Immaculate conception.

However, Luther did not believe in all of the other Mary related dogmas of the Roman Church regarding special powers granted Mary

Special powers!?!

and the usefulness of canned prayers to her

Canned prayers?!?

I think your tone has become uncharitable.

 

[Jon_Hus]

I only asked about perpetual virginity. And I’m fairly certain that he held to that.

I think I also remember that he adhered to her Immaculate conception.
Special powers!?!
Canned prayers?!?

I think your tone has become uncharitable.

Mickey, I have read much about Luther. Before he posted his 95 questions, he was basically a Roman Catholic. In fact he was a monk and priest. He was, as it has been said, a monk among monks. He took his monking seriously to the point that his superiors told him to relax, take a chill pill so to speak. So what ever the Roman Church considered articles of the faith, he went along with.

Once it became clear that he was going to have to defend his belief that indulgences and the sale of same were not in the Bible or be burned at the stake, he began to look into other teachings of the church. He didn’t overnight renounce everything, but the more he read and compared, the bigger the split became.

Luther had a very through understanding of the nature and attributes of God and man as laid out in the Bible. Therefore it is extreamly unlikely that Luther held to the Immaculate conception once he made the split with Rome. I have never heard it even suggested.

Now, Micky, I’m typing this in my most loving, kindest and softest keyboard voice. I’m sad to hear that you think I’m uncharitable. I’m in real life a very nice person. If you don’t understand some of what I write and you think I’m unkind, then why is it (and don’t be offended) why is it that you are not outraged by the hissing and spitting against protestants by Catholics right here in this thread?

 

[Mickey]

Before he posted his 95 questions, he was basically a Roman Catholic. In fact he was a monk and priest. He was, as it has been said, a monk among monks.

I know.

So what ever the Roman Church considered articles of the faith, he went along with.

I know.

Once it became clear that he was going to have to defend his belief that indulgences and the sale of same were not in the Bible or be burned at the stake, he began to look into other teachings of the church. He didn’t overnight renounce everything, but the more he read and compared, the bigger the split became.

Yes. I know. And I commented on his belief in Our Lady’s perpetual virginity which I do not think he renounced. But you expanded and attacked.

Luther had a very through understanding of the nature and attributes of God and man as laid out in the Bible. Therefore it is extreamly unlikely that Luther held to the Immaculate conception once he made the split with Rome. I have never heard it even suggested.

Well, the IC had not yet been defined in the Latin Catholic Church. But I have seen this quote attributed to Martin Luther:

“But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…”
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther’s Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.

Now, Micky, I’m typing this in my most loving, kindest and softest keyboard voice. I’m sad to hear that you think I’m uncharitable.

When I see phrases such as “special powers” and “canned prayers”—I do not know what else to think.

I’m in real life a very nice person.

That is good to know. I pray that my initial internet perception of you is mistaken.

If you don’t understand some of what I write and you think I’m unkind, then why is it (and don’t be offended) why is it that you are not outraged by the hissing and spitting against protestants by Catholics right here in this thread?

Are you kidding me? I am the one who is challenging the Catholics here because they are saying that Luther died before he could recant—saying the rosary. Are we reading the same thread?

 

[Jon_Hus]

“But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…”
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther’s Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.

My dear sweet Mickey,

I just explained in painful detail that Luther was a monk and Catholic priest. As a monk and catholic priest he told people and in his writings wrote catholic doctrine as it was practiced. Once Luther split with the Roman Church, that was the end of it. He did not, and I say this with the upmost respect and sensitivity to your your desire to be correct, Luther did not say any Rosary or prayers to Mary or believe Immaculate conception on his death bed. Luther was trusting in Jesus, not Mary, not the Saints, not the church of Rome. So stop digging up quotes from Luther in an attempt to back up the absurd claim that Luther believed in Immaculate conception after his break with Rome.

Sorry if that upsets you but that is the truth about Luther. BTW, I’m not a Lutheran.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It is bad apologetics - and just plain dishonest - to stretch truths and give credence to urban legends to “win” one over to one’s faith.

I am not a Dave Armstrong fan (he doesn’t debate in public) but he’s never been dishonest with his research or apologetics regarding Catholicism - he loves the Catholic Church and devotes a significant amount of his life to Catholic Apologetics. His book Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise is a good one.

If Luther had died saying the rosary, and it could be factually accounted for, Armstrong would not have been able to resist putting that in his book. Armstrong says this about Luther which makes me believe that the legend about Luther dying while saying the Rosary is just that - a legend (the whole post can be read here, emphasis mine):

Later references to the Immaculate Conception appear in [Luther’s] House sermon for Christmas (1533) and Against the Papacy of Rome (1545). In later life (he died in 1546), Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn’t explicitly and formally teach it. Such a view is consistent with his notion of sola Scriptura and is similar to his opinion on the bodily Assumption of the Virgin, which he never denied - although he was highly critical of what he felt were excesses in the celebration of this Feast. In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

Armstrong is quick to point out that Luther’s mariology was not that far removed from Catholicism - a point that both Catholics and non-Catholics often overlook or conveniently forget. But there is no factual evidence that Luther said the rosary on his death bed, or even was buried with one. For one, according to German biographer and church historian Martin Brecht (whose 3-volume biography on Luther is the most extensive ever written), Luther prayed the 31st Psalm the evening before he died. And more to the point, soon after that, he had a stroke which rendered him without speech.

It’s pretty hard to say the rosary when you can’t talk.

My whole point in all of this is that it is dishonest apologetics to say something is factual when there are no facts to support such a statement. And in our quest to convert people to the faith, we have to be honest.

O+

 

[Bill_Pick]

That last line was a diabolical lie in the sixteenth century and is no better today.

Edwin

Why is this a lie"Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you." it was good for Me

 

[O.S.Luke]

Why is this a lie"Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you." it was good for Me

'Fessing up is hard to do. But 'fessing up is good for you too, Bill.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

'Fessing up is hard to do. But 'fessing up is good for you too, Bill.

**O.S. Luke, Luther was a man buried AT HIS REQUEST WITH A ROSARY CLUTCHED IN HIS HANDS.
Furthermore, Luther did not openly condone the worship of Mary. He continued to refer to her as the " Mother of God" and did not condone the Catholic practice of saying the Hail Mary prayer using the rosary.
Also, Luther did not object to the focus on Mary in worship:
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed on the very depths of the human heart”. **He said in a sermon in 1522 and in a sermon on Christmas day in 1531, he said “We can never honor her enough”.

BTW, it is preposterous that a single monk should be right in his opinion about the Catholic church and that the whole of Christianity should be in error a thousand years or more.

 

[sambos671]

I guess I’m not getting your meaning? Your response doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what I said. Enlighten me! LOL

I was teasing here

you said:

truly don’t understand this constant necessity at one-up-manship

So I said I win
and then strangely enough I had a thought about what you said.

 

[Mickey]

My dear sweet Mickey

I have never been called sweet before now!

I just explained in painful detail that Luther was a monk and Catholic priest.

Everyone knows that. Why do you feel you must continue to repeat it?

Once Luther split with the Roman Church, that was the end of it. He did not, and I say this with the upmost respect and sensitivity to your your desire to be correct, Luther did not say any Rosary or prayers to Mary

And I say this with the utmost respect: Do you not read the posts of the threads you are posting to? I have stated many times that I do not believe Luther said the Rosary at the end of his life. What’s up with you? Regarding the Immaculate conception: I offered a quote from Luther, you can interpret it yourself.

So stop digging up quotes from Luther in an attempt to back up the absurd claim that Luther believed in Immaculate conception after his break with Rome.

A quotes from the actual person is an excellent way to get a glimpse of what was inside the person’s head. Here is another one:

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
[Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther’s Works
(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.

Sorry if that upsets you but that is the truth about Luther.

That does not upset me—because you have not said anything I do not already know. There are volumes of info about Luther. You are not an expert on him. Sorry if that upsets you.

BTW, I’m not a Lutheran.

I know. You told us already.

 

[Mickey]

O.S. Luke, Luther was a man buried AT HIS REQUEST WITH A ROSARY CLUTCHED IN HIS HANDS.

Everyone is still waitng for your proof and/or documentation.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Furthermore, Luther did not openly condone the worship of Mary. He continued to refer to her as the " Mother of God" and did not condone the Catholic practice of saying the Hail Mary prayer using the rosary.

You are correct - to a point. I already gave you a quote from Dave Armstrong, a CATHOLIC apologist. For the most part, I have no argument with what you say here.

Also, Luther did not object to the focus on Mary in worship

That would be debatable. As Armstrong pointed out, Luther didn’t EXCEED Catholic beliefs on Mary - but focusing on Mary IN WORSHIP might even be debatable among Catholics. If I’m not mistaken, we ask Mary to pray and intercede for US, not worship her or pray to her.

BTW, it is preposterous that a single monk should be right in his opinion about the Catholic church and that the whole of Christianity should be in error a thousand years or more.

You might be right.

NOW. To the point of my post… which you have YET to answer.

O.S. Luke, Luther was a man buried AT HIS REQUEST WITH A ROSARY CLUTCHED IN HIS HANDS.

Where is your proof of this? Find me ONE credible source or Catholic apologist that has said this, and I will apologize publicly to everyone here and repent for putting you through this.

This is what I am asking. I think sometimes in your fervor to defend Catholicism, which I know you love, you sometimes give in to hyperbole or urban legends which SOUND like great stories, but have no factual basis.

Again, if there is a factual and credible source that said Luther said the rosary and wanted to be buried with it, I will recant. But if such a fact were documentable, I suspect Catholic apologists everywhere would LOVE to know that!

What say you, OTCA?

O+

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You are correct - to a point. I already gave you a quote from Dave Armstrong, a CATHOLIC apologist. For the most part, I have no argument with what you say here.

That would be debatable. As Armstrong pointed out, Luther didn’t EXCEED Catholic beliefs on Mary - but focusing on Mary IN WORSHIP might even be debatable among Catholics. If I’m not mistaken, we ask Mary to pray and intercede for US, not worship her or pray to her.

You might be right.

NOW. To the point of my post… which you have YET to answer.

Where is your proof of this? Find me ONE credible source or Catholic apologist that has said this, and I will apologize publicly to everyone here and repent for putting you through this.

This is what I am asking. I think sometimes in your fervor to defend Catholicism, which I know you love, you sometimes give in to hyperbole or urban legends which SOUND like great stories, but have no factual basis.

Again, if there is a factual and credible source that said Luther said the rosary and wanted to be buried with it, I will recant. But if such a fact were documentable, I suspect Catholic apologists everywhere would LOVE to know that!

What say you, OTCA?

O+

Christian History Magazine,
Luther: Man Between God and The Devil 1992-by Helko A. Oberman, translated by Eileen Walliser Schwarzbarrrt. Apology accepted.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I was teasing here

you said:

So I said I win
and then strangely enough I had a thought about what you said.

Gotcha! One can get squirrelly here trying to decifer sometimes…lol…I missed the joke…and they are much needed here!

 

[O.S.Luke]

Christian History Magazine,
Luther: Man Between God and The Devil 1992-by Helko A. Oberman, translated by Eileen Walliser Schwarzbarrrt. Apology accepted.

If you consider Oberman to be a credible source (a Protestant, btw), then I will apologize. I am well acquainted with Herr Oberman’s work. I’d like a citation, because I can’t find the one you cited. And I have copies, btw.

You DO know who prints Christian History magazine, don’t you?

I am actually glad you brought up Herr Oberman… a man who wrote extensively about the Holocaust, which you in other posts said was blown out of proportion. So was Herr Oberman correct about the Holocaust? If he was, then YOU need to apologize for some thing you said about the Holocaust being blown out of proportion. I mean, you have quoted Oberman as being a factual guy.

So, OTCA… are you going to quote sources when it suits you, or bother to check them out before you quote them?

It would be much more accurate to say that “a few” sources have said that Luther was buried with a rosary. None of them have ever said that Luther died SAYING the rosary (I believe you said that here):

l
Actually, Luther knew of his mistakes but it was too late to recant. He died saying the Rosary at the end.

And I might add that there is not ONE Catholic apologist who have ever said that Luther was buried with a rosary. I wonder why that is…

Be careful who you quote, OTCA, and how/when you quote them. But I will apologize - you did cite your source. Thank you.

O+

 

[GKC]

If you consider Oberman to be a credible source (a Protestant, btw), then I will apologize. I am well acquainted with Herr Oberman’s work.

You DO know who prints Christian History magazine, don’t you?

I am actually glad you brought up Herr Oberman… a man who wrote extensively about the Holocaust, which you in other posts said was blown out of proportion. So was Herr Oberman correct about the Holocaust? If he was, then YOU need to apologize for some thing you said about the Holocaust being blown out of proportion. I mean, you have quoted Oberman as being a factual guy.

So, OTCA… are you going to quote sources when it suits you, or bother to check them out before you quote them?

It would be much more accurate to say that “a few” sources have said that Luther was buried with a rosary. None of them have ever said that Luther died SAYING the rosary (I believe you said that). And I might add that there is not ONE Catholic apologist who have ever said that Luther was buried with a rosary. I wonder why that is…

Be careful who you quote, OTCA, and how/when you quote them. But I will apologize - you did cite your source. Thank you.

O+

I’d like a page cite. Some day, Oberman is going to show up in this local mess I’m in, and I’d like to read the citation.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

If you consider Oberman to be a credible source (a Protestant, btw), then I will apologize. I am well acquainted with Herr Oberman’s work. I’d like a citation, because I can’t find the one you cited. And I have copies, btw.

You DO know who prints Christian History magazine, don’t you?

I am actually glad you brought up Herr Oberman… a man who wrote extensively about the Holocaust, which you in other posts said was blown out of proportion. So was Herr Oberman correct about the Holocaust? If he was, then YOU need to apologize for some thing you said about the Holocaust being blown out of proportion. I mean, you have quoted Oberman as being a factual guy.

So, OTCA… are you going to quote sources when it suits you, or bother to check them out before you quote them?

It would be much more accurate to say that “a few” sources have said that Luther was buried with a rosary. None of them have ever said that Luther died SAYING the rosary (I believe you said that here):

And I might add that there is not ONE Catholic apologist who have ever said that Luther was buried with a rosary. I wonder why that is…

Be careful who you quote, OTCA, and how/when you quote them. But I will apologize - you did cite your source. Thank you.

O+

Apology accepted. I don’t want to sway to the left O.S. Luke about the Holocaust when this thread would derail with it. I do not know why any apologist wouldn’t know this, but Rinnie knew it. I do not claim to know everything, but what I do know with the gift of some wisdom, is that I do not lie. I need not “be careful” whom I quote Luke when I know the truth. There were many things Luther did that remained Catholic within him, but most Protestants don’t realize this. God Bless.

 

[GKC]

So, can you give me the page where the reference is found? I don’t want to waste too much time, when the book turns up.

GKC

 

[O.S.Luke]

OTCA, just for information, this is what Catholic Encyclopedia records as Luther’s last act. No mention of the rosary:

His last act was, as he predicted and prayed for, an attack on the papacy. Summoned to Eisleben, his native place, a short time after, to act as an arbiter in a contention between the brothers Albrecht and Gebhard von Mansfeld, death came with unexpected speed but not suddenly, and he departed this life about three o’clock in the morning, 18 February, 1546, in the presence of a number of friends. The body was taken to Wittenberg for interment, and was buried on the 22 Feb., in the castle church, where it now lies with that of Melancthon. - from New Advent, “Martin Luther”

O+

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OTCA, just for information, this is what Catholic Encyclopedia records as Luther’s last act. No mention of the rosary:

O+

Well, I don’t know what to tell you. It is what it is. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?