THe proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

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Stingray:
However, I was not implying that Darrel had personally attacked me. I was just saying that I hope we, everyone here, can have civil discussions.
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Fair enough. Point taken. I prefer civil discussions, myself, to the other kind.🙂
 
Here is what you originally said:

Ozzie said:
‘you…have no idea of what salvation is’
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Here was my response to your wording:
Ani Ibi:
The wording of this assertion, in my opinion, lacks etiquette and does not promote discussion which is what we are here to foster.
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I then suggested one of many alternative ways of getting your point across without accusing someone of having no idea of what salvation is:

Ani Ibi said:
‘your post, in my opinion, demonstrates an (inaccurate, incomplete, whatever) understanding of salvation’
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This was an example of a wording, not a statement in itself. Here is your response to my suggestion:
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Ozzie:
Actually, it’s a judgment based on the soteriological teachings of the Roman church and what Tim Hayes wrote (based on what he’s been taught by Rome) regarding Christ coming back to "judge us."
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Yes it is a judgment. It is a judgment of the person’s understanding of salvation rather than a judgment of what that person is saying about salvation.
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Ozzie:
Can you show me where Christ Himself taught your Marian doctrines?
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The error of the question begets the error of its response. I certainly could discuss Mary, but not on this thread. (What is the subject of this thread anyway?) And, to be truthful, there are other people on this board who could discuss Mary more cogently than I. But, in a pinch, yes I could participate. As for the question of whether I would limit my response to the parameters you have imposed on the question: No.
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Ozzie:
Where Christ or the Apostles taught your fully developed doctrine of “Purgatory?” Where any of the Apostles taught the idea of “Indulgences?”
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See my response re Mary supra.
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Ozzie:
Paul is very clear in his Epistles that true believers are, through personal faith in Christ, reconciled to God because “reconciliation” was one of the works Christ accomplished, forever and completely, on the cross
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And you give Biblical cites. Is there a connection in your mind between ‘reconciliation’ and Mary, Purgatory, and Indulgences? Yes, there is. Here it is:
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Ozzie:
Hence, your subsequently developed sacrament of “Penance/Reconciliation” has no Apostolic authority and is contrary to what Christ Himself accomplished on the cross 2000 years ago.
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What do you mean by ‘Apostolic’? What do you mean by ‘authority’?
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Ozzie:
we can clearly see that many of the teachings that developed later in “Christendom” truly are not 2000 years old (as your claim)
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Here was my claim:
Ani Ibi:
The personal aspect of Catholicism happens within the context of community, a community which goes back 2000 years
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I use the term ‘community.’ You use the term ‘teachings.’
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Ozzie:
The beauty and power of the N.T. Scriptures, which the Holy Spirit Himself inspired to be written, allows us to actually know what was taught from the beginning,
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Our knowledge, then, is a direct function of the beauty and power of the NT? What kind of knowledge? What kind of interpretive approach is brought to bear on the beauty and power? In whom is vested the authority (legitimate power) to interpret?
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Ozzie:
thereby we have the means to test the subsequent teachings and traditions of men.
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Who is we? What exactly are the means?
 
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Ozzie:
…True Christianity is not based on what men have believed, but on what God has revealed. This is what separates true Christianity, the true faith, from all others in this world.
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** OZZIE: STINGRAY:**
The trread is:
The proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

It is not about other threads’ subjects:
Confession
Purgatory
Indulgences
blah blah.
It is soooo predictable what prots do when the questions get toooo hard. “Chase these rabbits”.
**So, my questions are still waiting!
Am I next?
****(2nd request of 3 max)

**
 
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otm:
Yeah, but it is ok to drag out all the picutures of their children, or grandchildren, or their last beach trip… and of course that would never be worship…
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How about wearing a locket around your neck with pictures of your loved ones inside. (Not pictures of Jesus of course!) 🙂
 
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Stingray:
Quick question, whats CARM?

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Check out over at carm.org/index.html

I’m sorry, Stingray, but CARM is awful! I’ve read the garbage that Matt Slick posts as “Catholic Truth”! It is all lies and he tries to convince others that it’s truth thereby drawing people away from the truth. It’s a decietful place! He passes off other religions as false and anyone who doesn’t believe as he does is seeking Satan!

The non-Catholics on the Catholic boards have a virilent hatred of the Catholic faith. I have been on the boards to TRY to simply disspell the lies and misconceptions and been met with people calling me essentially, a liar and that what I believe is Satan in disguise and any number of other distasteful things. No matter how much fact, church fathers, scripture or history you post to show these people that their misconceptions are ill-founded, they will not see the truth and continue to spread the lies. That’s all the site is there for - to continue to spread the lies!

And this is from my personal experience. To others who are curious about the site - don’t bother - you will be wasting your time. At least here, we are civil to one another and we show a little more Christian love to others who come here to ask questions.
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And this is from my personal experience. To others who are curious about the site - don’t bother - you will be wasting your time. At least here, we are civil to one another and we show a little more Christian love to others who come here to ask questions.
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Thank You,

I was going to check it out when I had time but given your experience there I’ll stick to reality here.

-D
 
Ani Ibi:
Oops. Who said that? Even if somebody did say that, it’s not what we believe. So let’s put it to rest. You were doing well Stingray. Is your good faith slipping? I hope something disingenuous does not emerge from suddenly from your hitherto well-mannered posts.

Your statement above is disturbingly inaccurate and unfair.
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Once again. I have no idea what you are talking about. I made a simple statement. I didn’t preface my comment with “Despite what Catholics may believe…” You say my statement is inaccurate and unfair. How so? Why are you asking me if my good faith is slipping? Your comments have me completely puzzled.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
TNT said:
** OZZIE: STINGRAY:**
The trread is:

The proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

It is not about other threads’ subjects:
Confession
Purgatory
Indulgences
blah blah.
It is soooo predictable what prots do when the questions get toooo hard. “Chase these rabbits”.
So, my questions are still waiting!
Am I next?
(2nd request of 3 max)
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I don’t know why my name got dragged into this, but if you have a question for me I haven’t answered I am sorry. I’ve looked and don’t see it. Of course that wouldn’t mean anything because the way this board is set up has me completely confused. It takes me forever just to find one post I know I saw somewhere. Anyway, I am more than willing to answer your question whatever it is. Maybe you could repost it and I will be able to find it more easily.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
I don’t know why my name got dragged into this, but if you have a question for me I haven’t answered I am sorry. I’ve looked and don’t see it. Of course that wouldn’t mean anything because the way this board is set up has me completely confused. It takes me forever just to find one post I know I saw somewhere. Anyway, I am more than willing to answer your question whatever it is. Maybe you could repost it and I will be able to find it more easily.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
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FROM POST 127
The questions I have for our NEW church fathers (OZZIE and StingRay) come from these “Scriptures”:
Quote:
**2Thes 2:15. **
Code: 
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether** by word**, or by our epistle. 
**Matt 18:15-17. **
But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

** 1. WHERE is this WORD outside of the Epistle?
2. Exactly what CHURCH will I have take the offenses/ disagreements to and HEAR back from? Name the Church AND its location, please.
Finally:
3. If I tell you that HEBREWS is NOT part of your NT “Scriptures”, EXACTLY how do you prove to me, INFALLIBLY that it certainly is? Reference any place in your bible. Outside “church fathers” are fallible and OUTSIDE the bible, so no reference is possible for your reply to be INFALLIBLE.
**
 
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Pnewton:
But the scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, whereas no where does Scripture claim to be sola. So you do believe at least one huge, critical theological belief not found in the Bible, that of sola scriptura.
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1TIM. 3:15 “…but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

1. A little prepositional phrase in the above verse destroys your assertion: “the pillar and support OF the truth.” The “Church” is never described in the Scriptures as being the truth, but it is to be the supporter of it.

2. The Scriptures are revealed as being the divinely inspired, written Word of God. Hence, they intrinsically wield the authority of God Himself. Is this not true? Or do you deny this premise? From the beginning of man’s creation he was to obey God’s Word and not the words of mere creatures. How do you think this world got into the mess it’s in? The serpent challened Eve in the Garden saying, “Indeed, has God said…?” (Gen. 3:1). And God’s Word has been challenged ever since. His Word was spoken orally to Adam and Eve but we have it in writing, and in it is clearly *revealed *His plan of redemption through faith in Christ Jesus. Yet men, even within the Church, have continued to challenge what He’s revealed there regarding this glorious redemption.

The above verse does not imply that the Church/Body of Christ would itself be infallible. A cursory study of church history shatters that notion. In fact the Apostle Peter emphatically warns in Scripture:

2PET 2:1-3 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

Notice that these false teachers rise up within the Church. For this reason all men must embrace God’s immutable, written Word. We have no higher authority than the Scriptures. If a doctrine or tradition doesn’t conform to God’s written Word, it must be discarded. Rome needs to do some house cleaning, don’t you think?
 
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TNT:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether** by word**, or by our epistle.
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This was written in the Apostolic age. Paul was teaching orally amongst the Churches he was planting. But tell me, if there were oral “traditions” by Paul, Peter, John, and the others that were not covered in Scripture regading the faith, (1) tell me what they are. (2) Do you have a list of them? (3) Can you show me proof that they’re of Apostolic origin?

I have yet to see a list of these Apostolic, oral traditions, and the proof that they truly are Apostolic.
But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican
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This has to do with personal offenses, not doctrines. What’s your point?

If these men were in the church at Ephesus, then they were to take their complaint to the elders of that church. If in Corinth, then to the elders at Corinth. What’s the difficulty here?
 
TNT said:
FROM POST 127
The questions I have for our NEW church fathers (OZZIE and StingRay) come from these “Scriptures”:
Quote:
Code: 
                                             **2Thes 2:15. **
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether** by word**, or by our epistle.

**Matt 18:15-17. **

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

1. WHERE is this WORD outside of the Epistle?
2. Exactly what CHURCH will I have take the offenses/ disagreements to and HEAR back from? Name the Church AND its location, please.
Finally:
3. If I tell you that HEBREWS is NOT part of your NT “Scriptures”, EXACTLY how do you prove to me, INFALLIBLY that it certainly is? Reference any place in your bible. Outside “church fathers” are fallible and OUTSIDE the bible, so no reference is possible for your reply to be INFALLIBLE.
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  1. In the mouth of the apostles and the hearts and minds of the believers.
  2. To the body of believers to which you belong. I can’t tell you the name, in a particular sense, nor the location unless you provide me with that information.
  3. I can’t prove to you anything infallibly and I am not sure there would be any value in being able to if I could.
God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
Once again. I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Then you will understand how I felt when I read this:
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Stingray:
His canon of scripture does not derive it’s inspiration from the church’s ability to recognize it as such.
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What does this mean?

Anyway you didn’t answer my question which was:
Ani Ibi:
Who said that?
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So, once again: who said that his canon of scripture does not derive its inspiration from the church’s ability to recognize it as such?
 
Ozzie said:
1TIM. 3:15 “…but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

1. A little prepositional phrase in the above verse destroys your assertion: “the pillar and support OF the truth.” The “Church” is never described in the Scriptures as being the truth, but it is to be the supporter of it.

2. The Scriptures are revealed as being the divinely inspired, written Word of God. Hence, they intrinsically wield the authority of God Himself. Is this not true? Or do you deny this premise? From the beginning of man’s creation he was to obey God’s Word and not the words of mere creatures. How do you think this world got into the mess it’s in? The serpent challened Eve in the Garden saying, “Indeed, has God said…?” (Gen. 3:1). And God’s Word has been challenged ever since. His Word was spoken orally to Adam and Eve but we have it in writing, and in it is clearly *revealed *His plan of redemption through faith in Christ Jesus. Yet men, even within the Church, have continued to challenge what He’s revealed there regarding this glorious redemption.

The above verse does not imply that the Church/Body of Christ would itself be infallible. A cursory study of church history shatters that notion. In fact the Apostle Peter emphatically warns in Scripture:

2PET 2:1-3 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

Notice that these false teachers rise up within the Church. For this reason all men must embrace God’s immutable, written Word. We have no higher authority than the Scriptures. If a doctrine or tradition doesn’t conform to God’s written Word, it must be discarded. Rome needs to do some house cleaning, don’t you think?
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Word? Do you mean written word? spoken word? Logos? Oh, if you mean logos then that’s a whole other ball game.
 
Ani Ibi:
Then you will understand how I felt when I read this:

What does this mean?

Anyway you didn’t answer my question which was:

So, once again: who said that his canon of scripture does not derive its inspiration from the church’s ability to recognize it as such?
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Uhh…I…did…:confused: Is this a trick question?
 
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Ozzie:
I have yet to see a list of these Apostolic, oral traditions, and the proof that they truly are Apostolic.This has to do with personal offenses, not doctrines. What’s your point?
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A list of oral traditions? Presumably this list of oral traditions would be a written list since you point to the sense of sight; to wit, ‘see’? As opposed to the sense of hearing; to wit, ‘hear’? An oral tradition is heard, not seen.
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Ozzie:
If these men were in the church at Ephesus, then they were to take their complaint to the elders of that church. If in Corinth, then to the elders at Corinth. What’s the difficulty here?
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Ah, an equivocation. Note **the **church at Ephesus. Then the change to that church, attempting to argue for a different church located at Corinth. The church at Ephesus meant that part of the Church located at Ephesus. The church at Corinth meant that part of the Church located at Corinth. They were not different churches. They were the Church, the parts of which were located in different regions.
 
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