The Protestant Perspective.

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The protestant perspective:

Infallible truth is found in the infallible bible, so I am told by my protestant friends. Cool! Non-Catholics either start churches and teach, basing their teachings on their fallible interpretation of the bible, or, non-Catholics defer to the fallible teachings of the leaders of each and every non-Catholic church, depending on the church, or, non-Catholics admit that no one church and no one individual can teach infallibly regarding the infallible bible, and therefore, infallible truth, regarding the infallible bible, cannot, with certainty, be known!!! I ask with all humility, how can I know what is infallible truth and what is not infallible truth…regarding the teachings of Jesus? This is my last attempt to try and understand the protestant perspective. A little help my protestant friends…🙂
 
The protestant perspective:

Infallible truth is found in the infallible bible, so I am told by my protestant friends. Cool! Non-Catholics either start churches and teach, basing their teachings on their fallible interpretation of the bible, or, non-Catholics defer to the fallible teachings of the leaders of each and every non-Catholic church, depending on the church, or, non-Catholics admit that no one church and no one individual can teach infallibly regarding the infallible bible, and therefore, infallible truth, regarding the infallible bible, cannot, with certainty, be known!!! I ask with all humility, how can I know what is infallible truth and what is not infallible truth…regarding the teachings of Jesus? This is my last attempt to try and understand the protestant perspective. A little help my protestant friends…🙂
Catholic convert dittos, my friend. i think you hit the nail on the head 👍 Peace 🙂
 
Just a thought - do you infallibly know the Catholic Church is what it says it is?

If not, then you still don’t know anything infallibly.

Maybe you are barking up the wrong tree here.
 
I have been seeking an answer to the Protestant response of what you said as well. Silence seems to fill the room when a Protestant poses the infallibility question right back to the Catholic.

So…the Protestant may not know whether he/she can trust his interpretation infallibly, but how does one infallibly trust that the Church and its infallible teachings?..
 
I have been seeking an answer to the Protestant response of what you said as well. Silence seems to fill the room when a Protestant poses the infallibility question right back to the Catholic.

So…the Protestant may not know whether he/she can trust his interpretation infallibly, but how does one infallibly trust that the Church and its infallible teachings?..
The best answer here seems to be the statement given by Cardinal Newman when he said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

It is that “history” that led me Home to the Catholic Church.

The Bible itself does not support the ideas of “Sola Scriptura”, “individual interpretation”, “invisible church” etc.
The clearest and simplest reading of the Bible shows a visible and authoritative Church.

So, while one can certainly say - “Well that’s your interpretation” - which may well be true, it is based on much more than the fact that someone, somewhere along the line decided that “The Church” was wrong (not spirit guided) and split from her…

Peace
James
 
But of course you have no way of infallibly discerning that is true, do you? That is a judgement on your part. You could be wrong about the Catholic Church. It could be that Christ does not, and has never intended the Church on Earth to make infallible claims. It could be that Christianity is simply untrue. It could be that the Orthodox are correct and the Catholic Church is in the same situation as other Protestants.

The thing is, if one wants to understand Protestantism, this is the wrong question to ask. Protestants don’t think they come to infallible knowledge on every little thing. They do not think that the Church Militant has that capacity - that it is only fulfilled as the Church Triumphant.
 
If Jesus didn’t have the power to make sure his original church survives and doesn’t stray away from his teachings then I’m done. Then the holy spirit doesn’t exist and what I think I feel is just a feeling. there’s no way I’m going to waste my time trying to follow some random Protestant church and leave everything up to chance: I’m not going to follow a church that was founded by people who claimed the original church fell into “apostasy”, nor would I join one with practicing homosexual clergy. Only one that FULLY conforms to everything in the bible. If god is real and founded a “church”, it’s going to be obvious.
 
The best answer here seems to be the statement given by Cardinal Newman when he said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

It is that “history” that led me Home to the Catholic Church.
While your reading of church history brought you to Catholicism, your reading of church history is not infallible. That is why the infallibility argument, no matter how you approach it, is nothing more than red herring. While one’s view of church history could be inerrant - that is, correct - it is not infallible. The level of certainty, therefore, is no more than that possessed by any other Christian.
 
Joe370;
Eventfully there comes a point where we are each responsible for deciding what is true.
And maybe we will get it wrong. Just because fallible humans do not understand the Truth does not make the Truth untrue.
There are some main and plain things in Scripture and there are some difficult things also , but I have faith that one day ”I will know as I am known.”

Until that time, : I (and Protestants) go to Scripture to test the truth of beliefs.

We STUDY , compare scripture with scripture , we use 2000 years of chuch history, reason and experience, and yet as it says in Romans 14 , we may not all agree.

we work on the the assumption that true teaching will never contradict scripture.

This means that it is Scripture that determines if a church is true
It is the meaning Scripture that will determine the teachings of a church.

I Tester, “Test all things and hold fast to that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and I examine the Scriptures every day to see what is true. (Acts 17)

I remember a quote that went something like this: “ if “so and so” knows everything about God, well no offence to “so and so”; but I would think a lot less of God.”

You can insert whoever or whatever you want for “so and so”

So Protestants go to the for inerrant scripture for truth : where do Catholics go? The Magisterium?

There are some main and plain teachings from The Magisterium and there are some difficult teachings also : How do you know you interpreted their teachings correctly?

From James Akins below:
*Catholics are not to privately interpret Scripture;
Catholics are not to privately interpret previous papal statements;
Catholics are not to privately interpret previous Magisterial statements;
*

The protestant perspective is we go to the inerrant Bible as the source of infallible truth and you ask how are we sure it is being interpreted correctly?
The Catholic perspective is

**You go to the infallible Church has the source of infallible truth ; so I ask how you sure you are interpreting their teachings correctly? **

** from James Akin**
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

*“Private Judgment?

What the radical traditionalists have forgotten is that** they are not the interpreters of previous papal statements; the Magisterium is, and their personal interpretations may not go against the authoritative teaching of the current Magisterium**.

The idea that they can by private conscience interpret centuries old papal decrees puts them in the same position as Protestants, interpreting centuries old biblical documents. The radical traditionalist simply has a larger “Bible,” but the principle is the same: private interpretation rules! This completely defeats the purpose of having a Magisterium, which is to provide a contemporary source that can identify, clarify, and explain previous authoritative statements, whether from the Bible, Apostolic Tradition, or itself

Much of the current flap over Feeneyism could be avoided if conservative Catholics would remind themselves of the fact that it is the Magisterium, not them and their private judgment, which is the interpreter of previous Magisterial statements,…”*​

So whether it is Creeds or Councils or Confessions
Or whether it is the first Pope or the current Pope or previous papal statements
Or a past Magisterium or the current Magisteruim,

If Catholics are “not the interpreters of previous papal statements; the Magisterium is
And* “it is the Magisterium, not [Catholics] and their private judgment, which is the interpreter of previous Magisterial statements*,…”

When to you really know??
At what point do you have to decide what it means?
 
While your reading of church history brought you to Catholicism, your reading of church history is not infallible. That is why the infallibility argument, no matter how you approach it, is nothing more than red herring. While one’s view of church history could be inerrant - that is, correct - it is not infallible. The level of certainty, therefore, is no more than that possessed by any other Christian.
Infallibility is an argument that really cannot be made by either side, because we are not physical witnesses to the whole of the story.
Some believe that the Bible istelf is largely or entirely fiction. So - one must begin from some “unprovable” point of “faith”.

However, if one believe in Christs and believes in the Words of the Holy Bible, then, in my view, deep historical research will ineviably lead one to the Catholic Church.

This is just my opinion of course…But I will still hold that, in answer to the OP’s question the best answer is Newman’s.

Peace
James
 
Just a thought - do you infallibly know the Catholic Church is what it says it is?

If not, then you still don’t know anything infallibly.

Maybe you are barking up the wrong tree here.
Dear Bluegoat,

Cordial greetings.

The Catholic does know for a certainty that the Church is infallible and that it was established by our Lord upon St. Peter.

The Catholic Church bases its authority on the remarkable words “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church…” (St. Matt. 16: 18). However, unlike Protestantism we do not simply make our appeal to the bible as if the mere citation of a text settles the matter conclusively without need for futher discussion. Rather, the line of argument which the Church adopts in validating her Divine origin and mission is as follows:

1/ The Church appeals, in the first instance, to the documents of the N.T., regarding them, not as as inspired books, but rather as genuine works of contemporary writers, in the same manner as she would appeal to Tacitus, Seneca, Josephus, or any other trustworthy historical authorities. In this way it is established, on the basis of purely historical evidence, that there was such a person as Jesus Christ; that He founded a Society, which received the names of Christian and the Catholic Church; that that Society has continued to exist down through the successive generations to the present time, and that the Catholic Church is that Society.

2/ Still regarding the N.T. writings only as regular historical records, the Church establishes the fact of the miracles of Christ and especially the miracle par exellence, His reported Resurrection. From thence the Church draws the inference that Christ must be God; either Christ was insane or was who He claimed to be, God. We can easily eliminate the possibility that He was mad, for no madman ever spoke the way that He did, neither did any sane man for that matter. In confirmation of His Divinity, and the truth of His mission, the Church appeals to the manner in which His prophecies concerning the Church and the Jewish nation have been fulfilled; to the global dissemination of the Gospel; to the constancy of the holy marytyrs; to the great change for the better that the proclamation of the Gospel has effected among mankind; and to the witness which the Church itself has borne, through so many generations, to the belief which has been held in the truth of His wondrous miracles.

3/ Having satisfactorily demonstrated that Christ is indeed God, His words must necessarily be Divine and thus infallibly true. However, it is on record that He uttered the words, “You are Peter…” (St. Matt. 16: 18); “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (St. John 20: 21); “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…and behold, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (St. Matt. 28: 19,20). Now these being God’s words, the Church, to which they have reference, is indeed a Divine institution, and has authority from God Himself.

4/ This Church, founded by God, with a mission from God to teach the nations of the world, and equipped with a Divine promise that God will be with it to the final consumation of all things, cannot possibly err in its teaching on faith and morals; for it is, by God’s own appointment, infallible.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
originally posted by Fantom Scholar
The level of certainty, therefore, is no more than that possessed by any other Christian.
Wrong. Christ Himself left The Holy Church to us so that’s more than enough to know that The Holy Church’s teachings are infallible. If not, then that would render Christ Himself a liar. :signofcross:
originall posted by tester
So Protestants go to the for inerrant scripture for truth
What all protestants do not seem to understand is that where the Bible exhorts to “read scripture”, it’s ALWAYS referring to the Old Testament. There was NO New Testament writings that we hold as sacred today during the time of the Apostles; NO written Bible and NO Canon. (The Holy Catholic Church says “you’re welcome!”)
So, by the sola scriptura belief, one could only go to Malachi and no further to determine anything for one’s self.

Cardinal Newman nailed it for all when he said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a protestant.”
 
This is my last attempt to try and understand the protestant perspective. A little help my protestant friends…🙂
Since the protestant perspective has been made fairly clear by now, what is it you hope to learn? There isn’t much more to be said. Is a better understanding really your objective here?
 
Joe, why can’t you learn from your own experience?

As a Catholic, didn’t you apply faith and put ‘your trust’ in the Catholic Church to provide infallible teaching from the bible? You honestly have no justification for this decision except for faith!

Why can’t Protestants apply this same level of faith to the book instead of to a man led organization?
The protestant perspective:

Infallible truth is found in the infallible bible, so I am told by my protestant friends. Cool! Non-Catholics either start churches and teach, basing their teachings on their fallible interpretation of the bible, or, non-Catholics defer to the fallible teachings of the leaders of each and every non-Catholic church, depending on the church, or, non-Catholics admit that no one church and no one individual can teach infallibly regarding the infallible bible, and therefore, infallible truth, regarding the infallible bible, cannot, with certainty, be known!!! I ask with all humility, how can I know what is infallible truth and what is not infallible truth… A little help my protestant friends…🙂
 
The best answer here seems to be the statement given by Cardinal Newman when he said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

It is that “history” that led me Home to the Catholic Church.
For me, to be “deep into history” caused me to reject the Catholic church…and all those bodies which claim “apostolic sucession”…I have found to be myth.

IF one only reads “church history” as provided by Catholics…you may have a point…but secular and histories which deal with “early Christianity” enhanced by more recent archeological finds…such as the Nag Hamaddi Library, Dead Sea Scrolls, Gospel of Judas to name a few has led me to come to the understanding that Christianity was not singular in it’s early stages…but the people called “Christians” in those first centuries were as diverse…if not more so than Christianity is today.

Of course…the books, lectures and classes I have attended by Bart Erhman, Joan O’Grady, Eliane Pagels, John Spong, John Domonic Crossan, Marcus Borg are not “faith affirming” toward the Orthodox/Catholic traditions.

I find these histories much more compelling than the 'pious histories" put forth by the CC/EO churches…there are several “ancient churches” that all claim to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH to the exclusion of the others in some cases…so to quote many of the posters here…“To have more than one is one too many”.
🙂
 
As a Catholic convert living in the South I find that the common answer to the infallibility question when posed to my Non-Catholic friends to be quite interesting. Im not sure if this is a new trend but when they are shown scripture verses that would cause one to question what they believe, the now common answer is not “it is what the bible says it is” but “it is what I feel the Holy Spirit tells me what the bible says.” So really its all personal experience with Jesus that trumps alot of thing. Im not saying it is everybody but alot of protestant churches in the south are taking this approach. There is a Major denomination campus ministry whose bible study i attend sometimes and when they do have discussions after reading scripture they ask “what do u think this passage is telling you?” So sometimes when we have these topics on infallibility and such these are things we as Catholics have to take into consideration
 
The protestant perspective:

Infallible truth is found in the infallible bible, so I am told by my protestant friends. Cool! Non-Catholics either start churches and teach, basing their teachings on their fallible interpretation of the bible, or, non-Catholics defer to the fallible teachings of the leaders of each and every non-Catholic church, depending on the church, or, non-Catholics admit that no one church and no one individual can teach infallibly regarding the infallible bible, and therefore, infallible truth, regarding the infallible bible, cannot, with certainty, be known!!! I ask with all humility, how can I know what is infallible truth and what is not infallible truth…regarding the teachings of Jesus? This is my last attempt to try and understand the protestant perspective. A little help my protestant friends…🙂
greetings. This is in response to your question, I hope it helps. “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instructing justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work” (The 2nd Epistle of St. Paul to Timothy 3:16,17).has to be revealed. But God revealed the mystery unto Paul. Paul said that we could read and have his understanding, the understanding of an apostle of God.Did Peter ever give Paul understanding? No, because they had the same God-given power to understand! If we can obtain the understanding of an apostle by reading the words of Paul, then we need no infallible interpreter!

We cannot understand what the Spirit said approximately 1900 years ago but we can understand what He says today through the inspired Pope. Do you believe the Spirit of God can speak in a more understandable way today than He did through the writers of the New Testament years ago? Can the perfect Spirit of God improve?

We agree that the apostles were infallible, don’t we? When they wrote they recorded the words of the Spirit which “searcheth… the deep things of God” (The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians 2:10). These words received the approval of God’s Spirit and His holy apostles. The question is: Why do we need an infallible interpreter, the Pope, the alleged successor of Peter, to interpret what Peter infallibly wrote for us? Surely, we can see that if we can understand what the present day Pope says, we can understand what Peter, allegedly the first Pope, said. If we can understand what Peter said, then we can understand the Bible. If we can understand the Bible, it really is a safe guide for mankind.
 
…Surely, we can see that if we can understand what the present day Pope says, we can understand what Peter, allegedly the first Pope,
See that is the issue:

Cathoilcs are NOT to be the interpreters of previous papal stements!!

from James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

“Private Judgment?

What the radical traditionalists have forgotten is that they are not the interpreters of previous papal statements; the Magisterium is, and their personal interpretations may not go against the authoritative teaching of the current Magisterium.

The idea that they can by private conscience interpret centuries old papal decrees puts them in the same position as Protestants, interpreting centuries old biblical documents. The radical traditionalist simply has a larger “Bible,” but the principle is the same: private interpretation rules! This completely defeats the purpose of having a Magisterium, which is to provide a contemporary source that can identify, clarify, and explain previous authoritative statements, whether from the Bible, Apostolic Tradition, or itself

Much of the current flap over Feeneyism could be avoided if conservative Catholics would remind themselves of the fact that it is the Magisterium, not them and their private judgment, which is the interpreter of previous Magisterial statements,…”

So whether it is Creeds or Councils or Confessions
Or whether it is the first Pope or the current Pope or previous papal statements
Or a past Magisterium or the current Magisteruim,

If Catholics are “not the interpreters of previous papal statements; the Magisterium is”
And “it is the Magisterium, not [Catholics] and their private judgment, which is the interpreter of previous Magisterial statements,…”

When do Catholics know the truth?
 
See that is the issue:

When do Catholics know the truth?
Aren’t you being a bit harsh? In truth isn’t this more about - When in doubt, the current magesterium always rules
This doesn’t preclude Private Judgement as one reads scripture and decrees, it just clarifies the pecking order on final interpretation
 
Infallibility is an argument that really cannot be made by either side, because we are not physical witnesses to the whole of the story.

Some believe that the Bible istelf is largely or entirely fiction. So - one must begin from some “unprovable” point of “faith”.

However, if one believe in Christs and believes in the Words of the Holy Bible, then, in my view, deep historical research will ineviably lead one to the Catholic Church.

This is just my opinion of course…But I will still hold that, in answer to the OP’s question the best answer is Newman’s.

Peace
James
Sure, JR. I wouldn’t argue with the conclusions that you have reached that a reading of history would make one Catholic (that would be a different thread!).

My only point, and largely in relation to statements made by the OP, is that a supposedly infallible church body does nothing to increase one’s personal certainty. Any way you cut it, you must still use your own fallible judgment to determine that Catholicism is correct, just like I must use my fallible judgment to discern that my confession of faith is correct. In this respect, there is no difference between Catholics and Protestants.
 
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