The Protestant Meltdown

[O.S.Luke]

Well, I don’t know what to tell you. It is what it is. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

I think you’re missing the point. It is evidently difficult for official Catholic sources to accept, because official Catholic sources don’t mention it! The source you quoted was from an Evangelical magazine (Christian History is published by Christianity Today), although I have looked in that edition and not found the quote you are offering (but not doubting your word).

That was my point - no Catholic apologist or source cites what you are positing - and I thought that would matter to you. I’m not calling you a liar. I just think all of us should research more carefully before saying something is true when it’s not universally accepted by either academia or official church sources (in your case, Catholic sources).

O+

 

[madabkr4tx]

An ARIS Survey recently unearthed a very worrisome trend for some Protestant denominations. Of the drop in the percentage of Christians since 1990, “Ninety percent of the decline comes from non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, and the United Church of Christ.” These all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now just constitutes at just 12.9%.
The Catholic share of the population actually edged up from 2001 to 2008.
Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you.

Quality, over quantity.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I think you’re missing the point. It is evidently difficult for official Catholic sources to accept, because official Catholic sources don’t mention it! The source you quoted was from an Evangelical magazine (Christian History is published by Christianity Today), although I have looked in that edition and not found the quote you are offering (but not doubting your word).

That was my point - no Catholic apologist or source cites what you are positing - and I thought that would matter to you. I’m not calling you a liar. I just think all of us should research more carefully before saying something is true when it’s not universally accepted by either academia or official church sources (in your case, Catholic sources).

O+

Doesn’t matter what Catholic source mentions it or not. It happened, get over it and move on…Other Catholic sources do mention Luther’s devotion to Mary, while others don’t.

 

[Benadam]

As the Protestants abandoned their traditions over the century culminating in the past decade of their acceptance of radical feminism and homosexuality, their voice as the primary guide of american culture grew faint, untill today is it a whisper among the shouts produced by the likes of environmentalism. They abandoned the wisdom of their fathers. They thought they could see far because they were tall not realizing they could see far because they were on their forefather’s shoulders. They are just beginning to realize they aren’t very tall after all, just waiting to see if they recognize how high the shoulders were they got off of.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

As the Protestants abandoned their traditions over the century culminating in the past decade of their acceptance of radical feminism and homosexuality, their voice as the primary guide of american culture grew faint, untill today is it a whisper among the shouts produced by the likes of environmentalism. They abandoned the wisdom of their fathers. They thought they could see far because they were tall not realizing they could see far because they were on their forefather’s shoulders. They are just beginning to realize they aren’t very tall after all, just waiting to see if they recognize how high the shoulders were they got off of.

Interesting way of putting it and oh so true.

 

[GKC]

I take it no one can supply a page citation for Oberman’s book, where the Rosary story is found.

I will let you know, when I find it.

GKC

 

[Middleman]

An ARIS Survey recently unearthed a very worrisome trend for some Protestant denominations. Of the drop in the percentage of Christians since 1990, “Ninety percent of the decline comes from non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, and the United Church of Christ.” These all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now just constitutes at just 12.9%.
The Catholic share of the population actually edged up from 2001 to 2008.
Breaking up is hard to do but breaking up is good for you.

The Catholic share of the population is directly affected by Hispanic immigration. That would be your reason for that particular statistic.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Doesn’t matter what Catholic source mentions it or not. It happened, get over it and move on…Other Catholic sources do mention Luther’s devotion to Mary, while others don’t.

I think you’re being a little dishonest in your apologetics now. For that I’m sorry. I never argued about Luther’s devotion to Mary, not once; indeed, I quoted sources (Armstrong) that made that clear about Luther and agreed with you.

But that wasn’t what we were talking about - we were talking about your claim that Luther died saying the rosary and was buried with one. I really wouldn’t have any trouble with that if it were the truth, OTCA - I say the rosary myself. It’s just that no Catholic sources have ever said that.

There is not one official Catholic source that I have been able to find, nor that you have been willing to post, that says Luther died saying the rosary or was buried with one. You did find a Protestant, evangelical source that supported this claim (although I have looked and can’t find it); however, I think you would be hesitant to listen to an evangelical Protestant source that criticized Catholicism, much less call it authoritative. That’s why I am saying you are being a little dishonest in your apologetics; you can’t pick and choose sources to suit your beliefs and call it apologetics.

Most church historians - Protestant and Catholic alike - that I have heard lecture or read their writings regarding Luther, say that his being buried with a rosary is at best an unsubstantiated claim, and at worst an urban legend that sounds good in a homily or sermon but lacks substantiation.

Oh well. I’ve derailed this enough.

 

[O.S.Luke]

As the Protestants abandoned their traditions over the century culminating in the past decade of their acceptance of radical feminism and homosexuality, their voice as the primary guide of american culture grew faint, untill today is it a whisper among the shouts produced by the likes of environmentalism. They abandoned the wisdom of their fathers. They thought they could see far because they were tall not realizing they could see far because they were on their forefather’s shoulders. They are just beginning to realize they aren’t very tall after all, just waiting to see if they recognize how high the shoulders were they got off of.

Oh, what a great, wide, sweeping brush we use when we paint our “separated Brethern.”

I’m glad you don’t speak for all Catholics. Thank God for a Magisterium. You desperately need it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I think you’re being a little dishonest in your apologetics now. For that I’m sorry. I never argued about Luther’s devotion to Mary, not once; indeed, I quoted sources (Armstrong) that made that clear about Luther and agreed with you.

But that wasn’t what we were talking about - we were talking about your claim that Luther died saying the rosary and was buried with one. I really wouldn’t have any trouble with that if it were the truth, OTCA - I say the rosary myself. It’s just that no Catholic sources have ever said that.

There is not one official Catholic source that I have been able to find, nor that you have been willing to post, that says Luther died saying the rosary or was buried with one. You did find a Protestant, evangelical source that supported this claim (although I have looked and can’t find it); however, I think you would be hesitant to listen to an evangelical Protestant source that criticized Catholicism, much less call it authoritative. That’s why I am saying you are being a little dishonest in your apologetics; you can’t pick and choose sources to suit your beliefs and call it apologetics.

Most church historians - Protestant and Catholic alike - that I have heard lecture or read their writings regarding Luther, say that his being buried with a rosary is at best an unsubstantiated claim, and at worst an urban legend that sounds good in a homily or sermon but lacks substantiation.

Oh well. I’ve derailed this enough.

Just wanted to thank you for your posts. You represent your faith tradition well, with the dignity and calm charity I would expect. You are an example to me, and others. It’s terribly sad that some others represent their faith traditions so very uncharitibly. I can but wonder what the heirarchy would think to see how some reflect upon their church. A good rule of thumb might be to remember that Jesus is standing next to you, before you open your mouth to speak. I should think a few here would be ashamed, but somehow I doubt they will recognize themselves.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Just wanted to thank you for your posts. You represent your faith tradition well, with the dignity and calm charity I would expect. You are an example to me, and others. It’s terribly sad that some others represent their faith traditions so very uncharitibly. I can but wonder what the heirarchy would think to see how some reflect upon their church. A good rule of thumb might be to remember that Jesus is standing next to you, before you open your mouth to speak. I should think a few here would be ashamed, but somehow I doubt they will recognize themselves.

Of course you would both agree, you are both Protestant. A good rule of thumb would be to know that Jesus Christ established the Catholic church. One sheep, one fold.

 

[Benadam]

Oh, what a great, wide, sweeping brush we use when we paint our “separated Brethern.”

sorry bro, If I did speak for all Catholics you couldn’t tell. And what did I write that could even remotely be taken as a subject of Magisterial teaching?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Of course you would both agree, you are both Protestant. A good rule of thumb would be to know that Jesus Christ established the Catholic church. One sheep, one fold.

you are one of the strangest people I’ve met. If you keep saying that last line a few more hundred times, you just might grow to believe it yourself. This is HOLY WEEK. You might tone down the antagonism just a tad?

You are angry because I compliment someone on their tone? I never spoke to any agreement with his arguments. You must know your statement is absurd on its face and is just that sort of super inclusiveness used in racial, ethnic, attack? You are just so ready to attack. It’s just sad. I will pray for you, since I can see you are deeply wounded.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

sorry bro, If I did speak for all Catholics you couldn’t tell. And what did I write that could even remotely be taken as a subject of Magisterial teaching?

You can’t find anything offensive in what you said? Protestants have abandoned …radical feminism, homosexuality…abandoned the wisdom of their fathers…

You don’t delienate “some” Protestants. …this is just stereotyping of the worst kind. And your opinion to boot.

Holy Week is upon it, and I guess we all can use some deep prayer about humility, arrogance, pride, and civility. …

 

[Benadam]

You can’t find anything offensive in what you said? Protestants have abandoned …radical feminism, homosexuality…abandoned the wisdom of their fathers…

You don’t delienate “some” Protestants. …this is just stereotyping of the worst kind. And your opinion to boot.

Holy Week is upon it, and I guess we all can use some deep prayer about humility, arrogance, pride, and civility. …

First let me say that I liked this nation alot better when it was guided by the wisdom of the Protestant mainstream traditions. I wish it still were but it can’t because the foundations of the traditions have eroded.
Having said that;
explain to me how it is untrue. If it’s a false view you can correct me with a reason to believe it is false. If I refuse sound reasons Then I might be offensive

. If it’s true you should be thanking me for wanting the Protestant voice to lead this culture again. I’ve been in discussions with Protestant friends who are not offended. They know it’s true. They are taking that message to heart and letting it guide them into action.

About what you said about arrogance and pride etc, those are the things that cause offense without, when something trully is offfensive, and within when it is not.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

you are one of the strangest people I’ve met. If you keep saying that last line a few more hundred times, you just might grow to believe it yourself. This is HOLY WEEK. You might tone down the antagonism just a tad?

You are angry because I compliment someone on their tone? I never spoke to any agreement with his arguments. You must know your statement is absurd on its face and is just that sort of super inclusiveness used in racial, ethnic, attack? You are just so ready to attack. It’s just sad. I will pray for you, since I can see you are deeply wounded.

My friend, there you go again with your name calling, and you say we Catholics should be charitable? Why, Protestants shouldn’t be? Because you are not. I am far from angry my friend, I go to Mass every day during Lent and I am filled with a joy God has given me that I can’t describe. This is Holy Week and I will be at church all day all week, and I will be doing other things that Jesus wouldn’t want me to boast about.

 

[BrianH]

My friend, there you go again with your name calling, and you say we Catholics should be charitable? Why, Protestants shouldn’t be? Because you are not. I am far from angry my friend, I go to Mass every day during Lent and I am filled with a joy God has given me that I can’t describe. This is Holy Week and I will be at church all day all week, and I will be doing other things that Jesus wouldn’t want me to boast about.

Boasting about not boasting…IS boasting

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Boasting about not boasting…IS boasting

NOT…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

you are one of the strangest people I’ve met. If you keep saying that last line a few more hundred times, you just might grow to believe it yourself. This is HOLY WEEK. You might tone down the antagonism just a tad?

You are angry because I compliment someone on their tone? I never spoke to any agreement with his arguments. You must know your statement is absurd on its face and is just that sort of super inclusiveness used in racial, ethnic, attack? You are just so ready to attack. It’s just sad. I will pray for you, since I can see you are deeply wounded.

Oh and by the way, did I mention that Jesus Christ did in fact establish the Catholic church?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

First let me say that I liked this nation alot better when it was guided by the wisdom of the Protestant mainstream traditions. I wish it still were but it can’t because the foundations of the traditions have eroded.
Having said that;
explain to me how it is untrue. If it’s a false view you can correct me with a reason to believe it is false. If I refuse sound reasons Then I might be offensive

. If it’s true you should be thanking me for wanting the Protestant voice to lead this culture again. I’ve been in discussions with Protestant friends who are not offended. They know it’s true. They are taking that message to heart and letting it guide them into action.

About what you said about arrogance and pride etc, those are the things that cause offense without, when something trully is offfensive, and within when it is not.

What an outstanding post, Benadam. Don’t let Spirit Meadow and company use that “offensive, hurtful, hateful, spiteful” accusation. Whenever you differ with them and challenge the protestant fall from grace theologically, they go to pieces.

Protestants like George W. Bush who was staunchly against stem cell research and the homosexual agenda as well as pro-abstinence in sex eduation while not towing the line with passing out condoms in Africa shows that Protestants are indeed capable of having great wisdom that can often appear in line with Catholic teaching. But, sadly, most Protestants I know are perfectly fine with divorce, many condone homosexuality and believe it a biological imperative, so many are fine with cohabitation and “trial marriages,” as well as feminism and lady priestesses, men vs. women and other nonsense.

As a Catholic, I find many things about our Church that I think are lacking and need reform. When Protestants I know tell me they think Catholicism lacks the fellowship opportunities that their churches have, I don’t get offended. I agree. When non-Catholics tell me that our Church has had a terrible sex abuse scandal that was poorly dealt-with and covered up in a sickening way, I agree. Many people criticize the RCC for a weakened pastoral presence and I tend to agree there also. Catholicism has many areas of needed reform—particularly our English Mass and some of the lousy music choices and free-flowing Baptisty music we have. Why is it that we can take criticism about Catholicism but to criticize and Episcopalian or Methodist, etc. brings the fires of Hades down?

Great post.