the pull out method?

[camerong]

Pulling-out to lessen chances of conception fits the very definition of contraception (after all, condoms do not infallibly prevent contraception, just lessen the chances).

Proper NFP will fully inform you when you can have fully have sex without leading to conception.

 

[camerong]

OK, that position would be consistent regarding NFP and not justifying withdrawal, but it would also appear to invalidate sample collection using a punctured prophylactic since there is a “hindrance”. Is that a fair understanding of the teaching?

I suppose if one used a perforated condom as a means to lessen the chances of contraception, this would be sinful.

 

[FightingFat]

Pulling-out to lessen chances of conception fits the very definition of contraception (after all, condoms do not infallibly prevent contraception, just lessen the chances).

Proper NFP will fully inform you when you can have fully have sex without leading to conception.

That’s the point here (as I see it). Why use withdrawal when NFP works better and is in line with Church teaching?

 

[chain]

I can think of several reasons that a couple would want to interrupt their intercourse.

1. by interrupting the intercourse it is possible for the man to be re-aroused much sooner.
2. one of the spouses think it’s messy
3. they want the man to ejaculate by another means.

While none of these are specifically to prevent pregnancy, all seam dis-unitive.

 

[tgwaste]

The Church does not rule something immoral unless it IS immoral. Certain things that have changed over the centuries (priestly celibacy, language for the Mass, meat on Fridays) are disciplines that do not fall under the category of morality.

If, in your example, a couple employed that “technique” with the intent of contracepting or of using the sex act as something other than what it is meant to be, then the act is immoral. If, on the other hand, an error occurs that caused a climax to occur outside of its normal place, there is no intent to change the nature of the sex act and thus there is no sin.

Peace,
Dante

so what about NFP? you dont think its a technique with the intent on contracepting? sure it has the intent on life too but its FULL intent is to control when you get pregnant and when you dont… im having a hard time with the difference.

 

[TEPO]

There are two purposes for intercourse. Procreation and Unitivity.

According to CCC 2366, man must not remove either one of these purposes from the Marital Act, on his own initiative. They are both inherent to the marital act.

The fact that I wish to choose one without the other just shows exactly how unnatural my life is. I need a spiritual awakening.

I also recently found out that smoking is a mortal sin. God help me.

 

[camerong]

The fact that I wish to choose one without the other just shows exactly how unnatural my life is. I need a spiritual awakening.

I also recently found out that smoking is a mortal sin. God help me.

I have no idea what you’re getting at in the first sentence, but we all have desires which are contrary to God’s will.

Smoking is not a mortal sin.

And we could all use a spiritual awakening.

 

[TEPO]

I have no idea what you’re getting at in the first sentence, but we all have desires which are contrary to God’s will.

What I’m saying is that I desire physical “unitveness” with my wife at times. In other words, I want to be romantic with her. Sometimes one thing leads to another and in the end, the idea of procreation scares me… I fall into mortal sin. As rare as this is, it does happen occasionally to me. I admit it -I’m guilty.

My point in general is that my life here on earth is not “natural”. I cannot afford to have more children than I already have. If I lived the way people lived hundreds of years ago, like on a farm or ranch, where more children could help with chores, that would be the “natural” way of life. But no, I’m in a two bedroom apartment with three kids, paying over 2500.00 a month. NFP seems like more of a hassle… It ruins the mood to “plan-out” romance. I’d rather refrain or just have more kids then… But I need to stop sinning…!

Don’t get me wrong, I just had a baby 6 months ago. I would welcome another child into the family anyday, I’m just upset with myself for having had the desire to choose unitiveness without procreation a few times. I need to repent.

Smoking is not a mortal sin.

Is lust a worse than murder…? If it is a mortal sin to “withdraw” or “masturbate”, then it is surely a sin to smoke… Once we know that smoking decreases our lifespan, it becomes a mortal sin… Just like once we learn that “withdrawal” is a mortal sin we must refrain from doing it.

And we could all use a spiritual awakening.

I agree. A few years ago I quit smoking, worked out daily, said the rosary everyday, and was the best person I have ever been…

Today, I have fallen back into alot of my addictions including cigarettes. I pray much less than I used to. Shame on me.

 

[Newbie2]

Its all about intent of the action.

Actually, it’s about both the intent and the action.

Otherwise, the intent of a couple who uses a condom and says (and believes) “OK, God, if this condom breaks or leaks, we are open to having a pregnancy as a result” is the moral equivalent of a couple who uses NFP. Both have the intent of being open to life, only one does not actually act against it.

 

[twoangels]

The church’s teaching is that we should never render sex sterile…well iff there is semen in pre-ejaculatory fluids than how is the withdrawal method rendering sex sterile? I read in a good catholic book that for sex to be unitive and procreative there has to be at-least partial vaginal intercourse and partial semination…

How many time has the church condemned things and than later on accepted it?

The issue is that NFP is licit because it is the abstainence that prevents pregnancy. Contraceptives and to a limited degree, withdrawl, do not prevent pregnancy through abstainence. They prevent pregnancy by disrupting the nature of the act, or by surpressing natural bodily functions for convinence.

Sex is about totally giving yourself to each other. You should let the act, when you engage in it, be what it is, rather than use your intellect and will to satisfy part of your cravings for sex while actively rejecting the other ends. Ultimately each encounter should involve total complete expression of love to each other. The expression of love should be completely free. This freedom means not making efforts to thwart the ends of the act in that particular act, not in general. What is moral is moral about sex during the infertile periods is that no action in that particular act thwarts the end of the act. It is simply freely engaged upon or not engaged in at all.

I do think people get into shaky legalistic moral ground when they start insisting on what sex should be as if the Church gave us a step by step manual. The Church doesn’t tell us how to have sex. God has written that in our instincts. The Church merely tells us not to thwart God’s designs for it.

 

[chain]

I would suggest to give NFP a chance before writing it off as to much hassle. We are allowed to postpone pregnancy for serious reasons. We can postpone it through complete or partial celibacy.

Do not think about NFP as something that ruins the moment. Think of it as fasting from something that is good and desirable. It is not a long fast, nor a painful one. But is an opportunity to be obedient to the Church teaching, and to God’s natural plan of life.

Obedience can change your perception. My wife and I ultimately decided we needed less stuff and could find a way to afford another child. We used NFP there too - still it took us 9 months to conceive. Perhaps we will be ready for another in a few years, perhaps not, perhaps God will surprise us.

We are lucky - my wife’s NFP coach (and spiritual mentor) made the decision to have another child a little too late (mid 40’s) - only to find out she could not. But God was working in that too. Her loss motivated a lot of her friends to stop waiting (and resulted in a wave of “geriatric” (over 40 years old) pregnancies) in our faith community.

 

[SirCh2Vs5and6]

Hello all. This is my first post. My wife (30 years old) and I (29 years old) have been using withdrawal for several years now and our feelings are quite mixed. I pray that no one will judge myself or my wife and that everyone who responds will do so with charity. I also would like to apologize if I ramble or jump all over in this post, I will try not to.

A little side note, it’s been awhile since I have looked at NFP information, so please forgive and correct my ignorance where necessary.

We were eager to try and do what the Church teaches as a married couple, so about 5 years ago we decided to attend a local NFP group. We learned all about recording and plotting out temperatures on a graph and checking mucus and being aware of the 3 phases. We really felt we had a good grasp of it all, however, we came to find out through these processes that she had a very short luteal phase, which is the time when we could have sex without her becoming pregnant. Naturally, this was a discouraging turn of events, considering we would have to abstain for the majority of the month. This wasn’t such a huge issue to me as I thought it would help us to grow and appreciate each other. I mean, having to abstain that long seems quite difficult in general, but coupled with the fact that I began to over analyze about the week when we could have sex and whether or not I would be in the mood or if she would didn’t help my attitude/desire. I get very caught up in my thoughts and have to pray for the grace not to give merit to the thoughts, but it’s not always easy and that’s a whole other topic (although, I’d appreciate any advice.)

Now, we did practice NFP I believe for 1 month and there were a handful of times that I would try to be intimate with her, knowing we couldn’t have sex, but I thought we could kiss and well to put it bluntly, “fool around.” Sorry for the base phrase. This truly bothered her because I was causing her to be aroused to the point of not wanting to stop, knowing we had to because we were abstaining. So, needless to say, she was upset with how I acted during the abstaining periods.

At this point, I was consumed with guilt and the only way we could justify it was because we always said that if she got pregnant using withdrawal, so that makes it not a mortal sin. Not to help matters, we had a priest tell us it wasn’t a mortal sin. I never felt right about what the priest said or our own justification, but what were we to do? So, I did what any sinner does, justify the action and ignore the guilt. Fast forward these 5 years, we now have two beautiful sons and we love them greatly. However, from time to time this topic of withdrawal comes up and we always discuss it away with justifications.

Our marriage has had it’s shares of ups and downs, as does any, but we drifted apart in our respect for one another and intimately. Sexual intimacy came down to once week, twice (rarely) and usually relegated to nap time and 99.9% of the time, after having a drink or two together. I know there is no correct number for how often we should be having sex, but we both want to be closer to each other. This went on for a couple of years and we didn’t really ever pursue the Faith. You know, we’d miss Mass for little reasons and make excuses and not go to confession, or eventually we’d go to confession. I go more than she does, she is apprehensive about confession, almost embarrassed.

In addition, my wife breastfeeds and we were taught in the classes that judging when fertility has returned is not always so accurate, therefore you don’t really know if she fertile or not during breastfeeding. This caused her great stress just thinking about it and she was adamant that she could not/would not practice NFP while breastfeeding. So, again we chose withdrawal.

Anyways, a couple of years ago, I went through a very dark time, right when we found out she was pregnant with our second son, or right when we started trying. I’m not going to go into the details, but I was very depressed, afraid, sad, isolated, losing weight, had suicidal, despairing thoughts. I even considered leaving my wife and family. I sought out a local priest and went to some work provided counseling. Things got better, although at times I feel that God test my faith in the same manner from time to time.

I feel as though God used the darkness, the cross to bring me closer to Him. In turn, I’ve started praying the rosary, at least 5 days a week and going to daily mass one day during the week, and confession once a month. I’m also working harder at trying to be a better husband and father. You know, less selfish and such. I’m trying to care more about my wife than I do myself, something I practically stopped doing over the years (as a point of reference, we’ve been married coming up on 7 years.)

 

[SirCh2Vs5and6]

Continued…

Sometimes I still feel anxiety, or almost threatened by the dark period from a couple years ago, but I do my best to trust in God and pray for Grace, Hope, Faith and Peace. I pray even for Wisdom and Understanding. I desire to truly know Jesus, to surrender to Him, to carry my cross and follow Him and to obtain the Peace that only He gives. And sometimes, I receive that consolation and my life feels wonderful and I’m happy and at peace, Thank God! Other times, like right now I feel kind of down and at times anxious. Honestly, I feel that I am under such spiritual attack and I don’t understand why God allows it.

Back to the subject of confession, I hardly have ever confessed withdrawal, as I was convinced or I justified it. From time to time, I would but not often. Well anyways, I went to daily Mass today and made it in time for confession. I wasn’t sure what to confess, having been the week prior but I felt a strong urge to confess withdrawal, seemingly out of the blue.

Some could argue this was just “Catholic guilt”, my own over analyzing perhaps, or yet maybe it was the Holy Spirit. Well I confessed it and briefly explained to the priest how guilty my wife and I feel and that we just don’t know what to do.

Of course, I start double and triple checking on the internet for confirmation that this is indeed a mortal sin. I knew that Google would lead me here . Anyways, I want to discuss this with my wife but I’m not sure what to say without it turning into a big argument. I want to be with her, but I feel this cloud of guilt and anxiety, thinking that being with her I will also end up committing a mortal sin. You can see how this doesn’t lend itself to intimacy.

I would really appreciate prayers first and foremost, but also advice. I know that there are even priests on this forum and I would greatly appreciate their pastoral guidance.

As a side note, it really bothers me how I can receive Christ in the Eucharist, yet not feel elated or joyful or at peace. Why is it that I don’t? I mean, on occasion I do, but not always. Oh, and another question which I know doesn’t belong in this topic. What does God want from me? Why can’t I discern his will for my life. Is it just to be a good husband and father? I want to be closer to Him, to love Him, to be pleasing to Him. At this moment, I feel distant. I also have very discouraging thoughts that run through my mind often. A lot of times, the thoughts are conflicting, almost like I’m arguing.

I do read the Magnificat prayer book about 5 days a week, I try to talk to God often. Sorry for rambling.

 

[pandiok]

What about a couple who are beyond child bearing because of a hysterectomy etc and the wife is unable to have penetrative sex because of her medical condition? What are they expected to do?

 

[Joe_5859]

I would really appreciate prayers first and foremost, but also advice. I know that there are even priests on this forum and I would greatly appreciate their pastoral guidance.

Welcome to CAF!

I’m sorry you haven’t received any responses so far. I think that may be because you tacked on your post to an older, existing thread rather than starting a new one. There’s a lot of us here at CAF who are always eager to chime in with our opinions. So if you repost the above two posts into a new thread, I’m sure you’d get a lot of responses.

In regards to the “withdrawal” question, there is actually a word for it: Onanism. It is named after a guy in the Old Testament named Onan who committed this practice and was struck dead. So, yes it is a sinful act.

I would highly recommend contacting your local priest and making an appointment with him. Sometimes, Confession at the regularly scheduled times can be a bit fast-paced and tough to get substantial advice. If you make an appointment, you will have more time to discuss your situation and receive good pastoral direction.

I will pray for you. Marriage has its share of hardships. Grace is always necessary!

 

[hazmat]

is it a sin if youre a man who doesnt want to have kids, and you purposefully pursue women who cannot have kids, in order to marry them and have unprotected sex with them without the possibility of having kids?

 

[Joe_5859]

is it a sin if youre a man who doesnt want to have kids, and you purposefully pursue women who cannot have kids, in order to marry them and have unprotected sex with them without the possibility of having kids?

I would advise such a person to seek the counsel of a priest immediately.

Making the choice of a spouse based solely on their lack of fertility is problematic for many reasons, not the least of which being that the lack of openness to children is an impediment to contracting a valid marriage.

I have difficulty imagining a scenario where this wouldn’t be gravely sinful on several different levels.

 

[hazmat]

well, not solely that criterion, but say the most important, or one of the most important (e.g., must be catholic + must be unable to have children). what about that would be a sin? is it a sin to not want children? is it a sin to have sex knowing you cant have children? what is the sin, exactly?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

well, not solely that criterion, but say the most important, or one of the most important (e.g., must be catholic + must be unable to have children). what about that would be a sin? is it a sin to not want children? is it a sin to have sex knowing you cant have children? what is the sin, exactly?

Can you try not to hijack the OP’s thread? You have asked about 5 questions now, that are going to distract from what the OP so carefully wrote. Ask your own questions, please.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Continued…

Sometimes I still feel anxiety, or almost threatened by the dark period from a couple years ago, but I do my best to trust in God and pray for Grace, Hope, Faith and Peace. I pray even for Wisdom and Understanding. I desire to truly know Jesus, to surrender to Him, to carry my cross and follow Him and to obtain the Peace that only He gives. And sometimes, I receive that consolation and my life feels wonderful and I’m happy and at peace, Thank God! Other times, like right now I feel kind of down and at times anxious. Honestly, I feel that I am under such spiritual attack and I don’t understand why God allows it.

Back to the subject of confession, I hardly have ever confessed withdrawal, as I was convinced or I justified it. From time to time, I would but not often. Well anyways, I went to daily Mass today and made it in time for confession. I wasn’t sure what to confess, having been the week prior but I felt a strong urge to confess withdrawal, seemingly out of the blue.

Some could argue this was just “Catholic guilt”, my own over analyzing perhaps, or yet maybe it was the Holy Spirit. Well I confessed it and briefly explained to the priest how guilty my wife and I feel and that we just don’t know what to do.

Of course, I start double and triple checking on the internet for confirmation that this is indeed a mortal sin. I knew that Google would lead me here . Anyways, I want to discuss this with my wife but I’m not sure what to say without it turning into a big argument. I want to be with her, but I feel this cloud of guilt and anxiety, thinking that being with her I will also end up committing a mortal sin. You can see how this doesn’t lend itself to intimacy.

I would really appreciate prayers first and foremost, but also advice. I know that there are even priests on this forum and I would greatly appreciate their pastoral guidance.

As a side note, it really bothers me how I can receive Christ in the Eucharist, yet not feel elated or joyful or at peace. Why is it that I don’t? I mean, on occasion I do, but not always. Oh, and another question which I know doesn’t belong in this topic. What does God want from me? Why can’t I discern his will for my life. Is it just to be a good husband and father? I want to be closer to Him, to love Him, to be pleasing to Him. At this moment, I feel distant. I also have very discouraging thoughts that run through my mind often. A lot of times, the thoughts are conflicting, almost like I’m arguing.

I do read the Magnificat prayer book about 5 days a week, I try to talk to God often. Sorry for rambling.

OP, I am going to address this last point first, so as to get this thread back on track and not diverted with 1,000 other questions by members who aren’t responding directly to you.

The Eucharist is not a magic pill. You are not going to “feel” its effects most of the time. But rest assured, the grace is there, regardless of your emotional state. Your discouraged and discouraging thoughts bring you away from Jesus, so I would consider them to emanate from Satan. Thus, give them no consideration whatsoever. Pray the rosary when you feel discouraged. Ignore the thoughts that are contrary to God’s commands. We who struggle with depression tend to ruminate (the same action a cow does in the field, chew its cud) over the same thoughts, go back over our own sore spots, and give plenty of credence to negative thinking. Visualize a huge STOP sign whenever you find yourself going back over old wounds or new negative thoughts.

Receive the Eucharist and be grateful. His grace is flowing over you even if you don’t feel it to be there. I assure you that it is.

p.s. I see that you aren’t the OP, original poster, of this thread after all, but that you have added it onto a dormant thread. Feel free to copy your posts into a new thread so posters don’t start responding to the original post. It gets confusing when people put their new questions on a thread that’s been dormant for a while.