THe proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

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Stingray:
Uhh…I…did…:confused: Is this a trick question?
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No.
 
Ani Ibi:
No.
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I don’t get it. Why did you want to know who said it when it was clearly I who said it? Was there some point in that exercise? You asked what does it mean? Are you really unsure to it’s meaning? If so, I don’t mind explaining it to you. 🙂
 
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Ozzie:
This was written in the Apostolic age. Paul was** teaching orally** amongst the Churches he was planting…if there were oral “traditions” by Paul
** What’s your point**?
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  1. I was asking YOU what they were (and are). I DO know that he said we MUST hold fast to them, and that they are ORAL. NOT written down in an epistle. Unlike you I am willing to do that.
    You FAILED to answer the question. If you must hold fast to them, you do not do so EXPLICITLY because you reject all that IS NOT WRITTEN in your scripture books. Further, if you do not follow that command, you aren’t even accepting what IS written.
  2. .if there were oral “traditions” by Paul .???.. WHY the " " around traditions ? ( What does that mean. your scripture book doesn’t have them.)
    My my, now you make Paul a possible liar?
    If there were …implies that there may NOT have been, and Paul was at least a fabricator. IF he was a fabricator, he’s not inspired by the HS. NO ONE need listen to ANYTHING HE WRITES. 60% of your scripture books go down in doubt.
  3. And that IS the point…rejecting your own profession of belief.
If these men were in the church at Ephesus, then they were to take their complaint to the elders of that church. If in Corinth, then to the elders at Corinth. What’s the difficulty here?
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The difficulty is … no answer because:
I asked you a VERY simple and direct set of questions. Why do you not answer? Why waste a post? Just say you have no satisfactory answer.
On this matter again:
  1. What church will we take it to TODAY? Name and Location Please.
  2. What church must we LISTEN to TODAY? Name and Location Please.
I can get any prot to avoid direct answers. I was hoping you would be the exception. I guess not. But I’ll keep trying.

Finally,
Where is the INFALLIBLE proof that HEBREWS is a valid Inspired NT book…from your bible?

I’m feeling like a dentist here.
 
Sting,
There have been like 100 posts since we left off. I understand you are being bombarded so you might not have gotten the time. Are you still in on the talk with post #73 (Feb21 at 4pm)?
 
Ani Ibi:
It was clear to you, not to me.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

OK.
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I’m just curious, why was it unclear to you who said it?

It’s really simple. All I was saying is that the church’s recognition of the scriptures as being inspired is not what makes them inspired.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
Ozzie said:
This was written in the Apostolic age.
** DAH… Last I knew every single thing he wrote was “in the Apostolic age”.
** Matt 18…
This has to do with personal offenses, not doctrines.
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What bible do you read? I NEVER saw PERSONAL in that verse. I never saw where offending someone cannot involve doctrine. When was all that added?? Surely that’s not a “tradition of men” you be adding?
Why treat someone as a heathen or publican? …the worst treatment a Christian can apply, to a NON-doctrinal offense.
We’re talking about disfellowship at best and full blown excommunication (from a church no less). at worst. That’s an implicit if not explicit condemnation from salvation. BTW. The person has lost his “once saved…always saved” status.
 
Catholic Dude:
Sting,
There have been like 100 posts since we left off. I understand you are being bombarded so you might not have gotten the time. Are you still in on the talk with post #73 (Feb21 at 4pm)?
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I’m sorry CD. I initially overlooked it and just discovered it today. In fact, I’ve been trying for the past 30 minutes to post a new thread about something you wrote in it. I don’t know what’s up, but I’m having a lot of trouble posting. I promise you I will get to it tomorrow. It’s getting late and I have to get up early for work tomorrow morning. I hope you understand.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
All I was saying is that the church’s recognition of the scriptures as being inspired is not what makes them inspired.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
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True, but it is the Church’s recongnition of which writings were the inspired ones…The Catholic Church chose which books were to be in the bible and which ones were to be called gospels. The Bible wasn’t just handed down from heavan in a finished copy…it took a long time to figure out what books and writings to put in it.
 
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Stingray:
I’m sorry CD. I initially overlooked it and just discovered it today. In fact, I’ve been trying for the past 30 minutes to post a new thread about something you wrote in it. I don’t know what’s up, but I’m having a lot of trouble posting. I promise you I will get to it tomorrow. It’s getting late and I have to get up early for work tomorrow morning. I hope you understand.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
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THAT"S why I insisted on being independently wealthy. I don’t mind getting up early…but not for “work”.
Re: Posting
You probably already do some of this, but:
  1. Do a select-all + copy of your finished post 1st, just in case sh## happens.
  2. Always “preview” before “submitting” your post.
    This does all the preliminary “formatting” off the main database.
  3. Submit is the last step.
  4. If it takes more than 30 secs to progress, do a STOP. and try later…too busy comm. interrupted.
    With the parabolic growth of this forum, they may have to tweek beyond Bill Gates “visual basic”
    Sleep well.
 
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Stingray:
All I was saying is that the church’s recognition of the scriptures as being inspired is not what makes them inspired.
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TheGarg:
True, but it is the Church’s recongnition of which writings were the inspired ones.
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Whew. Finally! I had no idea what that first post (obviously a circular attribution) was about.
 
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TNT:
THAT"S why I insisted on being independently wealthy. I don’t mind getting up early…but not for “work”.
Re: Posting
You probably already do some of this, but:
  1. Do a select-all + copy of your finished post 1st, just in case sh## happens.
  2. Always “preview” before “submitting” your post.
    This does all the preliminary “formatting” off the main database.
  3. Submit is the last step.
  4. If it takes more than 30 secs to progress, do a STOP. and try later…too busy comm. interrupted.
    With the parabolic growth of this forum, they may have to tweek beyond Bill Gates “visual basic”
    Sleep well.
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I’ve been having a lot of trouble posting too. Every three posts or so, I get a database error screen. I have taken to bringing up the CA Home Screen and then clicking on Forums. Sometimes it works. Sometimes I just get another database error screen. Is it me or CA? I will follow your recommendations. Thank you. Nitey nite.
 
Just to add my two pence worth, again;) I would like to say that the reason I think that salvation is not guaranteed is because:
Originally posted by Stingray
The part I particularly disagree with is that an individual cannot have personal assurance of salvation. In my view, this appears to be in contradiction with the words of the apostle John when he says, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
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The usage of the term “may know” is what throws me. Works are the result rather than the cause of the salvation I agree, but can those who are deliberately disobedient still be saved? For example I am 25 years old and have committed myself to Christ. But in the future I may become, for example a homosexual. Now whilst I know that the Lord would forgive me this sin I would still need to acknowledge it, repent and turn away as I did when I first committed to Christ and endeavour to do so daily.

Failure to do so IMO would result in loss of salvation as I would have sinned knowingly and willingly against the Lord. There are many christians who think that in this situation I would lose my reward in Heaven while still attaining eternal life. I sincerely doubt this as homosexuality is a sin against the Lord which if not repented of would surely result in eternal damnation. Therefore Once Saved, Always Saved is not something I agree with although by faith alone through grace alone is
 
Ozzie said:
1TIM. 3:15 “…but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

1. A little prepositional phrase in the above verse destroys your assertion: “the pillar and support OF the truth.” The “Church” is never described in the Scriptures as being the truth, but it is to be the supporter of it.

2. The Scriptures are revealed as being the divinely inspired, written Word of God. Hence, they intrinsically wield the authority of God Himself. Is this not true?

We have no higher authority than the Scriptures. If a doctrine or tradition doesn’t conform to God’s written Word, it must be discarded.
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You know I actually do agree with much of this post. The Catholic Church is a church of Sacred Scripture. It is the “sola” part (not found in scripture, BTW) that we do not hold to. Nor do we hold to any doctrine that contradicts Scripture.

However, since the Church is the “pillar and support” of the truth (as in found in Sacred Scripture) is why we go to the Church, with its 2000 year history and millions of cumulative years of study, to see how the truth is understood, instead of standing alone to understand all that God has to say.

Do we hold to more than is found in Scripture? Absolutely! As do all Christians to some extent. For example, as already mentioned, the sinner’s prayer, critical to fundamentalist soteriology, is found no one in the Bible. Most who are saved do not pray this, but yet everyone is comfortable with the implication that it is prayed by those saved.

You want to know what the “Catholic silver bullets” are?

Bible alone (or even primacy) is no where taught in the Bible.

Faith alone is no where mentioned in the Bible (except in James) and Jesus taught a vastly different concept of salvation. Try doing a Bible study sometime on everything Jesus said about heaven and salvation.
 
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teresas1979:
Just to add my two pence worth, again;) I would like to say that the reason I think that salvation is not guaranteed is because:

The usage of the term “may know” is what throws me. Works are the result rather than the cause of the salvation I agree, but can those who are deliberately disobedient still be saved? For example I am 25 years old and have committed myself to Christ. But in the future I may become, for example a homosexual. Now whilst I know that the Lord would forgive me this sin I would still need to acknowledge it, repent and turn away as I did when I first committed to Christ and endeavour to do so daily.

Failure to do so IMO would result in loss of salvation as I would have sinned knowingly and willingly against the Lord. There are many christians who think that in this situation I would lose my reward in Heaven while still attaining eternal life. I sincerely doubt this as homosexuality is a sin against the Lord which if not repented of would surely result in eternal damnation. Therefore Once Saved, Always Saved is not something I agree with although by faith alone through grace alone is
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First of all salvation is not attained by committing oneself TO Jesus Christ. One is saved “by GRACE through FAITH” in the Person and work of Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-10). Only the “saved” can truly commit themselves to Christ. So this would beg the question, why would one born of the Spirit (regenerated), “committed to Christ,” ever choose to “become” homosexual? That’s what’s wrong with hypotheticals, they’re not realistic.

Your whole argument contends that salvation is only a *potential *(standard RC soteriology) determined at the end of one’s life, based on one’s behavior. This is anti-Biblical. "For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith (not avoidance of sin); it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

The truly saved by grace through faith know and understand their previous lost condition in Adam, that being dead in trespasses and sins. They also understand the consequence of sins, and the extreme divine measure it took to save them from that eternal consequence - the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of God the Son on the cross. They joyously know and live with the FACT that they have been competely pardoned of ALL sins because of this selfless sacrifice by the Son; and although acts of sin cannot “un-save” them, they do not take sin lightly in their lives, desiring to be pleasing to their Lord who *saved *them.

The truth is, no one will ever go to Hell because of sin. They go to Hell because they refused to BELIEVE in the Person and work of Jesus Christ who took ALL their sins upon Himself on the cross and died in their stead (please read Jn. 3:14-18; 2 Cor. 5:21).

"He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God (Rom. 4:25-5:2).
 
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dumspirospero:
From my upbringing and my conversation with Protestants…(I could be wrong), but they believe it is idoltry…or something like that, when it comes to wearing a Crucifix…They feel we are worshiping Idols by wearing a Crucifix.
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Their dislike of crucifixes also comes from the disbelief, from their high church protestant roots, that the mass is a sacrifice. The crucifix in the church gives a visual of what is happening.
 
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Coptic:
Do Baptists…or other Protestant denominations find it wrong to wear a crucifix? If so, do you know why?
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Unfortunately, they do find that wearing a crucifix is wrong. As a Catholic who left the church for the Baptist denomination and then returned, I was exposed to many of their anti-Catholic propaganda. Baptists believe that Christ is no longer on the cross since He rose again and to display a crucifix is somehow irreverent because it leaves Christ on the cross. The absence of Christ from the cross represents the risen Lord. While I was away from the Church and worshipping as a Baptist, I never truly understood this way of thinking. Was it Christ’s raising from the dead that saved us or his actual death? While the resurrection proved that Christ was God, it was his death on the cross that saved mankind and therefore, though a sad thing indeed, it is THAT act which we as Catholics choose to remember and honor.
 
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HilaryJ:
I am an ABA missionary baptist. I don’t think that it is “wrong”
to ware a crucifix, but I believe the reason most don’t is because the Victory of Jesus wasn’t the crucifixion, but the RESURECTION. Jesus is alive, and no longer on the cross. Just for my info why do catholics use a crucifix?
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It is a reminder of the ultimate sacrifice that God made on our behalf. It serves to remind us of the price paid for our salvation. It witnesses to those who come in contact with us that God’s Son died (and paid for their sins) for their sake as well. It maintains focus on how it is mankind can come before God. The resurrection, though great, is not what saves man but rather the sacrifice made by Christ on the cross. By wearing a crucifix rather than an empty cross, we, as Catholics, are not denying the resurrection or attempting to take anything away from God’s power over death. Rather, we are honoring the sacrifice that God made for humanity.
 
In post #61, Stigray wrote:
I mean that we have been saved for good works rather than
as a result of them. We do good works as a result of being
saved and not in order to be saved. As mentioned earlier,
the scriptures (Eph 2:8-10) state that we are saved by
grace though faith and we have been created in Christ Jesus
for good works.
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My response to this center on two points:
  1. What does one do to demonstrate to God that we seek
    him with a humble and sincere heart?
  2. How do you reconcile your statement with free will?
Let’s assume what you wrote is true - “We have been saved for
good works rather than as a result of them”. I agree with this
up to a point. We are not save by works per se, we are saved
by grace that is a gift from God. But we have to be worthy of the
gift. This is where works come in. Works demonstrate to God
that we are worthy of the gift of grace because we are acting
in a Christ-like fashion. Saying or believing “I seek Him” or
“I’m worthy” is simply not enough.

Also, what you wrote is flawed in a time perspective and here’s
how: Let’s again assume what you wrote is true - “We have been
saved for good works rather than as a result of them”. To me,
this view is backwards.

You imply that we do good works as a result of being saved. But
this doesn’t mesh with having a free will. True, we must exercise
the will and choose to be saved while we are alive on earth.
But after a person chooses to be saved, their free will is not
inactivated. They are still very capable of abusing their free
will and choosing to sin while still on earth. This is also how
someone can “choose to be saved” early in their life and still
end up in hell after they die.

In order for a person to receive the grace from God (and
thus be saved after they die), the individaul while alive
on earth must
  1. Choose to do good works (exercise the will)
  2. Actually do the good (the works)
  3. Ask to be made worthy of the promises of Christ
    (seek God with a humble and sincere heart)
The good works demonstrate our humility and sincere heart -
just as Christ’s works demonstrated his humility and
sincere heart.

God bless you,

Jeff
 
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Ozzie:
So you reject salvation by grace through faith alone. I was approached by a guy at work who told me essentially the same thing as that pamphlet. I did turn from my *unbelief *and personally put my trust in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. My life has never been the same since!!! I know my Lord and He knows me. I know without a doubt (in fact the moment I turned to Him by faith) that ALL my sins (past, present and future) were put upon Him 2000 years ago, and to this day I do not trust in my own worthiness but I rest in His righteousness which was imputed to me at the time of faith.

What do I think? I think you should read again the pamphlet and do exactly what it requests. Try coming to Christ empty handed, by faith alone, and then, and only then, will you understand those people who were not ashamed to share the Gospel with you (Rom. 2:16-17).
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This thinking is flawed. If true, a child of 10 who was sincerely “saved” could grow up believing that his/her actions have no consequences. Thus, they can justify immoral decisions they make in life by saying simply that my sins were/are forgiven and I don’t have to worry about any consequences. It’s NOT by faith alone as James 2:24 points out. Look also at James 2:26. Maybe you would rather look to another book in the Bible. How about Gal 5:6 or 1 Cor 13:2? Still not good enough? Look to the gospels then like Mat 19:16-17 or John 14:15. Faith is without a doubt important. However, what we do and how we use our faith is likewise important.
 
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