THe proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

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teresas1979:
Like it or not this is essentially true even from a Catholic perspective. Luther wished to reform the Church, not split it up.
Luther wanted himself. This desire was the compulsive fruit of a brutally violent childhood. The only use he had for the Church was as an adjunct to his own impaired drive to escape pain and evil. When his own methods failed, he blamed the nearest authority figure which was the Church. He blamed her, cut Her loose, and demonized Her.

At Wittenberg, he was beset by the pain of burnout resulting from a combination of too much work (external stress) and too much scrupulosity (internal stress). Coupled with burn out were the torments of the original post traumatic stress disorder re-emerging in response to the horrors of the Plague.

Rather than examining his own disordered perception of self-actualization and rather than turning to the Church for advice and solace, he chose his own means, his own solace, and his own standards. This decision gained momentum in the form of obsessions and as compulsions which quickly interfered with his ability to do his work.

He was setting himself up to succeed at failing. By failing, he got to punish himself (at least )as severely as he had been punished as a child and thus prove to himself that he was the authority figure, he was the strong one, he was the one in control. I find it difficult to believe that his prolongued fasting, harrowing mortifications, and sleep deprivation could not have affected his sanity.

Eventually this had to come to a head and rather than question the soundness of his thinking and of his decisions and of his actions, he lashed out, projecting all hurt, all damage, all shortcoming, all disappointment onto the authority figure nearest at hand which was the Church.

Luther was a man in conflict. He cannot cast off the mantel of accountability for his part in the polarization which ensued, a polarization which occurred in a time fraught not only with corruption but with rebellion, self-interest, and instability. His part included the inflammatory and vitriolic rhetorical language with which he prosecuted his views. His part included contradicting himself on a regular basis and reneguing on what he agreed to do:

Mar 03, 1519, to Pope Leo X: “Before God and all his creatures, I bear testimony that I neither did desire, nor do desire to touch or by intrigue to undermine the authority of the Roman Church and that of your holiness.”

Mar 13, 1519, to Spalatin: “I am at a loss to know whether the pope be antichrist or his apostle.”

One day he promises to observe silence if his assailants did the same; to give complete submission to the pope; to publish a plain statement to the public advocating loyalty to the Church; and to place the whole vexatious case in the hands of a delegated bishop. The next day he ridicules and disregards the whole gesture.

At the Leipzig disputation, Luther set himself up to succeed at failing again. Luther, ever quick to explode, felt humiliated by Eck’s placid methodology concerning papal supremacy. It was after this, that Luther seemed to throw caution to the wind. He seemed not to care about the collateral damage which would most assuredly result from his obsession with restoring himself to potency in his own eyes and on his own terms. His subsequent association with Ulrich von Hutton and Franz von Sickengen fanned the flames of political rebellion.

His ideas for reform were one thing. His unsound and harmful methodology were quite a different thing. He could not be reasoned with. He knew no temperance. He could not be restrained. There was no middle ground for him. It was his way or the highway. But most sinister of all was the demonstrable fact that he could not be trusted.
 
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Stingray:
The one (The Chief) shepherd is Jesus Christ. He has appointed several shepherds under himself through the Holy Spirit. The one faith is in Jesus Christ. Despite division, Christ remains the Cheif Shepherd and He is the one faith.

I disagree. We are one in Christ.

God bless,
Stingray:)
Your definition is pretty bare bones. “In Christ.” Those who claim that, and are therefore Christians, are the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and in the past, the Rev. Jim Jones and company, God rest their souls.

All these groups were by their own definition “in Christ.”
 
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pnewton:
Your definition is pretty bare bones. “In Christ.” Those who claim that, and are therefore Christians, are the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and in the past, the Rev. Jim Jones and company, God rest their souls.

All these groups were by their own definition “in Christ.”
That’s a shift in argument. I wasn’t arguing that a claim to be one in Christ necessarily makes one a Christian. I was arguing that Christians are one in Christ. In other words, they are united by their faith in Him and by their relationship to Him. Perhaps you want to know how we determine who is and who is not a Christian. Or, perhaps you already have an answer. Either way, that is not what we were discussing.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
The one (The Chief) shepherd is Jesus Christ. He has appointed several shepherds under himself through the Holy Spirit. The one faith is in Jesus Christ. Despite division, Christ remains the Cheif Shepherd and He is the one faith.

I disagree. We are one in Christ.

God bless,
Stingray:)
Regardless SR, What do you do when you are confronted by the passage of the NT Where Jesus says (Matthew 16:18-19)18 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Note Jesus uses the singular noun there…not plural… (Churches).

“Despite division” you say? How then do you answer St.Paul’s words here in 1st Corinthians 1:10-13 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? "
The separation of the “reformers” and “protestants” that departed from among us have clearly violated the NT scriptures and are indeed out from under the spiritual “head” or “covering” that was ordained by God in the Gospels. There is no justification whatsoever for it, regardless of what they found that needed reforming…the Body of Chris, His one true church, did not need to be “deformed” (my term…schismed, if you will). It needed to be RECONCILED, just a sthe NT teaches.

The non-Catholic “silver bullet” is nothing more than the instrument which the devil has used to gleefully take pot shots at Christianity for the last 487 years, and then to blow them around before every wind of doctrine ever since.
 
Church Militant:
Regardless SR, What do you do when you are confronted by the passage of the NT Where Jesus says (Matthew 16:18-19)18 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Note Jesus uses the singular noun there…not plural… (Churches).

“Despite division” you say? How then do you answer St.Paul’s words here in 1st Corinthians 1:10-13 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? "
The separation of the “reformers” and “protestants” that departed from among us have clearly violated the NT scriptures and are indeed out from under the spiritual “head” or “covering” that was ordained by God in the Gospels. There is no justification whatsoever for it, regardless of what they found that needed reforming…the Body of Chris, His one true church, did not need to be “deformed” (my term…schismed, if you will). It needed to be RECONCILED, just a sthe NT teaches.

The non-Catholic “silver bullet” is nothing more than the instrument which the devil has used to gleefully take pot shots at Christianity for the last 487 years, and then to blow them around before every wind of doctrine ever since.
Regardless CM, the church is one in Christ as I’ve maintained all along. The verses you quote prove as much. Despite division in the Corinthian church, Paul reminds them that they are one in Christ.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
Regardless CM, the church is one in Christ as I’ve maintained all along. The verses you quote prove as much. Despite division in the Corinthian church, Paul reminds them that they are one in Christ.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
Your opinion…
 
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JeffreyGerard:
In post #61, Stigray wrote:

My response to this center on two points:
  1. What does one do to demonstrate to God that we seek
    him with a humble and sincere heart?
Have faith
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JeffreyGerard:
  1. How do you reconcile your statement with free will?
I don’t see where any reconciliation is needed.
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JeffreyGerard:
Let’s assume what you wrote is true - “We have been saved for
good works rather than as a result of them”. I agree with this
up to a point. We are not save by works per se, we are saved
by grace that is a gift from God. But we have to be worthy of the
gift.
I totally disagree. No one is worthy. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Grace is unmerited favor.
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JeffreyGerard:
This is where works come in. Works demonstrate to God that we are worthy of the gift of grace because we are actingin a Christ-like fashion. Saying or believing “I seek Him” or “I’m worthy” is simply not enough.
As I said, no one is worthy. After all, that’s why it’s called grace.
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JeffreyGerard:
Also, what you wrote is flawed in a time perspective and here’s
how: Let’s again assume what you wrote is true - “We have been
saved for good works rather than as a result of them”. To me,
this view is backwards.
You know, not to be rude, but it really doesn’t matter. That is the record of scripture. Saved by grace, through faith, for good works. I didn’t write it. If you don’t like it, perhaps that should tell you something.
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JeffreyGerard:
You imply that we do good works as a result of being saved.
Once again, see above.
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JeffreyGerard:
But this doesn’t mesh with having a free will. True, we must exercisethe will and choose to be saved while we are alive on earth.But after a person chooses to be saved, their free will is notinactivated. They are still very capable of abusing their freewill and choosing to sin while still on earth. This is also howsomeone can “choose to be saved” early in their life and still
end up in hell after they die.
I have to disagree again. People don’t “choose to be saved.” God chooses who will be saved.
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JeffreyGerard:
In order for a person to receive the grace from God (and
thus be saved after they die), the individaul while alive
on earth must
  1. Choose to do good works (exercise the will)
  2. Actually do the good (the works)
  3. Ask to be made worthy of the promises of Christ
    (seek God with a humble and sincere heart)
The good works demonstrate our humility and sincere heart -
just as Christ’s works demonstrated his humility and
sincere heart.
Well, I couldn’t disagree more. Grace is not conditional. Grace is something that cannot be earned. Otherwise, it just isn’t grace. Finally, good works do nothing toward salvation. Salvation is either all of grace, as the scriptures clearly say it is, or it is of nothing. There is no getting around the clear truth of God’s word. We are saved by grace…not by works.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
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Stingray:
I disagree. God led His church to recognize His word. That in no way suggests the church is infallible anymore than it would suggest you are infallible since God has led you to His truth, Jesus Christ. God is the one who is infallible and not men. Why glorify the instrument through which God carries out a task? Give the glory to God alone. God does not require an infallible church in order to keep His promise of protection.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
Were the apostles men?? Good, then your declaration makes them fallible. That means that what they wrote was fallible since it came from fallible minds of men. That means your scriptures are fallible. That means you can’t take them as infallible. That means your version of christianity is fallible.
I would not follow a group that is fallible in its SOLA Scriptures.

Now, this is the 3rd and LAST time I’ll ask.
Matt 18:
Your church is XXXX church on AAA street.
My church is the Catholic Church.
We have a vigorous and important disagreement involving a belief in essential INTERPRETATION in these scriptures.
**WHAT CHURCH DO WE TAKE IT TO?
WHAT CHURCH ARE WE TO HEAR lest we be cast out?
OZZIE BLEW SMOKE ON THIS. I’ll assume he’s got no clue, since he faked it
YOU DANCED AROUND IT.
LAST CHANCE FOR AN ANSWER.
Give it your BEST shot. So we ALL can understand it without the nebuli.
BTW:
If you don’t have a clue, then that’s an answer I’ll accept, as being honest.
Finally:
**teresas1979 is invited to cover for ya.
 
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Stingray:
Have faith

I don’t see where any reconciliation is needed.

I totally disagree. No one is worthy. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Grace is unmerited favor.

As I said, no one is worthy. After all, that’s why it’s called grace.

You know, not to be rude, but it really doesn’t matter. That is the record of scripture. Saved by grace, through faith, for good works. I didn’t write it. If you don’t like it, perhaps that should tell you something.

Once again, see above.

I have to disagree again. People don’t “choose to be saved.” God chooses who will be saved.

Well, I couldn’t disagree more. Grace is not conditional. Grace is something that cannot be earned. Otherwise, it just isn’t grace. Finally, good works do nothing toward salvation. Salvation is either all of grace, as the scriptures clearly say it is, or it is of nothing. There is no getting around the clear truth of God’s word. We are saved by grace…not by works.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
Something you said strikes me as strange,God Chooses who will be saved,yes He is the judge,but when you say people do not choose to be saved I do not understand what you are saying:confused: God’s grace is freely given,correct?If you refuse God’s grace you are choosing not to be saved,you are choosing against God.If our cooperation in God’s grace is not neccesary then why is it important to evangelise?Why worship God?What is the point?Do you believe that God predestines people to hell?I am trying to figure out where you are going with this:confused:
 
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TNT:
Were the apostles men?? Good, then your declaration makes them fallible. That means that what they wrote was fallible since it came from fallible minds of men. That means your scriptures are fallible. That means you can’t take them as infallible. That means your version of christianity is fallible.
I would not follow a group that is fallible in its SOLA Scriptures.
God leads the church. Does that mean the church is infallible or that God is infallible? Pleas pick one. The Holy Spirit (God) led the writers of scripture. Does that mean the writers of scripture are infallible or that God is infallible? Please pick one.
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TNT:
Now, this is the 3rd and LAST time I’ll ask.
Matt 18:
Your church is XXXX church on AAA street.
My church is the Catholic Church.
We have a vigorous and important disagreement involving a belief in essential INTERPRETATION in these scriptures.
WHAT CHURCH DO WE TAKE IT TO?
WHAT CHURCH ARE WE TO HEAR lest we be cast out?

**OZZIE BLEW SMOKE ON THIS. I’ll assume he’s got no clue, since he faked it **

Actually, he was quite right in pointing out to you that the passage is about one brother sinning against another rather than about doctrinal disputes.

TNT said:
YOU DANCED AROUND IT.

LAST CHANCE FOR AN ANSWER.
Give it your BEST shot. So we ALL can understand it without the nebuli.


**Very simple. Your place or mine. It matters not to me. We will take it to the church and the one who refuses to hear will be cast out. **

BTW:
****If you don’t have a clue, then that’s an answer I’ll accept, as being honest.

TNT,

I say this out of love and in all sincerity. I am concerned for you. You just come on way too strong. Do you honestly believe that you are demonstrating the love of Christ in this manner? There’s nothing wrong with kidding around with each other or even being stern with one another, but we should also show love and respect. I know you might not like hearing this from me, but you should really take a look at how you’ve behaved here on these boards and really ask yourself if you think you are bringing honor to Christ.

God bless,
Stingray 🙂
 
Brother Stingray,

Thank you for responding. I have more questions if
you will indulge me.

You wrote,
People don’t “choose to be saved.” God chooses who will be saved.
So help me understand better. Is everyone saved?

If yes and no one goes to hell, then why did God
create us and place us here on Earth with the free
will to choose between good and evil? And since
we’re all saved, do “good” and “evil” exist?
Are we totally free to do whatever we want?
Is there hell?

If no, then God also chooses (by omission) who will
not be saved and will go to hell? If God has willed
me to go to hell, will faith keep me out of hell?
That hardy seems like the actions of a just God.

So really, who has the choice? I think God wants all of his
children with him (Brother Stingray and Jeff included).
But I think we still have to do something – read on.
“We have been saved for good works rather than as a result of them”
That is the record of scripture. Saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

First, with all due respect, you mis-quoted yourself and Scripture.
This is unbecoming of a minister.

Second, I think you are trying to quote Eph 2:8 which states:
For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
I will not try to interpret scripture as I don’t have
access to the 2000+ years of continuous study of Tradition
and drawing meaning out of the Scripture. Just because an
interpretation pops into my beady little head doesn’t
make it so. I’ll defer to a portion of Magisterium:

From catholic.com/library/pillar.asp:
Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can
be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away
the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal)
sin.
So faith is a gift from God, and grace is a gift from God.
Salvation is a gift from God. We must choose to accept them.

Isn’t choosing to accept a gift an action?

In the same web page, the have a bunch more stuff about the
“w” word.

God Bless you,

Jeff
 
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teresas1979:
Like it or not this is essentially true even from a Catholic perspective. Luther wished to reform the Church, not split it up. And instead of having his and other reformers views considered, they were just shot down. Trent then issued anathemas against even the smallest hint of dissent against Catholic authority.

Now the way I see it is that the reformers should at least have been able to discuss their objections to certain aspects of the faith. If Catholicism is 100% right, why such fear of the reformers? Why not simply refute their claims instead of denying their voice? Their voice carried anyway and the Council of Trent existed purely to stop it in its tracks.

If they had used techniques similar to ones I see modern Catholics use, they may have agreed their differences and the split may not have happened. The Council of Trent ensured they could not be reconciled which is a shame as Luther disagreed with very little compared to many non Catholic christians today.
What Rubbish I would say ****!,
Luther 😦 could have worked within the Church to heal his grievances, but no, the lack of humility in the man led him out to disobey the established Church. He is widely known as having repented on his death bed, as he did not intend to set up an adversary organisation (not Church).
Look to St Francis of Assisi, one of the biggest reformers of the RC Church and he did it all in total humility and obedience to the Magistreium.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church continues to reform itself continually by the power of the Holy Spirit, the appearences of our Lady, and by words from Saintly persons. The Church is not dead wood, it’s branches are green and continue to grow like the best grape vine.
God Bless and Mary protect you all
Br CreosMary
 
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Stingray:
I wasn’t arguing that a claim to be one in Christ necessarily makes one a Christian. I was arguing that Christians are one in Christ. In other words, they are united by their faith in Him and by their relationship to Him. Perhaps you want to know how we determine who is and who is not a Christian.
Then we agree on one thing. That all those who have placed their faith in Jesus are unified in that we all have placed our faith in Jesus.

Do you see any further unity of the faith and if so, what might that be?

When we Catholics speak of one faith, we mean more than just the above, so we need to be aware of the difference in language. The faith focuses on the object of our belief not just the fact of it. Sure, we believe in Jesus (as do the demons) but beyond that, what so we believe about Him. Divinve? Human? What about God? How does salvation come about? These are all basic questions of the faith ( in a Catholic sense).

Sorry. I did not mean to shift focus.
 
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Mickey:
I don’t see in any of these pasted verses anything about being saved by faith alone?
Every single verse was about faith alone. In the John 3:14-15 passage Jesus compares Himself with the bronze serpent that was lifted up in the wilderness, and all who were bitten by serpents and looked up (by faith according to God’s Word) did not die (Num. 21). In the same manner, this side of the cross, all who are bitten by sin (and that includes everyone, excludes no one) who looks, by faith, to Jesus Christ, who bore their sins on the cross, HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

JOH 3:14 -17 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This is the gospel message in a nutshell. It really is that simple. It’s not shallow, there is great depth involved (infinite infact), but God in all His glorious wisdom has made salvation, through faith in His beloved Son alone, quite simple. One does not honor Him, nor Christ Jesus by making it complex or adding man-made conditions to it.
We are saved through grace.
*EPH 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; *not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

As you can see by the above passage, the Apostle Paul clearly follows though with the same “faith” gospel message. We are not saved “through grace” as you say, but by *“by grace, through faith.” * When a sinner hears the message of the cross of Christ and by faith receives the truth of that Divine mesage, by God’s unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor (Divine Grace) he is saved. That’s the whole purpose of the cross. That’s why the Son was lifted up like the bronze serpent in the wilderness.
Our good works are the fruit of our faith.
Not according to Paul. Read the last part of the above verse. The true believer is now “created in Christ Jesus” (see 2 Cor. 5:17). And it’s his being newly created in Christ that naturally produces the good works. That’s why Jesus said “you shall know them by their fruits.” Good works are a natural product of one having been created in Christ Jesus.

MAT 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?

According to God’s Word, works have nothing to do with the process of getting saved, but everything to do with those who* are saved*. Those who are now “in Christ.” James actually states the very same thing when he says, “SHOW ME your faith without works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works” (Ja. 2:18). This is the premise of James’ argument. He does not conclude faith plus works to be justified. But that the truly justified naturally produce works - like Abraham and Rahab.
 
This is interesting. Check this out…
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea3.asp
Church Militant:
A touching testimony…here’s mine:
Hi,

I would like to offer you my own personal testimony so you can see where I’m comin’ from and WHY I returned to Catholicism.

I am a cradle Catholic and a “revert” to the faith after being gone for about 34 years. I had left the Church at about age 17 because I was on drugs and then “got saved” at a Campus Life Bible study that was run by a very cool minister. I had always gone to church but never really taken it seriously or read the Bible, even though it was in the house and other members of my family read it. The lack was not in the church (I see that now) but within me. I began to read the Bible for the first time in my life…(the epistle of St. James) and it really hit home. I have always believed in God, but I saw that that was not enough. I did alright for a couple of years, got married and we moved here to Florida, where I stayed out of establishment churches because I figured they were all messed up and did my thing as a “Jesus freak”, witnessing on the streets and handing out Christian underground papers and tracts, and talking to anyone who would listen.

Eventually I and my little family joined a Baptist church because the preacher convinced me that we believed the same things and he liked my no fear witnessing. That was fine until I admitted that I figured that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last apostle. That ended my path to being a Baptist minister so we joined a local Assembly of God where we stayed for many years in spite of some really unscriptural and uncharitable things they did. I became a deacon there, but finally we left after they pulled some really lame stuff and blew me off when I pointed out that what they were doing was unscriptural. My letter telling them why we were leaving was 10 pages long.

I intended to find another church, but we never did and so we remained out of any church for many years.

About 5 years ago I hit a real crisis and decided to turn back to the Lord. I found that Jesus meant every word of the parable of the prodigal son. I began to read the Bible again and got a New American Bible which is about like the NIV except this one has all the books (which I liked even though at the time I was still a Protestant). This particular edition was fairly big, with a bright green paperback cover that said “The Catholic Bible” in big orange letters. I went diddy-bopping into a meeting one day with that in hand and wasn’t in there a hot minute when some guy jumped my case.

“Are you Catholic?’ he asked me. “Well…yeah”, says I, (since technically I was). “You Catholics worship Mary.” “Say what?” I responded. “You Catholics worship Mary. You pray to her.” “Look, I know I I been outta the church for a long time, and we do pray to her but we DON”T worship her and no Catholic that knows his ear from his elbow would ever even SAY such a crazy thing. We worship God alone. End of story, Dude.”

He persisted so severely that I finally told him that I’d get some books, check it out and get back to him with what I found out, and that if he was right then I would never enter a Catholic Church ever again.
 
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Ozzie:
Every single verse was about faith alone. In the John 3:14-15 passage Jesus compares Himself with the bronze serpent that was lifted up in the wilderness, and all who were bitten by serpents and looked up (by faith according to God’s Word) did not die (Num. 21). In the same manner, this side of the cross, all who are bitten by sin (and that includes everyone, excludes no one) who looks, by faith, to Jesus Christ, who bore their sins on the cross, HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

JOH 3:14 -17 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This is the gospel message in a nutshell. It really is that simple. It’s not shallow, there is great depth involved (infinite infact), but God in all His glorious wisdom has made salvation, through faith in His beloved Son alone, quite simple. One does not honor Him, nor Christ Jesus by making it complex or adding man-made conditions to it.EPH 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

As you can see by the above passage, the Apostle Paul clearly follows though with the same “faith” gospel message. We are not saved “through grace” as you say, but by "by grace, through faith." When a sinner hears the message of the cross of Christ and by faith receives the truth of that Divine mesage, by God’s unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor (Divine Grace) he is saved. That’s the whole purpose of the cross. That’s why the Son was lifted up like the bronze serpent in the wilderness.Not according to Paul. Read the last part of the above verse. The true believer is now “created in Christ Jesus” (see 2 Cor. 5:17). And it’s his being newly created in Christ that naturally produces the good works. That’s why Jesus said “you shall know them by their fruits.” Good works are a natural product of one having been created in Christ Jesus.

MAT 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?

According to God’s Word, works have nothing to do with the process of getting saved, but everything to do with those who* are saved*. Those who are now “in Christ.” James actually states the very same thing when he says, “SHOW ME your faith without works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works” (Ja. 2:18). This is the premise of James’ argument. He does not conclude faith plus works to be justified. But that the truly justified naturally produce works - like Abraham and Rahab.
Thank you for the correction Ozzie. (We are saved **by Grace **through faith) and our good works are the fruit of that Faith. Please don’t put words in my mouth Ozzie, that is not charitable. I believe we are saying the same thing. Good works are the fruit of our faith in Christ. Grace, Faith and works are interwined. It is by Grace that we have been saved through Faith. Notice it does not say “you are saved by Faith alone.” (I think Martin Luther tried to insert that word as he tried to toss out the book of James). Or maybe you can show me? Since you are familiar with the book of James you should read it again. In fact you even said: “The truly justified naturally produce works”. And may I add a few more.

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matt 24:13

And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.Phil 1:6

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12

Hopes that helps you Ozzie. God Bless.
 
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Stingray:
As opposed to yours.😉

God bless,
Stingray:)
Naw…as opposed to the original Christians and their 2,000 years old offspring…the Catholic Church. 😃
 
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Ozzie:
It wasn’t a misquote. You’re using another translation than I. You might want to do a Greek word study. He led me to Himself: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:6). The Truth is a Person and I have, by faith, come to Him, and have found rest.

May you do the same one day.
I have! I follow Jesus Christ and the Church which Jesus founded and has led with the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

May the Holy Spirit one day lead you into communion with Christ and His Church.
 
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