THe proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

[Lisa4Catholics]

Stingray:

hello. CARM is the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. They can be found at carm.org/index.html Their boards are great. I spend a lot of my time on the Catholic board. There are many Catholic regulars there and we have some really good discussions. Right now the Catholic board is down, but there is an alternate board available and the regular board should be up soon. You should check it out sometime. As to your questions, I’ve never met any protestant who taught that once one is saved they can sin all they want to. It is a mischaracterization of protestants and as you can see such a statement was not made in the pamphlet the original poster provided. Protestants teach that we are saved by grace through faith for good works. This teaching can be found in the book of Ephesians. We are not saved by good works, but rather for them. We do good works because we are saved. Furthermore, we don’t teach that one should not repent. The scriptures teach that one should repent and believe. We agree with this. There is no mockery.

God bless,
Stingray

Catholics don’t believe works save you either.Just so you will know and yes there are Protestants who believe and preach theat,I know some,it is sad.God Bless

 

[Stingray]

Quick question, whats CARM?

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Check out over at carm.org/index.html

First of all whats this preaching to the choir stuff?

**That’s when you telling everyone what they already agree with. Do you see how that can be boring. Not only that, but your thought process becomes stagnant because you are never challenged with an opposing view. Have you ever actually listened to what protestants have to say rather than deciding for yourself what it is you think they teach and believe? I know I wouldn’t be comfortable saying Catholics believe this or teach this if I wasn’t sure that is what they actually teach or believe. Shouldn’t one at least have the respect for others to check out first hand what exactly it is that they are saying before making judgements? **

Who is the Catholic and who is the one Protesting (and at the same time by protesting recognizing the Catholic Church’s authority)?

**Not sure what you are asking here. **

One thing that killed me when I was at Prot churches was when they went aroung saying nothing but grace, faith, etc. When I finally read the Bible on my own I was scared to find how hard it was to get to Heaven. You have to give up everything, take up your cross, do good works, etc, or else Christ will not recognize you-“not all who say Lord Lord will enter”. There is nothing “simple” about it, being a Christian is not something you do on Sunday only, it is 24-7. It is the hardest thing to be.

**It’s one thing to talk about how difficult it is to be a disciple of Christ and another to talk about salvation. Christians are saved by grace through faith for good works. We are called to count the cost, take up our cross, to follow Christ. No one denies that, but no one will be justified by works. That is the teaching of scripture. **

The dagger for Protestants: WHO WAS THE FIRST APOSTLE TO DIE FOR HIS LORD? IT WAS STEPHEN, AND WHAT WAS HE DOING? HE WAS FEEDING THE HUNGRY!

He didnt go home to his couch and turn on ESPN and think that he had a free ride into heaven.

You are confusing a sincere act of faith on ones death bed with someone who feels that they have a green card to do whatever they want AFTER being “saved”.

**No real Christian teaches what you are arguing against. You are arguing against a straw man. You make your little straw man up and then take joy in tearing him to pieces. You should really try listening to what others have to say. **

God bless,
**Stingray **

 

[michaelp]

TNT:

So, there are “Pro-Catholic” Protestants??
What in the name of heaven are they “protesting” then?
Does that make you a “no-protesting” protestant?

I am a non-Roman Catholic evangelical who doesn’t hate Roman Catholics and does not think that you are all going to hell as some militant anti-Roman Catholic fundementalistic Protestants do. That is all that I was saying.

BTW: Protestant is an unfortunate term that does not characterize what Protestants truly are and truly believe since we don’t think that we broke away from the Church, but that Roman Catholics did in the 16th centrury (althought he separation began in the 12th century). A better term would be Reformer or Evangelical. Protestant carries a negative connotation and is rather pejorative. But, alas, it is what Trent labeled us with the term “Protestant”, and we have been stuck with it ever since. I would never have conceded to the label. I would have keep the label catholic and let the followers of Trent call themselves Roman Catholic.

Anyway, subject of another thread.

Michael

 

[dennisknapp]

michaelp:

I am a non-Roman Catholic evangelical who doesn’t hate Roman Catholics and does not think that you are all going to hell as some militant anti-Roman Catholic fundementalistic Protestants do. That is all that I was saying.

BTW: Protestant is an unfortunate term that does not characterize what Protestants truly are and truly believe since we don’t think that we broke away from the Church, but that Roman Catholics did in the 16th centrury (althought he separation began in the 12th century). A better term would be Reformer or Evangelical. Protestant carries a negative connotation and is rather pejorative. But, alas, it is what Trent labeled us with the term “Protestant”, and we have been stuck with it ever since. I would never have conceded to the label. I would have keep the label catholic and let the followers of Trent call themselves Roman Catholic.

Anyway, subject of another thread.

Michael

Yes, this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=471479#post471479

Which, by the way, you have not responded to.

Peace

 

[MaggieOH]

TNT:

I’d be mad too if my parents raised me as a “Baptist”. Sweet revenge on Satan. Who was completely hornswagled (deceived) by the Crucifixion. This is his reminder.
The 3 groups that disdain the crucifix are:

1. Muslims.
2. Satan.
3. Modern day sect protestants.

I think that I would differentiate between the Baptists, LDS, JWs, SDA and then all the other Protestants.

MaggieOH

 

[dennisknapp]

michaelp:

I am a non-Roman Catholic evangelical who doesn’t hate Roman Catholics and does not think that you are all going to hell as some militant anti-Roman Catholic fundementalistic Protestants do. That is all that I was saying.

BTW: Protestant is an unfortunate term that does not characterize what Protestants truly are and truly believe since we don’t think that we broke away from the Church, but that Roman Catholics did in the 16th centrury (althought he separation began in the 12th century). A better term would be Reformer or Evangelical. Protestant carries a negative connotation and is rather pejorative. But, alas, it is what Trent labeled us with the term “Protestant”, and we have been stuck with it ever since. I would never have conceded to the label. I would have keep the label catholic and let the followers of Trent call themselves Roman Catholic.

Anyway, subject of another thread.

Michael

Yes, this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=471479#post471479

Which, by the way, you have not responded to.

Peace

 

[Stingray]

Catholics don’t believe works save you either.Just so you will know and yes there are Protestants who believe and preach theat,I know some,it is sad.God Bless

I do know the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that one is saved by grace. It is all of God. Yet, they also teach that works enabled by grace play a role in salvation. It’s a very nuanced position and it must be studied carefully in order to fully understand what it is they are saying. I think there is confusion because of this and that is why there are in fact many Catholics who believe in salvation by works. As to your comments regarding protestants who believe and preach salvation by works. If by "protestant’ you mean non-Catholic, then I would agree. However, if you are talking about someone who believes in the traditional teachings of the reformation, then I would give a qualified no. While traditional protestant teaching is that we are saved by grace through faith alone, it is possible for anyone regardless of their denomination or background to be deceived into thinking that his or her works somehow contribute to their salvation.

God bless,
Stingray

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Stingray:

First of all whats this preaching to the choir stuff?

**Do you see how that can be boring. Not only that, but your thought process becomes stagnant because you are never challenged with an opposing view. I have lived the opposing view. ** Have you ever actually listened to what protestants have to say rather than deciding for yourself what it is you think they teach and believe? There are so many versions of what Prots teach they cant agree on anything. I know I wouldn’t be comfortable saying Catholics believe this or teach this if I wasn’t sure that is what they actually teach or believe. Shouldn’t one at least have the respect for others to check out first hand what exactly it is that they are saying before making judgements? Sorry if I come off strong, were so used to getting the same stuff thrown at us we are defensive sometimes.

Who is the Catholic and who is the one Protesting (and at the same time by protesting recognizing the Catholic Church’s authority)?

Not sure what you are asking here. You call yourself Protestant, what are you Protesting?

One thing that killed me when I was at Prot churches was when they went aroung saying nothing but grace, faith, etc. When I finally read the Bible on my own I was scared to find how hard it was to get to Heaven. You have to give up everything, take up your cross, do good works, etc, or else Christ will not recognize you-“not all who say Lord Lord will enter”. There is nothing “simple” about it, being a Christian is not something you do on Sunday only, it is 24-7. It is the hardest thing to be.

**It’s one thing to talk about how difficult it is to be a disciple of Christ and another to talk about salvation. They go hand in hand. ** Christians are saved by grace through faith for good works. I am betting this will boil down into the same faith alone thing. You are the first Prot I have seen use “for good works” at the end of your faith alone clause. We are called to count the cost, take up our cross, to follow Christ. No one denies that, but no one will be justified by works. Theres two kinds of works. You are thinking that I am referring to going out with my calculator and looking up in the Bible how much I have to do to get to Heaven regardless of what Jesus said and do it and secure a place for myself.No. Grace has to be backed up by worksor else its dead. That is the teaching of scripture. There is more to salvation than faith, you seem to acknowledge that. So what do you mean by “for good works”?

The dagger for Protestants: WHO WAS THE FIRST APOSTLE TO DIE FOR HIS LORD? IT WAS STEPHEN, AND WHAT WAS HE DOING? HE WAS FEEDING THE HUNGRY!

He didnt go home to his couch and turn on ESPN and think that he had a free ride into heaven.

You are confusing a sincere act of faith on ones death bed with someone who feels that they have a green card to do whatever they want AFTER being “saved”.

No real Christian teaches what you are arguing against. Thats what almost every Prot that comes in here says, but at the end of the day thats exactly what they believe. You are arguing against a straw man. Your right, the Protestant position is a strong as straw. You make your little straw man up and then take joy in tearing him to pieces. At the end of the day its a text book ending, the same old formula is applied and the pain is cured. You should really try listening to what others have to say. In your case im all ears.

God bless,
**Stingray **

 

[michaelp]

MaggieOH:

I think that I would differentiate between the Baptists, LDS, JWs, SDA and then all the other Protestants.

MaggieOH

Thank you. I really appreaciate this Maggie, since Protestants are usually lumped together with all “Christian” non-Catholics.

Michael

 

[Darrel]

TNT:

Funny thing. Satan detests both of your sacramentals They are the primary elements of exorcisms.
Satan rues the day he saw Christ on the Cross. Thought he won.
I like to remind him of how he let himself be decieved.
Again, St Paul preaches “Christ and Him Crucified”…foolishness to the gentiles.
We simply do the same.

Speaking of exorcism,

I live in Connecticut and spent some time traveling around the state in the stupidity of my youth working with the Warrens (Amityville Horror people). They may be a tad on the flake end of things but the people who call them for help have real fear and real problems. It’s interesting how whenever help is needed a Catholic Priest or Bishop shows up to take care of things. The Lord has closed some doors for me that I never even knew were opened after my time with them. The problems were shown to me 15 plus years later in adoration. I think I will stick with the original Church from now on.

-D

 

[michaelp]

dennisknapp:

Yes, this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=471479#post471479

Which, by the way, you have not responded to.

Peace

I saw that Dennis. By the time I noticed it, it was already up to over 100 posts in one day!! I did not have time to get caught up since I am limited to one major engagement in a thread at a time (family thing–want to stay married, see my kids from time to time. . . you know, all that stuff ).

I may start a thread that explains and lays out the arguments that what we see as Roman Catholicism today did not begin until the late middle ages. I am surprised that so many people here are surprized by this. It has always been the evangelical view, generally speaking, and was the view of the Reformers. Anyway, later . . .

Michael

 

[Stingray]

WELCOME TO THE ROLLS ROYCE VERSION OF CARM!

I’m sure Matt Slick, the founder of CARM, would get a kick out of that.

We don’t get “flat tires”.

Yeah, I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve been told something similar has happened in the past, but I wasn’t around to see it. Hope they can fix it soon.

There are quite a few Prot’s who come here. The trolls get blown out fast but the honest seeker-debaters are kept for dessert.

Yeah, I don’t think anyone really cares for trolls.

It is not “FAITH ALONE” that brings final salvation.
Are you ready?

It is the OBEDIENCE of Faith that brings final salvation.

****That makes 2 things essential:

1. DIVINE FAITH (aka belief, if you insist)
2. OBEDIENCE TO THAT DIVINE FAITH.
   So, how far apart are we now?

Well, you must recognize that we don’t speak of salvation in the same terms. For instance, you say “final salvation” is not through faith alone. We don’t speak of “final salvation”. Salvation is by grace through faith alone and it is the present and lasting possession of the saved. It is eternal life began at the moment of salvation. As far as obedience is concerned, it comes with faith. That faith is not of ourselves, but a gift from God. I believe even the CC recognizes this fact. If one has no obedience, it is questionable as to whether or not they have faith. Yet, it is through faith alone that we are are saved and not through obedience or works done in obedience. Without faith, we wouldn’t have obedience.

For some reason I like you already. No idea why.

I usually just munch on prot’s an spit out the seeds.:bowdown2:

Mabe I sniff a Catholic sense…James Whiteism not withstanding. So, yur safe for now.

If I find out you have no sense of humor, or ignore questions, yur fish food.:bigyikes:

God bless,
Stingray

 

[Stingray]

wanted to say I’ve really enjoyed my visit here and I’m really glad I came. For those who I haven’t replied to yet please be patient. I will try to get back over here tomorrow if I get a chance. I will definitely be coming here more often, that is, as long as you will have me. Hope to speak with you again soon. Goodnight and God bless, Stingray.

 

[TheGarg]

Stingray:

**No real Christian teaches what you are arguing against. You are arguing against a straw man. **

Who are you to say this? The people who preach these untruths think they are real christian. What authority are you to say they are not real christians. Not much by your own bliefs, right?

For all your fancy little “tricks” you think you know, which I hope one day you can allow yourself to see the Truth.

1. You can’t expain the first 1500 years of Chistianity, where there were no Potestants.
2. You can’t explain away the fact the the Catholic Church organized and produced the Bible, like mentioned previously around 390A.D.
3. You can’t explain away the fact that your beliefs are based on “documents”[sola scriptura, sola fida], not any form of scripture, written by Martin Luther, who was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, I might add, since Luther’s documents were meant to take away the authority given to Christ’s Church, by Christ Himself I might add…
4. Your church, or “organization”, was not started by Christ.

With all these major holes in your beliefs, don’t you think that it might be time to reassess your beliefs??

Peace of the Lord be with you!

 

[HilaryJ]

Coptic:

Do Baptists…or other Protestant denominations find it wrong to wear a crucifix? If so, do you know why?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

I am an ABA missionary baptist. I don’t think that it is “wrong”
to ware a crucifix, but I believe the reason most don’t is because the Victory of Jesus wasn’t the crucifixion, but the RESURECTION. Jesus is alive, and no longer on the cross. Just for my info why do catholics use a crucifix?

 

[mtr01]

HilaryJ:

I am an ABA missionary baptist. I don’t think that it is “wrong”
to ware a crucifix, but I believe the reason most don’t is because the Victory of Jesus wasn’t the crucifixion, but the RESURECTION. Jesus is alive, and no longer on the cross. Just for my info why do catholics use a crucifix?

I Cor 1:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: 24 But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[TNT]

HilaryJ:

I am an ABA missionary baptist. I don’t think that it is “wrong”
to ware a crucifix, but I believe the reason most don’t is because the Victory of Jesus wasn’t the crucifixion, but the RESURECTION. Jesus is alive, and no longer on the cross. Just for my info why do catholics use a crucifix?

We present the PAYMENT for that Victory, and the singular Person who paid it…Unmistakenly Christ. A blank cross does not convey this unique aspect of Christainity.
A blank cross could mean just about anything or nothing to a non-christian.
POST 19:

Even pagans and heathens wear “plain” crosses. That speaks to no one about anything.
Here is the reason to “preach the crucifix” over our heart:

1 Corinthians1:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
Since we cannot preach by voice to everyone who sees us, we use the Crucifix to do it.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

Thank you. I really appreaciate this Maggie, since Protestants are usually lumped together with all “Christian” non-Catholics.

Michael

I still say you are a closet Catholic who hasn’t come out yet You are fighting it tooth and nail We know you love us Michael God Bless

 

[mercygate]

HilaryJ:

I am an ABA missionary baptist. I don’t think that it is “wrong”
to ware a crucifix, but I believe the reason most don’t is because the Victory of Jesus wasn’t the crucifixion, but the RESURECTION. Jesus is alive, and no longer on the cross. Just for my info why do catholics use a crucifix?

Call me a broken record – but this whole cross/crucifix issue is painfully stupid. No Resurrection without the Crucifixion. Each image expresses an essential truth of our redemption. How hard is that? This is not something to squabble about.

 

[Kater30]

Curious:

Hm…I hadn’t heard that. But I have heard the statement that Jesus is no longer on the cross, that He is resurrected, and that is why it is better to wear an empty cross.

As a protestant, yes, this is correct. We don’t believe it is worshipping idols if someone where’s a crucifix. I think it would be very appropriate for all Christians to wear a crucifix especially now during lent. Although, ask some Christians of a Restoration perspective and they don’t even know what Lent is.

I get tired of people assuming what all protestants think by talking to one or two of them. Catholics get mad when someone tells lies about them worshipping idols or holding Mary above Jesus Christ. Think about that. Like I"ve said before, you’re never going to make a case for people to convert to Catholicism if you keep making people think that their love for Jesus is inadequate. Help them to expand on their love for Christ that they already have, and help them to see the value of the Catholic traditions. That’s my two cents. Sorry, kinda got off topic.