the pull out method?

[chain]

SirCh2Vs5and6, understand that you are not alone. I will include you in my prayers - please include the rest of us in yours…

Catholic guilt kicks in occasionally with me - not sure if I am being scrupulous, or just seeing my own shortcomings. Surely it is missing the mark when the marital embrace becomes a duty for one rather than a communion of both spouses. While falling short - I can only hope that it is not a serious matter that one the act became a taking rather than a giving due to one spouses lack of sleep.

Or how about the accidental failure to complete the marital act, when the thought runs through your head if I fail, there is less chance of pregnancy.

Is a hot tub a sin - long soaks can reduce sperm count by 500%… I don’t know. Really don’t know when I think - is that realythe reason I am soaking…

 

[tgwaste]

SirCh2Vs5and6, understand that you are not alone. I will include you in my prayers - please include the rest of us in yours…

Catholic guilt kicks in occasionally with me - not sure if I am being scrupulous, or just seeing my own shortcomings. Surely it is missing the mark when the marital embrace becomes a duty for one rather than a communion of both spouses. While falling short - I can only hope that it is not a serious matter that one the act became a taking rather than a giving due to one spouses lack of sleep.

Or how about the accidental failure to complete the marital act, when the thought runs through your head if I fail, there is less chance of pregnancy.

Is a hot tub a sin - long soaks can reduce sperm count by 500%… I don’t know. Really don’t know when I think - is that realythe reason I am soaking…

“what ifs” are typically a sign of someone trying to excuse sin. I know as Im guilty of it myself.

The answer is you just know. Even when I was away from the church in my worst sin I still had a sense of knowing. You know your intentions. You know if your getting into a hot tub with the intention of going against god.

I would also like to address this remark from another poster:

“Your discouraged and discouraging thoughts bring you away from Jesus, so I would consider them to emanate from Satan. Thus, give them no consideration whatsoever.”

Would you mind expanding on this? Ive often had difficult times with correlation between Satan and thoughts. We know that Satan can not read minds so what is the extent of his infiltration of your thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[asd72]

I think a good thing to consider with NFP is that you do have to make sacrifices by abstaining rather than contracepting to plan your family, but consider someone with SSA who has to sacrifice so much more. Or someone who’s wife or husband had a serious long-term illness and could no longer be intimate.

 

[smorin1487]

From Humanae Vitae (14):

Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means.

The act you ask about is an action, at the moment of intercourse, specifically intended to prevent procreation.

From Casti Connubii (55):

1. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”

In Casti Connubii, Pius XI quotes Augustine specifically on the sin of Onan-- withdrawing before ejaculation.

Casti Connubii (56):

any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.

If all this is true, why is Naturally Family Planning ok? People do it with the intent of having sex when you can’t get pregnant.

I spoke at length with my Bishop about all this last year, and he told me the Church had sort of changed her teachings recently, to the idea that within marriage, sex between the loving and husband and wife is perfectly beautiful and loving, as long as they were open to the idea of having kids. He even said that oral, anal, and other forms of sex were ok.

 

[chain]

It is confusing because there has been a generation of inconsistent catichesis. For decades it appears there was continued protest against the ban on artificial birth control not only by the laity, but much of the clergy as well. The official position of the Catholic Church is well known, there are still many clergy who will instruct the faithful when and how that position can be stretched or even avoided.

I have been at homilies where the Priest has told us how we can avoid viewing premarital sex as a moral sin. I have been in a parish where the Priest told the RCIA class they did not need to go to confession because it was impossible to even commit a mortal sin. Seeing these extremes are present - it is little doubt there is some varying opinions express from the pulpit.

That all said. We believe that life begins at conception. Any birth control that terminates that life is murder. The IUD prevents implantation. There is some evidence the pill can also do that occasionally (should it fail to prevent conception, there is some evidence that the resulting fertilized egg has a somewhat higher chance in failing to implant). The condom and pulling out are inherently not open to life (so we fall short there).

That leaves NFP. NFP is often taught as a concession. We must meet people where they are at - and with NFP, that is more often than not with a contraceptive mentality. As such, NFP is falling short. Venial sin short? Mortal sin short?. One good thing with NFP is it appears to give the Holy Spirit a window to yell in from. As people use NFP, they often have a change of heart.

Within marriage, we are called to be open to life and only avoid pregnancy for serious reasons. NFP is avoiding or postponing pregnancy - do you have a serious reason?.​

My wife recently went to a pro-life, CATHOLIC, obgn. We went out of our way considerably to find (what we thought) was one of the most faithful OBGN’s in the state. I don’t count, but in 20 minutes I think he mentioned hysterectomy’s a dozen times. Hard to condemn a priest who faced with that type of pressure, plus the fact that the abortion byproduct of the pill is not necessarily well known, tells women in their community they are going to hell for using ABC.

 

[smorin1487]

It is confusing because there has been a generation of inconsistent catichesis. For decades it appears there was continued protest against the ban on artificial birth control not only by the laity, but much of the clergy as well. The official position of the Catholic Church is well known, there are still many clergy who will instruct the faithful when and how that position can be stretched or even avoided.

I have been at homilies where the Priest has told us how we can avoid viewing premarital sex as a moral sin. I have been in a parish where the Priest told the RCIA class they did not need to go to confession because it was impossible to even commit a mortal sin. Seeing these extremes are present - it is little doubt there is some varying opinions express from the pulpit.

That all said. We believe that life begins at conception. Any birth control that terminates that life is murder. The IUD prevents implantation. There is some evidence the pill can also do that occasionally (should it fail to prevent conception, there is some evidence that the resulting fertilized egg has a somewhat higher chance in failing to implant). The condom and pulling out are inherently not open to life (so we fall short there).

That leaves NFP. NFP is often taught as a concession. We must meet people where they are at - and with NFP, that is more often than not with a contraceptive mentality. As such, NFP is falling short. Venial sin short? Mortal sin short?. One good thing with NFP is it appears to give the Holy Spirit a window to yell in from. As people use NFP, they often have a change of heart.

Within marriage, we are called to be open to life and only avoid pregnancy for serious reasons. NFP is avoiding or postponing pregnancy - do you have a serious reason?.​

My wife recently went to a pro-life, CATHOLIC, obgn. We went out of our way considerably to find (what we thought) was one of the most faithful OBGN’s in the state. I don’t count, but in 20 minutes I think he mentioned hysterectomy’s a dozen times. Hard to condemn a priest who faced with that type of pressure, plus the fact that the abortion byproduct of the pill is not necessarily well known, tells women in their community they are going to hell for using ABC.

Thanks for this answer… it was very helpful for me personally.

 

[Curious_Seed]

If there is semen in pre-ejaculation than isn’t the pull out method still geared towards life?

Contraception is contraception by any way which achieves it.

If that way be by monthly fertility planning, withdrawal, or IUD, it is contraception.

If contraception is immoral, then all intended contraception is immoral.

If that way be by monthly fertility planning, withdrawal, or IUD, it is immoral.

 

[etmom]

Contraception is contraception by any way which achieves it.

If that way be by monthly fertility planning, withdrawal, or IUD, it is contraception.

If contraception is immoral, then all intended contraception is immoral.

If that way be by monthly fertility planning, withdrawal, or IUD, it is immoral.

So those who use NFP for grave reasons need to confess using “contraception” when they go to confession?

 

[Nate13]

The act of contracepting is a description of an act of sex. If you don’t have sex, there is no act to contracept lol. Thus it makes no sense to say NFP is contracepting unless your going to argue sex is by nature contraceptive at times. Saying vaginal sex is contraceptive by nature though would be a nonsensical statement.

 

[Curious_Seed]

So those who use NFP for grave reasons need to confess using “contraception” when they go to confession?

An IUD is a device for intention of contraception.

IUD usage is considered immoral.

NFP is a device for intention of contraception.

However, NFP is not regarded as such, by the Catholic Church.

NFP is considered moral.

Go figure.

 

[etmom]

Then the church would have to say it is immoral to EVERY abstain from sexual relations during a fertile period,. You don’t need to use NFP or chart to know when you are most likely fertile. They would be mandating sexual activity during each and every cycle, and if a woman had an annovulatory cycle, she would have to abstain because it would be immoral to have sexual relations during an obviously infertile time?

An IUD interferes with a woman’s physiology to avoid fertilization or implantation. It can cause an abortion. You are putting that on the same moral plane as abstaining from maritial relations?

So you do not accept the Church’s authority on this issue?

 

[Curious_Seed]

I am delineating devices for purposes of contraception.

Those devices are not limited to pills or various IUDs; those devices also include any means where there is intention and method to avoid conceiving, such as NFP.

The Catholic Church magisterially denounces contraception as immoral.

All well and good, but that NFP is deemed by the Church as non-contraceptive, though it clearly is.

 

[davidv]

I am delineating devices for purposes of contraception.

Those devices are not limited to pills or various IUDs; those devices also include any means where there is intention and method to avoid conceiving, such as NFP.

The Catholic Church magisterially denounces contraception as immoral.

All well and good, but that NFP is deemed by the Church as non-contraceptive, though it clearly is.

If the contraceptive nature of NFP was as clear as you proclaim, the Church would not have declared it otherwise.

 

[Corki]

I am delineating devices for purposes of contraception.

Those devices are not limited to pills or various IUDs; those devices also include any means where there is intention and method to avoid conceiving, such as NFP.

The Catholic Church magisterially denounces contraception as immoral.

All well and good, but that NFP is deemed by the Church as non-contraceptive, though it clearly is.

No, it clearly isn’t. NFP does nothing to change **the act **of having sex into one that has will not result in a pregnancy.

Contraceptives alter the character of the act itself. NFP does not. Both can be used as **birth control **but NFP is not contraceptive. Birth control does not equal contraception.

It’s not the Church saying NFP isn’t contraceptive; it’s the English language. It doesn’t meet the definition.

 

[Curious_Seed]

If the contraceptive nature of NFP was as clear as you proclaim, the Church would not have declared it otherwise.

If the issue were one of clarity, then no judgment should result; but, the Church has judged, and that judgment is that NFP is non-contraceptive.

So, if clarity is not a factor, then there must be other considerations in deeming something as non-contraceptive which clearly is.

 

[Curious_Seed]

No, it clearly isn’t. NFP does nothing to change **the act **of having sex into one that has will not result in a pregnancy.

Contraceptives alter the character of the act itself. NFP does not. Both can be used as **birth control **but NFP is not contraceptive. Birth control does not equal contraception.

It’s not the Church saying NFP isn’t contraceptive; it’s the English language. It doesn’t meet the definition.

Birth control is control of conception by prevention.

So, birth control is interchangeable with contraception.

Intent of IUDs and NFP is identical - to prevent conception.

 

[Corki]

Birth control is control of conception by prevention.

English, please.

**Birth control **is limiting (or increasing) the number of children you have. Birth control can be accomplished in many different ways, including contraception.

So, birth control is interchangeable with contraception.

No, contraception is a subset of birth control. “Contraception” is changing the result **of the marital act **in order to make it infertile.

It’s as if you are saying that water is a drink so all drinks must be water. No, water is a subset of all drinks.

Intent of IUDs and NFP is identical - to prevent conception.

Intent is only one of the moral dimensions. Sleeping in separate bedrooms might also have the intent or effect of preventing another child but that isn’t contraception either.

Where you may be getting confused is that it is possible to use NFP for the wrong reasons. If you do, you may be sinning. It is impossible, however, to contracept for the right reasons. It is always sinful.

 

[Curious_Seed]

A rose is a rose, by any other name.

NFP is a means for contraception, by any other name.

The English is plain enough, for those who refuse to be accused of being confused.

 

[Corki]

A rose is a rose, by any other name.

NFP is a means for contraception, by any other name.

The English is plain enough, for those who refuse to be accused of being confused.

I am not sure why you give the “thumbs up” sign and then argue against me.

I sense that English may not be your first language. “Contra” means to work against. “Ception” in this use, means conception. Something is a contra-ceptive when it has an action that works against conception. Birthcontrol pills, condoms, “pulling out” all act against conception within the context of the marital act.

NFP does not. It does not have any action at all during the marital act. NFP is a plan - a plan for family size and spacing. It is no more “contraceptive” to plan to have sex during the less fertile times of the month (or the more fertile if using NFP to try to conceive) than it is to plan to have sex on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

NFP can be used just as easily to help a couple who is trying to have a child as to delay the birth of another child. A contraception can’t do that because it’s action is “contra” - against.

 

[Curious_Seed]

I am not sure why you give the “thumbs up” sign and then argue against me.

I sense that English may not be your first language. “Contra” means to work against. “Ception” in this use, means conception. Something is a contra-ceptive when it has an action that works against conception. Birthcontrol pills, condoms, “pulling out” all act against conception within the context of the marital act.

NFP does not. It does not have any action at all during the marital act. NFP is a plan - a plan for family size and spacing. It is no more “contraceptive” to plan to have sex during the less fertile times of the month (or the more fertile if using NFP to try to conceive) than it is to plan to have sex on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

NFP can be used just as easily to help a couple who is trying to have a child as to delay the birth of another child. A contraception can’t do that because it’s action is “contra” - against.

For those who hold that NFP is not contraceptive, I respectfully disagree.

The very act of planning makes it contraceptive, with intentions as purposeful as those using IUDs.

If there were no intention of contraception, then counting fertile and less fertile days would be unnecessary.

NFP would be unnecessary.

But, if contraception is required because family size is to be limited, and one chooses NFP, then it is because one believes that is the means to prevent pregnancy.

NFP is clearly contraceptive, regardless of any sophism used to shill the truth.