The psychology of being "saved"

[guanophore]

I am very experienced having close friends who became charismatic Catholics. They had to depend on the Holy Spirit almost every day to make a decision. My pastor told us 160 charismatics left the Catholic Church because it was not fulfilling their needs. It appeared more and more to me an emotion based perspective of faith.

I think you hit this nail on the head in several ways, Kath.

It is a good thing to depend upon the HS every day to make decisions.

I was one who left the Church too, because I did not think my needs were getting met. Turns out that I had no idea what I really needed. I was feeling unfullfilled, but it had to do with me, and not the Church. I finally figured it out.

While the charismatic experience does meet the emotional needs of adherants, it is essential that none of our faith experience be “emotion based”. If we are not Christ based, we will get lost, whether it is in ritual, rationality, or emotionality.

 

[JustaServant]

Next to the gym I work out at, is a fairly large “Cornerstone” Church. Every Wednesday and Sunday it is so packed, it’s hard to find parking at the gym. They always play loud “upbeat” “joyous’, “:celebratory” and “exciting” type of music from loud speakers so they all could hear for all around the immediate area.
When I went to their website to see what they believed in, I found out why all the “excitement” and “celebration”. They were all “saved”. The espoused the “once saved always saved” doctrine. This was the reason for all the celebration. They all were going straight to heaven when they died. The “fight” or “struggle” was over. Thet ARE saved, and there is nothing thet are anyone could do to prevent them from reigning with the angel’s and saints when they die. So, every Wednesday and Sunday, whet they were having was basically a “mission accomplished” party, while waiting to go to heaven.
My question is how does on “fight” this as a Catholic? Do we tell them, or drag them from their party and say, “hey buddy” stop the celebration!” They would look at you like you’re nuts.

In looking back over my experience in evangelical Christianity, I would say much of it has to do with maturity, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional.
On the one hand, the Israelites in the OT had no problem exibiting their faith in God with praise and worship. But on the other hand, we decieve ourselves in thinking it resembles in any way, modern evangelical worship. Thiers had precise, liturgical foundation. They did not view worship as a ‘party’.
That did not mean there was no emotion in worship. But they understood, as did the early Church, there is a time and place for everything. Sometimes the most emotional part of worship for a Catholic is sitting in an empty Church, facing the Tabernacle, in prayer.
God said in the OT, “Be still and know that I am God”.
God would rather have us muse in His presence, than be amused.

 

[Arvan]

Next to the gym I work out at, is a fairly large “Cornerstone” Church. Every Wednesday and Sunday it is so packed, it’s hard to find parking at the gym. They always play loud “upbeat” “joyous’, “:celebratory” and “exciting” type of music from loud speakers so they all could hear for all around the immediate area.
When I went to their website to see what they believed in, I found out why all the “excitement” and “celebration”. They were all “saved”. The espoused the “once saved always saved” doctrine. This was the reason for all the celebration. They all were going straight to heaven when they died. The “fight” or “struggle” was over. Thet ARE saved, and there is nothing thet are anyone could do to prevent them from reigning with the angel’s and saints when they die. So, every Wednesday and Sunday, whet they were having was basically a “mission accomplished” party, while waiting to go to heaven.
My question is how does on “fight” this as a Catholic? Do we tell them, or drag them from their party and say, “hey buddy” stop the celebration!” They would look at you like you’re nuts.

First-I’m new here & am not an orthodox believer of any sort. But, since I’ve read comparative religions stuff in tons, I’d say that a Catholic can easily refute this OSAS myth. It originated- maybe I’m wrong here- not in Calvinist circles in the 16th cent. Europe, but in “revivalistic” culture of the 18th cent. US.

In short:

• numerous saints, Doctors of Church etc. ( Cyprian, Gregory the Great, Bede, Ireneus (sp ?), Augustine, St. Sabba, Maximus Confessor, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Cusanus, …) have never expounded this doctrine. There are instances that they had been scared at their death bed due to infernal visions (for instance: near-death.com/medieval.html )
• stripped of all verbiage, “being born again” is actually confirmation in Catholic & Orthodox Churches. A step, an important one, but not of such staggering importance Evangelicals are perpetually trying to convince themselves & others to be.
• spiritual giants of CC (from Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria … to St. Francis, Jan Ruysbroeck, Henry Suso, Theresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Ignatius Loyola, …) have passed through not only this, but immensely vaster & deeper stages of psycho-spiritual transformation (look in a classic written by Evelyn Underhill: ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.toc.html - in her lingo, this is close to the awakening of the self)- without claiming OSAS.

In sum: a hill was, due to optical illusion, mistaken for a mountain.

 

[CopticChristian]

First-I’m new here & am not an orthodox believer of any sort. But, since I’ve read comparative religions stuff in tons, I’d say that a Catholic can easily refute this OSAS myth. It originated- maybe I’m wrong here- not in Calvinist circles in the 16th cent. Europe, but in “revivalistic” culture of the 18th cent. US.

In short:

• numerous saints, Doctors of Church etc. ( Cyprian, Gregory the Great, Bede, Ireneus (sp ?), Augustine, St. Sabba, Maximus Confessor, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Cusanus, …) have never expounded this doctrine. There are instances that they had been scared at their death bed due to infernal visions (for instance: near-death.com/medieval.html )
• stripped of all verbiage, “being born again” is actually confirmation in Catholic & Orthodox Churches. A step, an important one, but not of such staggering importance Evangelicals are perpetually trying to convince themselves & others to be.
• spiritual giants of CC (from Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria … to St. Francis, Jan Ruysbroeck, Henry Suso, Theresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Ignatius Loyola, …) have passed through not only this, but immensely vaster & deeper stages of psycho-spiritual transformation (look in a classic written by Evelyn Underhill: ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.toc.html - in her lingo, this is close to the awakening of the self)- without claiming OSAS.

In sum: a hill was, due to optical illusion, mistaken for a mountain.

What I believe is happening is an attempt to engage the mind of those that are Catholic, who never say they know much of anything about eternal security, and the Bible/Churches that use the Bible to smile and say…"well looky here…says…we are predestined…your Church is lying and you can know…and welcome to our Church.

 

[Arvan]

What I believe is happening is an attempt to engage the mind of those that are Catholic, who never say they know much of anything about eternal security, and the Bible/Churches that use the Bible to smile and say…"well looky here…says…we are predestined…your Church is lying and you can know…and welcome to our Church.

Maybe. But, all the bells & whistles aside- “born again”** is** confirmation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation

Simply, it’s one aspect of Christian spiritual life other Christians (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox,…) have had from the beginning. OSAS have, with their “born again” insistence, actually reinvented the wheel. :coffeeread:

 

[KathleenGee]

The seal of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Confirmation is ours, not emotions.

Catholicism lives out the words of Christ, that He would always remain with us…in His Word and in His sacraments…

The Sacraments are visible, concrete outer signs of the life of grace of Christ within.

No arbitration, no veil of language…concrete reality.

We say Amen to what has happened at the Mass at the end of the consecration that Christ is physically manifested to us. We receive Him, He is renewed in us, and then we go out to serve Him in others, a life of giving in grace.

We don’t have Bible studies where we have our pencils and dictionaries looking up in a Websters Dictionary seeing what this or that word means in English.

With the Sacraments…He is already here. We trust Him. He is with us. The Holy Spirit communicates the Lord to us…we hear the Word, we respond in reception of Communion…and then we go out to live God’s will in our lives in our daily duty…without fanfare…carrying the cross and without fanfare…a gentle, quiet spirit is where the Lord leads us to become…

Because virtue hides itself. Humility. Self-abnegation with a ordinary, cheerful heart…bringing no undue attention to self…this is a reflection of Catholic spirituality lived out after we have our fellowship at Mass.

 

[Arvan]

OK, I’ll try again about “born again”
Without Bible, John Wesley etc.

It is a common trait of psycho-spiritual life that a person may pass through
a stage where they experience that a vital part of their old self/personality
“dies” & is somehow replaced with something new, numinous and “spiritual”.
Keywords are rejuvenation, regeneration, rebirth …

One can find this in Greek mysteries, shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islamic Sufism,
Confucianism, Christianity,…

So- it’s not restricted to Christianity, let alone evangelical Protestantism.

There you are.

 

[KathleenGee]

We say Amen with knowledge, free will, reason in love.

People don’t need to have alot of emotions to believe.

Contrary to the media, many scientists come to believe in God through their study of science…and this common theme of intelligence of a Creator.

It is said from ancient Scripture…from ancient, primitive people who were inspired by the Holy Spirit—Who else could it be…that the Lord just simply ‘willed’ and creation began.

‘I Am Who Am’.

In Thomas Aquinas ‘Summa Theologica’…the book on God…and reflections of Catholic theology…creation is constantly changing, evolving, and science proves that. But God is the Unmoved Mover…the only constancy…

Emotions are like human opinion…as fickle as the wind…do not ever put your trust in emotions but in the will of God…use reason…

Of course, emotions when fulfilled in that what is good—a lover, a profession, seeing and experiencing the good of creation… most of all pleasing God and having a clear, clean conscience…happiness in these things make our happiness complete. It is just through time, a person growing in wisdom learns the great teaching and help of Detachment. The more you detach yourself from things that are passing, including people, but grow in love for God and others — and yourself, the more you enter into the divine life and experience alot of peace and constancy and serenity…that greatly helps in perceiving what is true and right in your daily life.

 

[GaryTaylor]

While no one can pass judgment on the joy of another, your question about the psychology of being saved brings to my mind the difference between euphoric pleasure, a more carnal enjoyment, and true joy, a more spiritual fulfillment. Dancing and singing and holding hands and flat out revelry are, in my opinion, attempts to “force” spiritual joy by indulging the body in ways that approach carnal passion. Very opposite the seasonally appropriate Catholic means of fasting and denial, and solemn prayer.

Since joy is a foretaste of heaven, it must (in my opinion) be distinguished from pleasure that is and can be illicitly forced. Again, no judgment on others’ ways of happiness–lest I condemn half the world and myself in the same breath.

But really, such a psychology is likely to stem from either a life of prior excessive indulgence in vices and numbness to the focused joy of the indwelling spirit, the Holy Spirit; or else stems from prior deprivation of true love, which would have united a person to form a family before involvement in such a group. Either way, as some of the thread responses indicate, it is better that Jesus’ Church, which in Paul’s gospel is “all things to all people,” is the one for whose sake these people are attempting to force the spirit into their hearts. True, Catholics know from our mass that “equality with God was not something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6): but yet, there is a kind of warmth in what some of these folks, zealously uninstructed in the way “letting go”, will try to do to attain or grasp equality with God. In my opinion, it is not much different than when another kind of psychologist says “It’s all about self esteem, loving yourself, having self (confidence), etc.”

When confronted with such situations, I might consciously meditate on the Acts of the Apostles. In that book of true friendship, of the earliest church it was said: “But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.” (Acts 5:39).

It has been difficult for me to accept the divisions of the church and thus the idea of salvation outside our given Rite; but the reality seems to be, there are many cases where it is possible with the help of our prayers.

Humm, interesting Michael. Apparently no-one wanted to mess with this. You can only confirm in your own mind what you have accepted as truth. If you are walking in complete darkness, how will you find the light?

How does Barbarism become civilized man? He didn’t know he was barbaric. Had he known this he would have figure the way out. He had to be taught and the truth had to be accepted. No different than today, and barbarism is once again at the door as the Dark-Ages are falling upon man “again”.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

While no one can pass judgment on the joy of another, your question about the psychology of being saved brings to my mind the difference between euphoric pleasure, a more carnal enjoyment, and true joy, a more spiritual fulfillment. Dancing and singing and holding hands and flat out revelry are, in my opinion, attempts to “force” spiritual joy by indulging the body in ways that approach carnal passion. Very opposite the seasonally appropriate Catholic means of fasting and denial, and solemn prayer.

Since joy is a foretaste of heaven, it must (in my opinion) be distinguished from pleasure that is and can be illicitly forced. Again, no judgment on others’ ways of happiness–lest I condemn half the world and myself in the same breath.

But really, such a psychology is likely to stem from either a life of prior excessive indulgence in vices and numbness to the focused joy of the indwelling spirit, the Holy Spirit; or else stems from prior deprivation of true love, which would have united a person to form a family before involvement in such a group. Either way, as some of the thread responses indicate, it is better that Jesus’ Church, which in Paul’s gospel is “all things to all people,” is the one for whose sake these people are attempting to force the spirit into their hearts. True, Catholics know from our mass that “equality with God was not something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6): but yet, there is a kind of warmth in what some of these folks, zealously uninstructed in the way “letting go”, will try to do to attain or grasp equality with God. In my opinion, it is not much different than when another kind of psychologist says “It’s all about self esteem, loving yourself, having self (confidence), etc.”

When confronted with such situations, I might consciously meditate on the Acts of the Apostles. In that book of true friendship, of the earliest church it was said: “But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.” (Acts 5:39).

It has been difficult for me to accept the divisions of the church and thus the idea of salvation outside our given Rite; but the reality seems to be, there are many cases where it is possible with the help of our prayers.

Humm, interesting Michael. Apparently no-one wanted to mess with this. You can only confirm in your own mind what you have accepted as truth. If you are walking in complete darkness, how will you find the light?

How does Barbarism become civilized man? He didn’t know he was barbaric. Had he known this he would have figured the way out. He had to be taught and the truth had to be accepted. No different than today, and barbarism is once again at the door as the Dark-Ages are falling upon man “again”.

Peace

 

[Anna_Scott]

Next to the gym I work out at, is a fairly large “Cornerstone” Church. Every Wednesday and Sunday it is so packed, it’s hard to find parking at the gym. They always play loud “upbeat” “joyous’, “:celebratory” and “exciting” type of music from loud speakers so they all could hear for all around the immediate area.
When I went to their website to see what they believed in, I found out why all the “excitement” and “celebration”. They were all “saved”. The espoused the “once saved always saved” doctrine. This was the reason for all the celebration. They all were going straight to heaven when they died. The “fight” or “struggle” was over. Thet ARE saved, and there is nothing thet are anyone could do to prevent them from reigning with the angel’s and saints when they die. So, every Wednesday and Sunday, whet they were having was basically a “mission accomplished” party, while waiting to go to heaven.
My question is how does on “fight” this as a Catholic? Do we tell them, or drag them from their party and say, “hey buddy” stop the celebration!” They would look at you like you’re nuts.

keepitreal,

While I no longer believe in OSAS and I think an emotional experience is often mistakenly interpreted as a spiritual experience; I would be cautious about judging this group of Christians. They may be more dedicated to Christ and living out their faith than you may think. You may be misinterpreting their worship, just as many Evangelicals misinterpret the Catholic Mass.

Peace,
Anna