The Protestant Veil

[jp4]

I originally joined this forum to grow in my faith, seek clarification on teachings, and learn new things about my church. However, as I have been browsing the forums, I’m having trouble understanding arguments from our Protestant brethren, mainly their point of reference. We can all agree that this is a Catholic forum, but anonymous ability of some posters to hide their point of reference (denomination) makes it difficult for me to construct an adequate response in a fashion that takes into account their perspectives.

As a convert to Catholicism, many people ask me “Why the Catholic Church, was your wife catholic?”. And, I explain that my wife and I **both **converted from being Baptist and why (which I think catholics understand why ). If they pursue the conversation further, I will typically ask what denomination they belong to before continuing further. It just makes the conversation go smoother because I understand their point of reference. For example, Episcopal and Baptist denominations see things differently. Constructing my conversation around this reference point makes my discussion more effective. I don’t use/study apologetics for active purposes, but rather in a more reactive manner (to explain my faith and choices in relation to my homecoming to the church).

Maybe being new to the forum, I missed the part where everyone shared their denominational reference point, but it is fair to ask someone from where their beliefs are rooted (Christian church affiliation)? It is obvious; most of us will be Catholic because of where the forum is hosted. I just find it hard to understand some folks because they hide behind the generic term “Protestant”. Which to me means an extremely diverse set of beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Thoughts?

Humbly,

JP4

 

[Sherlock]

I think that one factor is a very American attitude toward authority of any kind. It’s a kind of immaturity, really…but it certainly fosters the idea that anyone who follows a particular church (and thus a creed) is not thinking for themselves but some mind-numbed robot. The idea that one can both think and follow legitimate authority is hard for modern Americans to swallow—we’re all supposed to admire the brave individual who strikes out on his own. In reality, of course, people do follow others—they simply might not be aware of it, as the culture leads many to think and act a certain way. And a person who really tried to live by that individualistic creed would have to re-invent the wheel constantly—and literally. He would also have to re-invent the application of electricity all for himself; he’d have to invent a telescope all his own so he could discover the planets all over again, etc. Ludicrous, isn’t it? But yet when it comes to theology, why, we have to make it up all on our own and think for ourselves!!

Satan is a clever chap…

 

[mozart-250]

I originally joined this forum to grow in my faith, seek clarification on teachings, and learn new things about my church. However, as I have been browsing the forums, I’m having trouble understanding arguments from our Protestant brethren, mainly their point of reference. We can all agree that this is a Catholic forum, but anonymous ability of some posters to hide their point of reference (denomination) makes it difficult for me to construct an adequate response in a fashion that takes into account their perspectives.

You have my sympathies. I can imagine it is tough for you guys to keep 7,209,735 branches of Protestantism all straight.

What makes it worse is that we are our own popes anyway.

I myself am from a Pentecostal background for the last 20 years(Assembly of God) but have concluded I really am not Pentecostal (maybe Charismatic friendly though) and when we move to another location I will be something else.

From my research, I have concluded I am more a traditional Wesleyan for a number of reasons:

• I am not Calvinistic / OSAS
• I am a Methodist by birth
• John Wesley is the first of the historical Protestants I like and find the fruit of the Spirit strong in (outside of the anabaptists/Mennonites). The Germanic reformers Luther, Zwingli, Calvin leave me lukewarm at best. The only difference I find between them and the Catholics at the time is that Zwingli prefered to drown the anabaptists while the Catholics prefered to fry them. Big deal.
• Wesley for his time period he was in was remarkably tolerant of other Christians of different faiths (see his letter to a Catholic) and did not participate in the practice of heresy hunting.
• I like the Wesley quadrangle approach to the Bible.

I do have a lot of respect for the Catholic faith for their lineage even though I have some quibbles on specifics. I don’t think any of these quibbles are essentials however.

I see my sig got wiped out. Might put that back in.

 

[jp4]

I do have a lot of respect for the Catholic faith for their lineage even though I have some quibbles on specifics. I don’t think any of these quibbles are essentials however.

I have always enjoyed your posts when browsing the forums. I find you are well read and versed in your thoughts. Best of all, your communication of those ideas and principles are clear and consice (to me anyway).

 

[Mystophilus]

… Constructing my conversation around this reference point makes my discussion more effective… I just find it hard to understand some folks because they hide behind the generic term “Protestant”. Which to me means an extremely diverse set of beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other.

I do not mean to sound critical here, but perhaps it might be useful if you were to turn this consciousness of difference of perspective back upon the issue which you are describing. You sound like a very structured thinker, someone who likes to categorise things in order to handle them more effectively. Not everyone feels that way, nor does everyone feel that the labels used to describe them are accurate, or even fair.

 

[jp4]

A good example of what I’m trying to understand is shown the Topic on this forum: Attention Protestants in favor of the Refomation!

The larger discussion has disintegrated into smaller skirmish discussions. I think that original poster’s beginning argument was vague, which led to the break down. None-the-less, several theological positions were presented to refute the original claim. In response, the ensuring crossfire has rendered the effectiveness of the discussion pointless and people extremely defensive and protected in their positions. Even non-catholic posters are leery of each others positions.

Maybe, I’m answering my own question by realizing the futility of what I’m asking. While the concept works in one-on-one personal discussions, such a principle cannot be applied to something a diverse and dynamic as a forum.

I’m looking to learn and grow in God. I figure if I don’t ask the question I may never know the answer.

Humbly,

Jack

 

[jp4]

I do not mean to sound critical here, but perhaps it might be useful if you were to turn this consciousness of difference of perspective back upon the issue which you are describing.

I definitely appreciate your response. A critical response can be positive and a learning experience. I find truth in everything, even though I might not like it .

Not everyone feels that way, nor does everyone feel that the labels used to describe them are accurate, or even fair.

Agreed. In my attempt to be concise in my post, I may have inappropriately applied a generic classification to a diverse group of folks.

Humbly,

Jack

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi Jp,
I agree with you.
I am a born again christian and I go to a non-denom church. This way when we talk you know where I am coming from.

I was raised episcopalian(but do not believe in that denom at all anymore )
When I went searching for a church after my first chilwas born I went to a baptist church because they taught sound biblical principle. They still do but when I left the church had no minister and my children and I were not growing in Christ.

I am where I am now(see above) and am growing in my faith by leaps and bounds. Actually I am off to bible study. I will be studying Daniel(Im so excited). Ill be talking to you on the forums. Thanks for posting.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

JP4,
I was born and raised Catholic, but we were not practicing Catholics. I led a terribly sinful life until my reversion in my early 20s. I was a devout practicing Catholic until the past year or so, although I began questioning my faith at least 2 or more years ago. I am currently attending my old Catholic parish and a Mennonite congregation.

It would be hard to find a label for me just yet . Even when I think of the Catholic church, I realize that the beliefs within are very diverse, even if we know what the magesterium teaches and submit ourselves to it. There are also different charisms within the Catholic church (like “flavors” ), like the various religious orders and confraternities and such. Also, each parish is unique; some being charasmatic, some liberal, some traditional…

It would have been difficult to see what my point of view was just from me telling you I was a Catholic, although you’d know the doctrinal stand the Church I affiliate myself takes.

Even as I think of what I am in agreement with as far as the Mennonites, I also see the liklihood that although we have these things in common, we may see them from different perspectives; applying them to our lives for different motives and in different ways.

I guess I’m saying ditto to Mystophilus.

And welcome!

 

[rr1213]

I originally joined this forum to grow in my faith, seek clarification on teachings, and learn new things about my church. However, as I have been browsing the forums, I’m having trouble understanding arguments from our Protestant brethren, mainly their point of reference. We can all agree that this is a Catholic forum, but anonymous ability of some posters to hide their point of reference (denomination) makes it difficult for me to construct an adequate response in a fashion that takes into account their perspectives.

As a convert to Catholicism, many people ask me “Why the Catholic Church, was your wife catholic?”. And, I explain that my wife and I **both **converted from being Baptist and why (which I think catholics understand why ). If they pursue the conversation further, I will typically ask what denomination they belong to before continuing further. It just makes the conversation go smoother because I understand their point of reference. For example, Episcopal and Baptist denominations see things differently. Constructing my conversation around this reference point makes my discussion more effective. I don’t use/study apologetics for active purposes, but rather in a more reactive manner (to explain my faith and choices in relation to my homecoming to the church).

Maybe being new to the forum, I missed the part where everyone shared their denominational reference point, but it is fair to ask someone from where their beliefs are rooted (Christian church affiliation)? It is obvious; most of us will be Catholic because of where the forum is hosted. I just find it hard to understand some folks because they hide behind the generic term “Protestant”. Which to me means an extremely diverse set of beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Thoughts?

Humbly,

JP4

You are right that different Protestants will have different approaches to issues based on perspectives that are shaped, at least to some degree, by their denominations. I still think that, in the USA at least, there is a common enough Protestant approach to things that you can address Protestants with some idea of what they believe. (The fault lines tend to be not so much based on denominational theology but, instead, on things such as evangelical/charismatic, liturgical/non-liturgical, liberal/conservative…divisions that you can also find within the Catholic Church). Still, it would not hurt Protestant posters on these boards to identify by their signature or profile what their faith tradition may be.

 

[Chipper]

I originally joined this forum to grow in my faith, seek clarification on teachings, and learn new things about my church. However, as I have been browsing the forums, I’m having trouble understanding arguments from our Protestant brethren, mainly their point of reference. We can all agree that this is a Catholic forum, but anonymous ability of some posters to hide their point of reference (denomination) makes it difficult for me to construct an adequate response in a fashion that takes into account their perspectives.

As a convert to Catholicism, many people ask me “Why the Catholic Church, was your wife catholic?”. And, I explain that my wife and I **both **converted from being Baptist and why (which I think catholics understand why ). If they pursue the conversation further, I will typically ask what denomination they belong to before continuing further. It just makes the conversation go smoother because I understand their point of reference. For example, Episcopal and Baptist denominations see things differently. Constructing my conversation around this reference point makes my discussion more effective. I don’t use/study apologetics for active purposes, but rather in a more reactive manner (to explain my faith and choices in relation to my homecoming to the church).

Maybe being new to the forum, I missed the part where everyone shared their denominational reference point, but it is fair to ask someone from where their beliefs are rooted (Christian church affiliation)? It is obvious; most of us will be Catholic because of where the forum is hosted. I just find it hard to understand some folks because they hide behind the generic term “Protestant”. Which to me means an extremely diverse set of beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Thoughts?

Humbly,

JP4

Perhaps part of the problem is that most “protestants”, don’t really identify themselves inwardly as a “Baptist”, or a “Methodist”,…etc.

I was reading the Newspaper the otherday, and recent polls suggest that the majority of the protestants would rather refer to themselves as “followers of Christ”, or rather just Christians.

In fact we have a bible study every Friday at lunch time, at my place of employment. This has been going on for two years, and I still don’t know what denomination, some of the participants belong to. BUT, they all know I am a Catholic.

 

[Verita]

Perhaps part of the problem is that most “protestants”, don’t really identify themselves inwardly as a “Baptist”, or a “Methodist”,…etc.

I was reading the Newspaper the otherday, and recent polls suggest that the majority of the protestants would rather refer to themselves as “followers of Christ”, or rather just Christians.

This is a very correct assessment. I came into Catholicism out of a non-denominational church to which most of my family goes. And they are all of the sort that prefer to think of themselves as just Christian. I remember once having to fill out an application that asked my denomination and having no idea what to put. And I think by refusing to use denominational names some Protestants think they are getting back to the roots of their faith, to the time of the Apostles. They think they are imitating the early Church.

However, as Hilaire Belloc said there never was a religion called Christianity. There was only ever the Church of Christ.

 

[rr1213]

I was reading the Newspaper the otherday, and recent polls suggest that the majority of the protestants would rather refer to themselves as “followers of Christ”, or rather just Christians.

I could be wrong, but in my experience at least this would be non-denoms or strong evangelicals. Most folks I know will tell you that they are Baptist, or Methodist, or Presbyterian, etc.

 

[Verita]

I could be wrong, but in my experience at least this would be non-denoms or strong evangelicals. Most folks I know will tell you that they are Baptist, or Methodist, or Presbyterian, etc.

Not necessarily. I remember once listening to a Catholic Answers were a caller insisted on calling himself merely Christian and only upon being pressed admitted that he went to a Baptist church. And I’ve seen other examples where people don’t identify themselves with the church they go to, they just happen to go to it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is a very correct assessment. I came into Catholicism out of a non-denominational church to which most of my family goes. And they are all of the sort that prefer to think of themselves as just Christian. I remember once having to fill out an application that asked my denomination and having no idea what to put. And I think by refusing to use denominational names some Protestants think they are getting back to the roots of their faith, to the time of the Apostles.

They think they are imitating the early Church.

I could be reading this statement wrong but, if you look in the book of acts you will find the word christian. Acts 11:19-30 focus on verse 26.
Wouldn’t we all consider ourselves christians. Christian means follower of Christ. Christianity really doesnt have anything to do with denominations. Those terms were established by humans.

 

[Verita]

Wouldn’t we all consider ourselves christians. Christian means follower of Christ. Christianity really doesnt have anything to do with denominations. Those terms were established by humans.

Well, if you’re going to put it that way so was the word “christian”.

And I’ve no problem with people wanting to be like the early Church. I think everyone should. In fact, I am becoming Catholic so that I can.

I think what Belloc meant is that there was no sort of general Christianity. No religion where you had to believe a certain list of “basics” as some Protestants like to call it to be considered a Christian. There was no, as long as you believe in the Creed you can be considered Christian. No, from the beginning there was the Church and everything the Church preached was truth. You couldn’t pick and choose. It was all or nothing.

 

[Syele]

I originally joined this forum to grow in my faith, seek clarification on teachings, and learn new things about my church. However, as I have been browsing the forums, I’m having trouble understanding arguments from our Protestant brethren, mainly their point of reference. We can all agree that this is a Catholic forum, but anonymous ability of some posters to hide their point of reference (denomination) makes it difficult for me to construct an adequate response in a fashion that takes into account their perspectives.

As a convert to Catholicism, many people ask me “Why the Catholic Church, was your wife catholic?”. And, I explain that my wife and I **both **converted from being Baptist and why (which I think catholics understand why ). If they pursue the conversation further, I will typically ask what denomination they belong to before continuing further. It just makes the conversation go smoother because I understand their point of reference. For example, Episcopal and Baptist denominations see things differently. Constructing my conversation around this reference point makes my discussion more effective. I don’t use/study apologetics for active purposes, but rather in a more reactive manner (to explain my faith and choices in relation to my homecoming to the church).

Maybe being new to the forum, I missed the part where everyone shared their denominational reference point, but it is fair to ask someone from where their beliefs are rooted (Christian church affiliation)? It is obvious; most of us will be Catholic because of where the forum is hosted. I just find it hard to understand some folks because they hide behind the generic term “Protestant”. Which to me means an extremely diverse set of beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Thoughts?

Humbly,

JP4

I grew up in an inter-denominational church and currently attend a non-denominational one. Neither Church had alot of particular doctrines for you to know what we believe through the designation the churches hold. I used to have Arminian in my profile just so people could know that I’m not Calvinist. It really didn’t help at all. The people who were filled with hate towards protestants in general didn’t care (I was still evil), Some thought I went to a church that was Arminian or that called themselves followers of Arminus and based arguments on my following that church (that made everything inaccurate) and others didn’t seem to even check profiles to see what it said anyhow.

I don’t think of myself as a protestant. I think of myself as a Christian. Why should I get a new title just because Catholics want me to have one?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Well, if you’re going to put it that way so was the word “christian”.

And I’ve no problem with people wanting to be like the early Church. I think everyone should. In fact, I am becoming Catholic so that I can.

I think what Belloc meant is that there was no sort of general Christianity. No religion where you had to believe a certain list of “basics” as some Protestants like to call it to be considered a Christian. There was no, as long as you believe in the Creed you can be considered Christian. No, from the beginning there was the Church and everything the Church preached was truth. You couldn’t pick and choose. It was all or nothing.

Hi yes I agree. I would also say that in order to become a true christian you have to be a true believer in Christ and all that He did and admit your a sinner and repent. Then you need to walk by the spirit and not the flesh. So that really could be anyone anywhere and in any church. At my church we do not have this long list of do’s and dont’s outside of what the bible teaches. Besides there is enough in there to last a lifetime of learning. My minister told us that he taught his children that they could do whatever they wanted as llong as it PLEASES GOD. I thought WOW that is great because if they are pleasing God they cant be doing anything wrong. Ive started doing that with my kids.

Peace
AFH

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I grew up in an inter-denominational church and currently attend a non-denominational one. Neither Church had alot of particular doctrines for you to know what we believe through the designation the churches hold. I used to have Arminian in my profile just so people could know that I’m not Calvinist. It really didn’t help at all. The people who were filled with hate towards protestants in general didn’t care (I was still evil), Some thought I went to a church that was Arminian or that called themselves followers of Arminus and based arguments on my following that church (that made everything inaccurate) and others didn’t seem to even check profiles to see what it said anyhow.

I

don’t think of myself as a protestant. I think of myself as a Christian. Why should I get a new title just because Catholics want me to have one?

AMEN SISTER:thumbsup: :clapping: I am what I am and I am a christian. I follow Christ not man.

Peace

AFH

 

[a_cermak]

I’ve had my denom in my sig for a while now, though I must admit, I stole the idea from Contarini.