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anika001
Guest
Hmm. So Lutherans are cafeteria catholics? I knew it!
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pablope
Guest
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SteveVH
Guest
Sorry I missed this post, Kathleen. Very well said. This is something that I think a lot of people gloss over; the divine nature of the Church. It all comes down to the fact that this Church belongs to Jesus and there is not any man or woman, from within or from without, that can destroy it. Not even the gates of hell. This is something completely ignored by those who claim the Church went off the rails at some point and lost the truth.
We believe in infallibility because of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, not because of some great man. We believe that priests can forgive our sins because Jesus gave them that power, very specifically. We believe in the real presence because when God speaks it happens; God said let there be light and there was light and God said this is my body… this is my blood, and it is, regardless of one’s lack of faith in believing his words. We believe it because of the one who told us and when Christ asks if we will also leave we reply, with the Apostles, “to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life”.
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PJM
Guest
I agree; well done both of you:thumbsup:
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Attejohannes
Guest
No, we are not. But catholics can become protestants, As Martin Luther gave an example in his commentary to Galathians (Section 4:30):
"So did Bernhard (of Clairvaux), man who was righteous, holy and chaste to such extent, that I think he can with good reason be called better than all the other monastics. Once, when he was very ill, and had lost all the hope of recovery, he did not base his hope on his celibacy, which he had kept with very pure mind, not on his good works, and the righteously fulfilled duties, which he had had many, but removed all this very far from his sight, embraced with Faith the Christ’s mediation and said: “Miserably I have lived, but You, Christ the Lord have the Kingdom of Heaven by double right: firstly because you are the Son of God, and secondly, because you have earned it by your passion and death. The first is yours as your bithright, the second you donate to me, not becuse of my works but by grace”
"So did Bernhard (of Clairvaux), man who was righteous, holy and chaste to such extent, that I think he can with good reason be called better than all the other monastics. Once, when he was very ill, and had lost all the hope of recovery, he did not base his hope on his celibacy, which he had kept with very pure mind, not on his good works, and the righteously fulfilled duties, which he had had many, but removed all this very far from his sight, embraced with Faith the Christ’s mediation and said: “Miserably I have lived, but You, Christ the Lord have the Kingdom of Heaven by double right: firstly because you are the Son of God, and secondly, because you have earned it by your passion and death. The first is yours as your bithright, the second you donate to me, not becuse of my works but by grace”
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PJM
Guest
My friend,
WELCOME TO CAF!
What keeps being missed in this discussion is that there is NO; None’ Zip; Zerro thing after Baptism and mans sin that ALONE will merit ones salvation.
The CC; the Bible and Christ Himself teach that Salvation is a Process in which minimally; EACH of th following are absolutely essential.
Baptism John 3:5
[true; that is Christ taught and permitted]Faith Though Grace Eph. 2:8
Full and complete Obedience to All of the Commandments Mt. 19:17
“Good works” MEANING acts of charity
Use this site for easy look-up http://www.drbo.org/
1st. Cor.13: 1-14
Eph. 3:19
2nd. Thess.3:5
1st. Tim.1:5
Heb. 10:24
1st. Peter 4:8
1st. John 4:7
Rev.2:19
It’s an “all or noting sum deal”
God’s continued Blessings
weclcome!
pat/PJM
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Attejohannes
Guest
I remember having done in my whole life a single " good work", and that I then lost in one nanosecond.My friend,
WELCOME TO CAF!
What keeps being missed in this discussion is that there is NO; None’ Zip; Zerro thing after Baptism and mans sin that ALONE will merit ones salvation.
The CC; the Bible and Christ Himself teach that Salvation is a Process in which minimally; EACH of th following are absolutely essential.
Baptism John 3:5
[true; that is Christ taught and permitted]Faith Though Grace Eph. 2:8
Full and complete Obedience to All of the Commandments Mt. 19:17
“Good works” MEANING acts of charity
Use this site for easy look-up http://www.drbo.org/
1st. Cor.13: 1-14
Eph. 3:19
2nd. Thess.3:5
1st. Tim.1:5
Heb. 10:24
1st. Peter 4:8
1st. John 4:7
Rev.2:19
It’s an “all or noting sum deal”
God’s continued Blessings
weclcome!
pat/PJM
I was doing my military service and by a stroke of luck got an easy and clean office job. One weekend, the whole company was ordered into a rather nasty outdoor drill. After giving the ordered, the Master Sargeant said to me: Well, you probably have so much to do in the office that you cannot atted. No Sir, I instinctively declared. I am completely free to atted the drill. The Sargeant looked at me astonished and said: Well, for that kind of honesty I ought to reward you, but by your own admission, into the detail you go. I had answered instinctively, and for a second, I congratulated myself: I am honest, what a fine chap I am!.And then I lost the good work and any eventual merit.
This was to illustrated the Lutheran view of works. They are a result of the Holy Spirit in a justified Person changing his Nature, making a bad tree a good tree producing good fruit. A tree does not decide or strive to make fruit, it does it because it is part of its nature. it cannot do anything else. Any work done on human initiative and with an intention to earn merit or contribute to one’s sanctification/salvation is actually a sin, however superficially good it looks.
I am quite certain that on the Day of Judgement the righteous are sincerely surprised, when they ask: Lord, when did we see You see hungry etc…? They cannot remember anything special. And vice versa, the damned are probably able to memorise many acts of charity that they did to make themselves ready for Heaven…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Steve,
That would mean my salvation is at serious risk and I have condemned myself, since I know what the Catholic Church teaches.
Anna
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peace2u2
Guest
I believe its called being disobedient. In which, they would be purified in purgatory of such sin…
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riley13Kraus
Guest
Open to helpful information. Can handle constructive insights. Our issue below
My husband and I have always been Catholic. We were married in the Catholic Church, our children were baptized and we raised them as Catholics. When my grandson was born 8 years ago, I pushed to have him baptized in the Catholic Church.
I was raised in California, my husband was raised in Wisconsin. We meet in California when I was 18 and he was twenty three. We stayed in California for the first 10 years of our marriage and since 1985 we have lived just north of Nashville TN. Our children are each in there 30’s.
My husband and I have been attending a wonderful, productive, stimulating Baptist Church. We both like the preacher, the fellow parishioners, the eagerness to help the community we live in, the music, the preaching, and I have got so much out of one small group that discussed being a Godly wife.
Last Sunday my husband went up when they asked who would like to accept Christ as your Savior. I was taken back and then I realized that my husband had done all he was told to do, but no one, including me, realized he had not developed the best part of being a Christian, a deep relationship with Jesus. And then I realized that we are not the only Catholics looking more. We are not the only Catholics needing more. We have attended Marriage Encounter, twice. We have both been on a criseo, and retreats. I listen only to Christian music. My husband leads us each day in our daily devotional, prayer both in the morning and night.
And than the church we grew up in has changed. Not from the Pope down but from the parishioners up. We now have married priests, we have less times for confession and we have less personal involvement with the parish as a whole. I have never believed I need anyone but Jesus to get me home, but in California, I always had a good relationship with the priests of our parish. When we moved to Tennessee we knew the Catholic population was less. I got to work for our church, but soon saw that church people can behave terribly.
We went to several different churches but we have not found one that we can be eager to attend.
My husband stated that he is going to ask specific question, but he does not want to lose his redemption, if he were to chose to attend the Baptist church.
My husband and I have always been Catholic. We were married in the Catholic Church, our children were baptized and we raised them as Catholics. When my grandson was born 8 years ago, I pushed to have him baptized in the Catholic Church.
I was raised in California, my husband was raised in Wisconsin. We meet in California when I was 18 and he was twenty three. We stayed in California for the first 10 years of our marriage and since 1985 we have lived just north of Nashville TN. Our children are each in there 30’s.
My husband and I have been attending a wonderful, productive, stimulating Baptist Church. We both like the preacher, the fellow parishioners, the eagerness to help the community we live in, the music, the preaching, and I have got so much out of one small group that discussed being a Godly wife.
Last Sunday my husband went up when they asked who would like to accept Christ as your Savior. I was taken back and then I realized that my husband had done all he was told to do, but no one, including me, realized he had not developed the best part of being a Christian, a deep relationship with Jesus. And then I realized that we are not the only Catholics looking more. We are not the only Catholics needing more. We have attended Marriage Encounter, twice. We have both been on a criseo, and retreats. I listen only to Christian music. My husband leads us each day in our daily devotional, prayer both in the morning and night.
And than the church we grew up in has changed. Not from the Pope down but from the parishioners up. We now have married priests, we have less times for confession and we have less personal involvement with the parish as a whole. I have never believed I need anyone but Jesus to get me home, but in California, I always had a good relationship with the priests of our parish. When we moved to Tennessee we knew the Catholic population was less. I got to work for our church, but soon saw that church people can behave terribly.
We went to several different churches but we have not found one that we can be eager to attend.
My husband stated that he is going to ask specific question, but he does not want to lose his redemption, if he were to chose to attend the Baptist church.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Riley,
Ask yourself several questions.
What is it you are leaving?
What is it you are getting?
What is it you want?
I ask you to get hold of the Audio Catechism USA for adults and listen to it. A small $42 investment before you make any decisions. Ask your husband to listen to it as well.
Did you know that the Catechism is divided into 4 parts?
**Profession of Faith. ** What we believe. There is a history behind this and the resultant Creed came by way of other than just a Sunday or Wednesday Bible study. These Bible studies take for granted what was professed and believed and how it came about.
Every Sunday we recite this and when you go to a Baptist ecclesial community you will renounce the belief in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the baptism for the remission of sins, because Baptists sprang from the Anglicans, that departed from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, so in effect you are distancing yourself from the truths of the Faith.
Next
**Sacramental Life. ** We believe in living this Sacramental life and you will be giving this up as part of your denouncing that you believe in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Faith. There is no grace to be had in grape juice and bread via an ordinance of the lords supper. You will be distancing yourself from the grace of God and if that is what you want then that is what you should do.
Life in Christ. We are to model Christ and follow the commandments and you should realize that historically Protestants including Baptists have a checkered past concerning Pro life and Pro choice forces. If you believe that the Baptist history on abortion represents the Pilar and Foundation of Truth then by all means go Baptist. Whose responsibility is it to Model Christ? Is it based on ministries, bible studies, women’s groups, or any other organization? I always thought it was my responsibility and if you find that you and your husband lack something, is it perhaps recognition and understanding combined with effort? Monks in cloister, and people like John of the Cross find Christ, why can we not do the same?
**Prayer. ** We are to pray, in fact pray without ceasing. Do you find that Baptists have learned to pray in ways you have not explored, if so, learn to pray as you ought.
So, recall I asked you to question yourself…
What is it you are leaving?
What is it you are getting?
What is it you want?
Only you know…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Jones,
I often do good works, I often am pleased with them. In maturity when I realize that I am doing something that is pleasing to God and that I get rewarded for it, tears well up in my eyes sometimes and I think…wow…look what I am allowed to do by the grace of God and look how loving the Father is who bestows his Fatherly joy in his child He is giving the ability to please Him…knowing that whatever I do, I do not do, and whatever I earn I have not earned without the grace needed to do it and with that in mind an understanding that on my own I can do nothning.
You may be missing out on some good works and the benefits God gives you. You should pay more attention to what you are doing…or rather whatever good you are doing by the grace of God…
or
You can keep thiniking you are a miserable wretch…your choice…
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Porknpie
Guest
Riley, your question is simple.
Follow a Church established 2000 years ago by Jesus Christ with seven sacraments, including the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. A Church that holds the deposit of faith to be the bible …written by, for and about the same Catholic church and Tradition.
Or follow a Church established who knows when, led by a Pastor who will self interpret the bible…differently than the Pastor down the street…and likely will have only have two sacraments. One of which is baptism in which infant baptism is not practiced…contrary to scripture and Tradition.
Coptic is right. Why leave and what are you looking for?
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CopticChristian
Guest
Pen Name Anna,
Do you really and truly believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and is without doubt the one and only Church and that the OHCAC is composed of Orthodox, Catholic, and all baptized in the trinitarian formula?
Now that question requires that you accept all not just part…so can you answer…
I do believe all
or
I do believe part
let me know how you see this…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Coptic, Coptic, Coptic,Pen Name Anna,
Do you really and truly believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and is without doubt the one and only Church and that the OHCAC is composed of Orthodox, Catholic, and all baptized in the trinitarian formula?
Now that question requires that you accept all not just part…so can you answer…
I do believe all
or
I do believe part
let me know how you see this…
No. If I truly believed all of that, I would swim the Tiber. :coolinoff:
Pen,
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Pen Name Anna,
Then I can conclude you know who I am for sure.
I can conclude that you believe part of what I posted.
I can conclude that you know where the Tiber is.
I can conclude you know how to swim.
I can conclude that you need to cool off as this may have caused distress and that in consideration of your question…
knowing what I know and knowing what you know should cause us to think and believe to a greater or lesser extent what it is we know and in that regard the severity of your risk is less than you might imagine and perhaps no greater than mine and neither of us should consider condemnation as a personal act based on what you say.
Next I would ask you what do you think about your posting and if it causes you no distress then just smile…and I really don’t need you to tell me what you think about what you thought about your posting…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Say what?Pen Name Anna,
Then I can conclude you know who I am for sure.
I can conclude that you believe part of what I posted.
I can conclude that you know where the Tiber is.
I can conclude you know how to swim.
I can conclude that you need to cool off as this may have caused distress and that in consideration of your question…
knowing what I know and knowing what you know should cause us to think and believe to a greater or lesser extent what it is we know and in that regard the severity of your risk is less than you might imagine and perhaps no greater than mine and neither of us should consider condemnation as a personal act based on what you say.
Next I would ask you what do you think about your posting and if it causes you no distress then just smile…and I really don’t need you to tell me what you think about what you thought about your posting…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
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Attejohannes
Guest
There are two ways to be happy over a good act. I can sincerely say something like: “I am happy, if I have been of any assistance”, when I have been in that priviledged position. I have been and am happy, when I sometimes have been instrumental for something good to happen or in the prevention of something bad to happen. But I flee from any idea that I would have ever done anything meritorius in the sense that it would put God under some kind of obligation (Luke 17: 7-10).Jones,
I often do good works, I often am pleased with them. In maturity when I realize that I am doing something that is pleasing to God and that I get rewarded for it, tears well up in my eyes sometimes and I think…wow…look what I am allowed to do by the grace of God and look how loving the Father is who bestows his Fatherly joy in his child He is giving the ability to please Him…knowing that whatever I do, I do not do, and whatever I earn I have not earned without the grace needed to do it and with that in mind an understanding that on my own I can do nothning.
You may be missing out on some good works and the benefits God gives you. You should pay more attention to what you are doing…or rather whatever good you are doing by the grace of God…
or
You can keep thiniking you are a miserable wretch…your choice…
The other way is to bargain with God - if I now do this act of charity, look what a Good Boy I am, please keep this in your records. The Lutheran view is that this kind of a “good work” is a sin.
I have been reminded that a father specially loves an obedient child. I sincerely rejoice as a father, if my children behave well out of love and respect to me. I would have been very sad, if any of my sons would have got an idea of my love for them being conditional of their behaviour or, even worse, had I discerned a calculating spirit behind the (superficially) impeccable behaviour.
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