THe proverbial Protestant "Silver Bullet"

[pnewton]

Ozzie:

I pray that one day you might come to understand (by faith) what the cross of Christ means, what Christ actually accomplished there for you 2000 years ago; and because of the cross the power God has to save you forever. But this cannot happen until you come to the cross empty handed.

But I do. Might I suggest if you are going to continue to try logical debate with Catholics you understand the concept of begging the question. You sure do this a lot.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Church Militant:

The only objection that I have ever heard to the crucifix is that they wonder if we deny the resurrection, since they say that the cross is empty because of it.

I usually (and easily) point out that all Catholics firmly believe in the Resurrection and that the reason that I love my crucifix is that every time I look at it I am reminded of the terrible price that Our Lord paid for my sins and that inspires me not to want to add any more sins to that price.

I have heard this same explanation when I was in High school. Some of my classmates told me that Catholics don’t belive in the resurrection, that we think Jesus has not resurrected yet, they had a whole explanation along with this. that I dont remember, but no matter how hard I tried to explain they refused to believe me.

Recently a Nondenomonational friend of mine had rumors going around her church that Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” did not show the resurrection and many were refusing to see it because of this, until some went and were amazed that a Catholic would portray the resurrection in his movie. It is totally sad, the awful misconceptions people have about the Catholic Church.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ozzie:

Your analogy is non-sequitur to the discussion.

What does non sequitur mean?

Ozzie:

Jesus was not saving the man but healing the man.

How do you think the man got healed if he were not saved first?

Ozzie:

According to Scripture (God’s Word) Christ Himself did ALL the work needed (on the cross) to procure our salvation.

The Word of God is Jesus, not Scripture. You’re just pretending we haven’t explained salvation to you before. As for doing all the work, you’re just pretending we haven’t explained to you the different kinds of sin before. * Ad nauseum*. Whoops! There’s that pesky Latin again!

Ozzie:

You mean the “sacrament of Reconciliation?” That sacrament is Roman, rooted in unbelief, not Biblical.

Sigh. Somebody tell me the explanation of the Sacraments has already been given.

Ozzie:

Actually, you’re following Rome’s rules.

This is abusive, Ozzie. You’re crossing the line. You’ve been spoken to before about this. Yet your persist. Knock it off.

Ozzie:

Rather than following any man’s* rules*, you’d be eternally better off by *believing *God’s immutable, written Word concerning salvation and His Son.

Which Bible? Which translation? Whose interpretation?

Ozzie:

I pray that one day you might come to understand (by faith) what the cross of Christ means, what Christ actually accomplished there for you 2000 years ago;

Wow, Ozzie. That’s pretty condescending.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Imagine a child’s healthy, loving relationship with his or her father. Daddy is strong and loving can fix all the toys, wipe all the tears, help heal skinned knees with neosporin and band aids. Daddy works hard to pay for food, shelter, and patiently disciplines the child with positive loving discipline. Daddy will do anything for his child, a truly loving father would give his life to save his child. What does the father want in return? The father wants the child to be happy, to learn to make good chioices and to learn to love in return. Does the father expect the child to repay him, NO. Does child need to earn the father’s love, NO, the father loves the child simply because the child is his baby. The father takes great joy in watching his child do wonderful things, playing and enjoying the good things in life, sharing and giving to others. Does a father’s love ever end, even if the child grows up to make bad chioces and ends up in prison, or on drugs… NO, the father may be saddened and disappointed. What if the child rejects the father? Daddy only wants his child back.

Being a good father takes parenting. A child can’t grow without the loving interaction between his or her father. The father teaches the child to do good deeds, to show love to others. What if the child is not mentally or physically capable of this? The perfect father loves him unwaiveringly, eternally. NoW imagine that the child has amazing gifts and talents, but tells the father, I have faith in you, that you will take care of me, but I dont’ need to do anything to earn it and so I dont’ need to do anything at all. The relationship would be stunted, and the child woudl never blossom into maturity.

You see, we are human beings, we cannot separate love from actions. To say that we are saved by faith alone forgets the fact that we are human and learn from experience. Our faith grows and matures with our good works, just like our relationships with our earthly fathers grows and matures as we grow with age and maturity. this is why St. Paul said 'faith without works is dead." because without works faith is not put into action, it does not grow and mature, it is “dead”

Imagine if a husband marries his wife and says “I love you, I have faith in you, that you will take care of me…” but then the husband never does anything to show his wife that he loves her, he never uses his physical abilities to interact with her. their relationship would be stunted at the word’s “I love you” but would have a tough time maturing past that point.

Faith without works is dead because faith is our relationship with God, and a relationship takes our entire being to flourish, not only our rational minds, but our hearts and hands as well.

Faith is not sterile and cannot be separated from works. The two are not in contrast with one another. We belive that we cannot earn salvation, but that God wants our relationship with Him to be alive, and to continue to grow and mature.

A mother is making sugar cookies. Her 3 yr old daughter wants to help, to share time with her, to learn how to make cookies. Does the mommy need the child to help, her? NO, she has made cookies thousands of times, But the child looks up, wide eyes, amazed at how wonderfully mommy makes cookies, So the mommy puts a step stool up to the counter and lovingly teaches teh little girl how to make cookies, so that they can be closer and so the child can mature, the mother takes great joy watching the child make her little cookies, and these moments help them grow in their relationship.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

pnewton:

Calling things you can not answer non-sequiter does not answer anything.

Zing! cache.corbis.com/thumb/11/55/40/11554003.jpg

pnewton:

say this prayer and BAM you made it to heaven.

Wow, pnewton, you make it sound so easy.

pnewton:

You say that my belief is un-Biblical despite the fact it is supported by scripture.

I think what he is saying, pnewton, is not that you are not reading the Bible, but that you are not reading his Bible, his translation, his interpretation. Occam’s Razor.

pnewton:

If all sin is forgiven past present and future, then why did Jesus tell the apostles have the right to forgive and retain sins?

Let me guess. Is it a mystery? Is Ozzie allowed to have mysteries? If so, how many? Is there a per diem quota? Drat! There’s that Latin again! How come that Latin keeps on showing up in these discussions? Isn’t there a rule against it?

 

[Genesis315]

Ozzie likes Latin. Latin is the official language of the Church. Could the seeds of conversion be planted?

 

[TNT]

Poor OZZIE says:

Actually, you’re following Rome’s rules. Rather than following any man’s* rules*, you’d be eternally better off by *believing *God’s immutable, written Word concerning salvation and His Son.

Now, OZZIE has 27 books in his NT “bible”. NOT 25,26,28 29…

So, OZZIE:
**WHOSE RULE ARE YOU FOLLOWING FOR THAT MAGIC FIGURE OF 27?
**WHERE EXACTLY DID THAT NUMBER COME FROM? WHEN IS THE FIRST TIME IT WAS EVER DECLARED?
WHERE WAS IT MADE KNOWN FOR ALL CHURCHES? Rome?, Antioch, Carthage, Jerusalem, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas?
WHO DECLARED IT?
WHAT AUTHORITY DID THEY HAVE TO DO SUCH A THING?

I INSIST ON YOU SHOWING ME IN AN HISTORICAL, SCHOLARLY RECOGNIZED, DOCUMENT, FOR THE VERY 1ST TIME, THAT SAYS IN EFFECT “27” IS IT, , NO MORE NO LESS.

This again is your 4th chance to shine a light…use it while so many are paying attention and anxiously waiting.!

 

[TNT]

Genesis315:

Ozzie likes Latin. Latin is the official language of the Church. Could the seeds of conversion be planted?

On rocky, Barren Soil? Maybe a bunch of Rosaries will fertilize and water it.
Remember Alfonse Ratisbonne? He put on the Miraculous Medal on a dare and that was the end of hatred for the True Church of Christ.
She literally educated him, pronto.
Check the miracles God gives His Catholic children.
Love his testimony!

 

[TNT]

Genesis315:

Ozzie likes Latin. Latin is the official language of the Church. Could the seeds of conversion be planted?

Unfortunately, they learn most of it from James White whose favorite Latin words are: NON and SOLA.
His sister finally discovered the ruse, and converted to the True Church of Christ.

 

[Genesis315]

TNT:

Unfortunately, they learn most of it from James White whose favorite Latin words are: NON and SOLA.
His sister finally discovered the ruse, and converted to the True Church of Christ.

Hahaha, good point. Hey, there’s hope for everybody.

 

[Ozzie]

pnewton:

Calling things you can not answer non-sequiter does not answer anything.

You tried to compare Christ healing a man with God saving a man through faith in His Son and His finished work on the cross on our behalf. As their Messiah Jesus healed the Jews of their infirmities and diseases, but as their Savior, well, that took the cross and personal faith in what He accomplished there on their behalf. The same goes for Gentiles, of course.

The history of salvation from the time of Cain until the prayers offered in Revelations show that God condescends to give us physical, sense-perciptable ways to convey spiritual grace.

He gave the Church communion and baptism. Neither of them save you, but point to the One who does.

The case of Timothy receiving his spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands also comes to mind.

But Timothy never went to Paul to get “reconciled” to the “Church and God.” He believed Paul’s message that through faith in Christ Jesus he was forever reconciled to God. And this was the same message Paul entrusted to Timothy.

2TIM. 1:8-10 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in
Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought *life *and immortality to light through the gospel,”

The idea of a physical sacramental system is far more Biblical than the modern idea of a one-time conversion, say this prayer and BAM you made it to heaven

No one is ever saved by saying a prayer. Salvation is “through faith” in Christ alone. Saying a prayer doesn’t necessarily mean one believes. God knows the heart.

You say that my belief is un-Biblical despite the fact it is supported by scripture.

The sacrament of penance/reconciliation is not Biblical.

If all sin is forgiven past present and future, then why did Jesus tell the apostles have the right to forgive and retain sins?

I answered this in a previous post.

 

[Ozzie]

Ani lbi:

Or are you saying that God’s written word is one category and Scriptures are another category? That, then would argue against Sola Scriptura. In this scenario, people do not believe non-Scriptural Church documents to be true. So they search the Scriptures, like Pharisees, to prove God wrong. Um… the real unbelievers seem to have shot themselves in the foot!

Sorry, I assumed most of you have read the N.T. Scriptures and you’d automatically know what I was alluding to. Let me show you what I was referring to. Many Jewish religious leaders were hostile toward Jesus during His earthly ministry, and later toward the Apostle’s message concerning the bodily resurrection of Christ and salvation by GRACE through faith in Him alone. When confronting them, men who themselves studied and read the Scriptures, Jesus rebuked them harshly saying:

JOHN 5:37-40 “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.”

Today, many very religious men (Protestant and Catholic alike) read the N. T. Scriptures but will not come to Christ by faith, because in their own diluted, self-righteous minds they think that God will save them because of their religious zeal, false humility and “good works.” But it is the very Scriptures they read that testify against them.

As for the list of Scriptures “Church Militant” provided, I covered most of them in previous posts. I can’t respond to the same verses over and over. But if you have a particular verse you’d like to discuss, let me know.

 

[pnewton]

Ozzie:

“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in
Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,”

Physical healing is not the same as spiritual. That was not the point, but you ignored the whole point of sense-perceptable signs throughout of God’s dealing with man.

The passage you quoted had nothing to do with the methodology of salvation. If you mean by the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then I would refer you back to the historical timetable of the writing of the gospels. Early Christians were not lead to salvation by the Bible. Nothing you have quoted has ever addressed a Biblical contradiction of Catholicism.

Ozzie:

"No one is ever saved by saying a prayer. Salvation is “through faith” in Christ** alone.**

Now when we get to the point where Ozzie is adding to, or re-writing scripture we find the problem with his theology. Rather scripture is quite clear that faith alone does not save us. No wonder Martin Luther wanted that pesky book of James out of the Bible.

Ozzie:

The sacrament of penance/reconciliation is not Biblical.

Saying so does not make it so, especially when you ignore part of scripture. I refer you again to the concept of begging the question.

Over and over again we see that the true theology of modern fundamentalist like Ozzie is not Bible alone, but rather the Bible and what they add to it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ozzie:

Sorry, I assumed most of you have read the N.T. Scriptures and you’d automatically know what I was alluding to.

The clarity of the New Testament and the clarity of your writing are two disparate things.

We cannot ‘automatically’ know the point of your allusions. We are not mindreaders. Communication starts at your end with clear writing.

As for inferring that the reason that some of us can’t follow what you are saying is because some of us have not read the New Testament:

How condescending and disrespectful. Please do not repeat this ploy.

 

[Ignatius]

Ozzie:

To “obey” is to first believe. Christ is actually making these two synonymous. .

Yes, you must have faith, but faith alone is not enough. You must have Faith as well as obedience. You can believe but refuse to obey. That’s the whole point. You must believe AND obey.

James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.
Faith alone is directly contradicted by Scripure, therefore it is a False, manmade doctrine.

 

[Teresita]

Ozzie: I am puzzled by your assumption that Saints Peter and Paul could have had no successors because such is not recorded in the Bible. Since successors are appointed only after the death of their predecessor, and since Peter and Paul didn’t die until after they’d written the epistles that bear their name, how could their writings indicate this succession? There are plenty of 2nd-century writings which do indicate this, of course, but since (presumably) you reject all later writings as pertinent to our faith, I don’t see how you’re ever going to know whether or not the Apostles did have successors.

By assuming Sola Scriptura, in fact, you are salting the fields. You demand proof which can only be found (by definition) beyond Scripture, and then tell us that you’ve proved the opposite because it’s nowhere in Scripture. That’s arguing in a circle, and is not only illogical but ludicrous.

Sue

 

[TNT]

This is OZZIE’s 5th chance…am I generous or what!

Originally Posted by Ozzie
Rather than following any man’s* rules***,** you’d be eternally better off by *believing *God’s immutable, written Word concerning salvation and His Son.

Now, OZZIE has 27 books in his NT “bible”. NOT 25,26,28 29…

So, OZZIE:
**WHOSE RULE ARE YOU FOLLOWING FOR THAT MAGIC FIGURE OF 27?
**WHERE EXACTLY DID THAT NUMBER COME FROM? WHEN IS THE FIRST TIME IT WAS EVER DECLARED?
WHERE WAS IT MADE KNOWN FOR ALL CHURCHES? Rome?, Antioch, Carthage, Jerusalem, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas?
WHO DECLARED IT?
WHAT AUTHORITY DID THEY HAVE TO DO SUCH A THING?

I INSIST ON YOU SHOWING ME IN AN HISTORICAL, SCHOLARLY RECOGNIZED, DOCUMENT, FOR THE VERY 1ST TIME, THAT SAYS IN EFFECT “27” IS IT, , NO MORE NO LESS.

This again is your 4th (see above…up to 5th now) chance to shine a light…use it while so many are paying attention and anxiously waiting.!
**These questions aint goin away OZZIE. So, until you give valid answers, the rest of us are doubting you more and more concerning your sincerity and competence.
Me thinks you are counterfeit.
**

 

[Ozzie]

pnewton:

Physical healing is not the same as spiritual. That was not the point, but you ignored the whole point of sense-perceptable signs throughout of God’s dealing with man.

I didn’t avoid it, I responded to what you said, acknowledging both communion and baptism as two divine ordinances that point to Jesus Christ. But salvation itself is through personal faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. You tried to equate physical healing with salvation, but each of those people whom Jesus healed physically soon had to believe the Apostolic message delivered to Israel after Christ’s crucifixion and bodily resurrection concerning redemption by faith in Him. That’s why the Book of Acts follows the Gospel accounts. Physical healing could save no one then, nor can “sacraments” save anyone today: “For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…”

The passage you quoted had nothing to do with the methodology of salvation.

WHAT??? Please inform me on what basis you made this assertion.

If you mean by the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then I would refer you back to the historical timetable of the writing of the gospels. Early Christians were not lead to salvation by the Bible.

The “Gospels” are the four written accounts covering the birth and earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, ending with His death and bodily resurrection. The “Gospel” (“good news message”) is the message entrusted to the Apostles who were eyewitnesses to these events and that “good news” message is salvation by GRACE through faith in Him.

 

[Ozzie]

Ignatius:

Yes, you must have faith

Now tell me, what do you mean when you say, “you must have faith?” QUOTE]

 

[Ozzie]

TNT:

This is OZZIE’s 5th chance…am I generous or what!

Now, OZZIE has 27 books in his NT “bible”. NOT 25,26,28 29…

I know you want to take this thread down this road but eventually the thread monitor will “lock it” saying we’ve drifted from the original topic. And your topic has been thoroughly discussed on several other threads.