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mark_a
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These beliefs are “required” in that they cannot be denied or taught to be false. Your brief statement properly understood is true, but is otherwise misleading to non-Catholics about Catholic dogma.
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Dokimas
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Isn’t Mary the bride of the Holy Spirit? Seems some here spoke of Mary that way.
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BrianH
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Mary is not the bride of the Holy Spirit. She is the wife of Joseph. She is not married to two. This is getting odd
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Dokimas
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The June 1997 issue of New Covenant Magazine (A Roman Catholic publication) featured an article entitled “Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit: What God Has Joined Should Remain Joined in Our Hearts.” by Catholic priest and Promise Keeper Michael Scanlan.
Vatican City, Jun 1, 2009 / 06:02 pm (CNA).- Yesterday evening, **Pope Benedict XVI **addressed the faithful at the Vatican’s Grotto of Lourdes, urging them to “meditate upon the bond between the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.”
Crowds gathered at the Grotto following the conclusion of the traditional procession through the Vatican Gardens in observance of the end of the Month of May. In his address, the Pope spoke of the Virgin Mary as “the Bride of the Spirit” and explained how the Holy Spirit guided the most important moments of her life, including the Annunciation, Visitation, and Nativity. “Mary’s heart,” he said, “in perfect harmony with her divine Son, is a temple of the Spirit of truth, where each word and each event is treasured in faith, hope, and charity.”
catholicnewsagency.com/news/after_month_of_mary_pope_reflects_on_her_bond_with_the_holy_spirit/
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BrianH
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You can only have one spouse at a time. Mary was the spouse of Joseph. 
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Dokimas
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Kind of confusing to me too, being a non-catholic Christian.You can only have one spouse at a time. Mary was the spouse of Joseph.
So help me understand this better, Mark. Is the conscience of the believer bound to belief in these dogma? Or are you saying that if you don’t believe them ,you are simply required to remain silent? I’m not sure how if my statement is true, it is misleading, unless you are making a comment about the lack of understanding many nonCatholics have about this.
Thanks,
Jon
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adstrinity
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Mary & Joseph were husband & wife in name only, not in relations. They lived as brother and sister for numerous reasons.
The crowd did think He was the son of Joseph. What is curious, though, is that they never thought anybody else was the son of Joseph, or the son of Mary. They don’t refer to anybody else as the (or a) son of Joseph or the (or a) son of Mary.
It is not merely ~I~ who says Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit (and think of this perfect relationship She has with God: Daughter, Mother, & Spouse), but, it is the Catholic Church, including the Bible. The Bible states that Mary is the beloved of the HS. I am not saying something heterodox.
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BrianH
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Okay, so if she is Spouse of God and the Holy Spirit but not Jesus? I am trying to clarify how far this line of thinking goes.
The Bible does not say she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. You will not find a single verse to support that. She is the spouse of Joseph. You cannot have two spouses. What exact verse are you referring to?
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Spun
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Luther yes, Calvin maybe not…there’s a lot of debate about Calvin’s development on the matter.
Most thinking Protestants do accept the doctrine that Mary is the Mother of God, though most do not accept her perpetual virginity.
This is kind of a messy broadside, Bill.
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adstrinity
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Mary – Daughter of the Father
Mary – Mother of the Son
Mary – Spouse of the Holy Spirit
A good question, a legitimate question. Please read the Song of Songs. It has been interpreted as God speaking to Mary. Also, Luke 1:28 - 30. God loves Her so much that He chose HER, Her whom He created just for Him, and for no other, to overshadow and to parent Him. She could have said no, but, She loves God so much, She gave Herself fully to Him and accepted Him as wholy Hers. It is really beautiful.
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Soutane
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The further one gets from the Truth through division and denomination X 30,000+ the further that Truth becomes subverted and distorted and even inverted.The original Protestant "reformers’ would faint at some of the beliefs let alone Marian “theology” or historical veracity of modern day fundamentalists or evangelicals.They would not recognize modern day protestantism.
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Prodigal_Son1
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The first link is where you found this information and I was surprised to see that you visit an 'anti-Catholic website for your ‘apologetics’ and that you feel the need to link to such an ‘anti-Catholic’ website.
I can assure you ‘anti-Catholic’ websites have no desire for truth. They seek only that which can be twisted against the Catholic Church.
Who is the bride of Christ? Who is the wife of the Lamb?
Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Christ referred to Himself as the bridegroom. Do we see the ‘anti-Catholics’ denouncing Him or God’s word for this language?
The Holy Father speaks metaphorically, without fear of those ‘anti-Catholics’ who twist truth to fit their agenda. Mary was representative of the Church, now run off and tell all the anti-Catholics you saw a Catholic compare Mary to Jesus’ wife.
Mary was clearly married to Joseph in the scriptures and we’re not making it any other way. The ignorance of ‘anti-Catholics’ does that for us.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Martin Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
John Calvin on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
Huldreich Zwingli
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}
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adstrinity
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Holy Mary: The Chaste Spouse of the Holy Spirit. catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3013
Our Lady is so intimately linked to the Holy Spirit—the Third Person of the Most Blessed Trinity—through her profound love and obedience that we can attest without a trace of exaggeration that she is the Spouse of the Paraclete.
Surrendering with alacrity to the abundant and alluring grace of the Holy Spirit, Mary has pledged herself to Him in the spirit of fidelity, thereby becoming His Chaste Spouse. She has rejected everything that is contrary to the Holy Spirit. She has only one Eternal Spouse: the Beloved Counselor.
And this spousal relationship between the Holy Spirit and Holy Mary is so firm and abiding that it is irrevocable; it cannot be broken or even lessened. The sincere consent given by both parties may not be retracted, so forceful, informed and conscious it was.
Mary is united to the Holy Spirit in an unspeakable closeness. Our Blessed Mother freely yielded her will to His. As a result, although she retained her God-given freedom, in a real sense her will has been “caught up” into the Will of the Holy Spirit. Mary’s conformity to the Consoler is so complete that His desires, sentiments and plan of action have become hers.
The article later goes on to say how we are in union with the Holy Spirit as well.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=4270&CFID=19785056&CFTOKEN=65700815 This one states how Mary and the Holy Spirit are more intimate than spouses (and therefore, “Spouse” is not a good enough term because it makes the relationship sound so common…or at least that’s how I’m understanding it).
Our Lady is so intimately linked to the Holy Spirit—the Third Person of the Most Blessed Trinity—through her profound love and obedience that we can attest without a trace of exaggeration that she is the Spouse of the Paraclete.
Surrendering with alacrity to the abundant and alluring grace of the Holy Spirit, Mary has pledged herself to Him in the spirit of fidelity, thereby becoming His Chaste Spouse. She has rejected everything that is contrary to the Holy Spirit. She has only one Eternal Spouse: the Beloved Counselor.
And this spousal relationship between the Holy Spirit and Holy Mary is so firm and abiding that it is irrevocable; it cannot be broken or even lessened. The sincere consent given by both parties may not be retracted, so forceful, informed and conscious it was.
Mary is united to the Holy Spirit in an unspeakable closeness. Our Blessed Mother freely yielded her will to His. As a result, although she retained her God-given freedom, in a real sense her will has been “caught up” into the Will of the Holy Spirit. Mary’s conformity to the Consoler is so complete that His desires, sentiments and plan of action have become hers.
The article later goes on to say how we are in union with the Holy Spirit as well.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=4270&CFID=19785056&CFTOKEN=65700815 This one states how Mary and the Holy Spirit are more intimate than spouses (and therefore, “Spouse” is not a good enough term because it makes the relationship sound so common…or at least that’s how I’m understanding it).
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Spun
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All Calvin says is that Helvidius’ argument is poorly made. He does not (unlike Luther) anywhere express a positive belief in the doctrine of her perpetual virginity.
Elsewhere he says,
Elsewhere he says,
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Spun
Guest
It seems likely that the Reformers understood belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity to be a pious opinion which did not violence to the faith and that really didn’t need to be done away with as some Reformers (Helvidius) were trying to do.
As such they tended to view it as an adiaphoron: something permissible but not requisite. Many Lutherans and Anglicans accept and subscribe to the doctrine as a pious belief but not a dogma.
The Reformers are more enthusiastic about the doctrine that she is the Mother of God because this is, clearly, a bulwark of Chalcedonian Christology, any alternative to which makes one a practical heretic. This is the reason most thinking, informed Protestants accept it to this day.
What you will not find is that any of the Reformers believed in the Immaculate Conception
As such they tended to view it as an adiaphoron: something permissible but not requisite. Many Lutherans and Anglicans accept and subscribe to the doctrine as a pious belief but not a dogma.
The Reformers are more enthusiastic about the doctrine that she is the Mother of God because this is, clearly, a bulwark of Chalcedonian Christology, any alternative to which makes one a practical heretic. This is the reason most thinking, informed Protestants accept it to this day.
What you will not find is that any of the Reformers believed in the Immaculate Conception
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BrianH
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Well you learn something every day.
Let me state a couple of things. Mary’s spouse as mentioned in scripture is Joseph. I do not think anyone is denying that but it seems like it is being forgotten. Next, this idea that Mary said yes to the Holy Spirit is not true.
Mary said yes to Gabriel not the Holy Spirit specifically.
Look at the word overshadow as well, it is episkiazō.
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
Mar 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 9:34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and {began} to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
Act 5:15 to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.
I see nothing about her profound love for the Holy Spirit. I am not even sure she knew what that meant. She did understand about God and that he would have a Son, although I kind of sense that it perplexed her.
She did not pledge anything to the Holy Spirit persay. She was talking to Gabriel as a messenger from God. Who does she turn around and sing a song to? God. She does not specifically sing to the Holy Spirit. Mary did not have a 300 year head start on the intricate doctrine of the Trinity.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Martin Luther
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).
Huldreich Zwingli
I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary …; Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin. (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)
It appears that John Calvin believed that Mary could have original sin without passing it on to Jesus.
Neither man believed the doctrines should be formally imposed on believers.
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