The Purpose of Marriage

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

**No, she obviously doesn’t know Christ. **

But you said earlier in post # 462 (page 31) there are no doctrines in your church. Are you now saying it’s a doctrine that you have to know Christ? If so, how do you define knowing Christ? Obeying all his doctrines?

 

[inocente]

inocente

**No, she obviously doesn’t know Christ. **

But you said there are no doctrines in your church. Are you now saying it’s a doctrine that you have to know Christ? If so, how do you define knowing Christ? Obeying all his doctrines?

Looks like you missed my post #528 to you.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Let’s not forget the Jews, who pre-dated Catholicism. It was the Jews who determined that the Torah was the Word of God; it was the Jews who quoted authoritatively from the book of Psalms, or Proverbs.

Only in a very qualified sense can we say that the Jews “determined” the Torah. Even according to Jewish tradition, it was rather Moses, at God’s behest, who did or is cited as the authority who made the Torah authoritative: i.e., ultimately it was God who made the Torah authoritative. The Torah is understood as a magnificent gift of God. The Jews certainly did not “determine” the Decalogue, for example, or what the Prophets preached, prophesied and wrote.

[The Jews] knew all of these [aforementioned] things, before the Roman Catholic Church existed; in fact, the Roman Catholic Church is indebted to the Jews for these texts

That’s a matter of interpretation.

On a Christian reading, Genesis is a prophecy of Christ: His Life, His Gospel and His Bride, the Church: i.e. all Creation points to or is ordered to or is for the sake of Christ and His Church. That is to say, the account of Creation prophesies the New Creation in Christ.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

Generally the only question you are asked, just before being baptized, is “do you accept Christ as your personal savior?”. That’s the only doctrine/creed I was ever asked to formally commit to, everything else is based around those personal relationships.

How can you have a personal relationship with Jesus without knowing and obeying all his commands? That means obeying all his doctrines. That means you have to identify his doctrines in order to obey them, don’t you.

How can one be an American without obeying the doctrines in the Constitution?

How can one be a Christian without obeying the doctrines in the Gospels?

And how can you obey them if you have not identified them as doctrines?

 

[mek42]

inocente

Generally the only question you are asked, just before being baptized, is “do you accept Christ as your personal savior?”. That’s the only doctrine/creed I was ever asked to formally commit to, everything else is based around those personal relationships.

How can you have a personal relationship with Jesus without knowing and obeying all his commands? That means obeying all his doctrines. That means you have to identify his doctrines in order to obey them, don’t you.

How can one be an American without obeying the doctrines in the Constitution?

How can one be a Christian without obeying the doctrines in the Gospels?

And how can you obey them if you have not identified them as doctrines?

A great many people are Americans without obeying US doctrines. Just look at our overflowing prison population to find a bunch of them.

 

[inocente]

How can you have a personal relationship with Jesus without knowing and obeying all his commands? That means obeying all his doctrines. That means you have to identify his doctrines in order to obey them, don’t you.

How can one be an American without obeying the doctrines in the Constitution?

How can one be a Christian without obeying the doctrines in the Gospels?

And how can you obey them if you have not identified them as doctrines?

To me it’s nothing like obeying the constitution.

You don’t think of your relationship with a friend in terms of having to obey doctrines, you do what you think is right by him because you want to. Same with Jesus, he’s your friend not a rule book, you’re his friend not a slave.

He said we’re his friends if we “love each other as I have loved you”. That’s not legalistic or prescriptive, you can’t turn love into rules.

I’d have thought that fits well with Catholicism too - catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=46181

 

[stewstew03]

I’m saying that at the end of the day Jesus asks us, “Who do you say that I am?” Not “who does the Catholic Church say I am?” Just as he asked his disciples.

Josh - unless he appeared to you personally, as he did to the disciples, then that question is asked of you through the Church. So, the Catholic Church is asking you “Who do you say Jesus is?”

If Jesus were to appear to you, how would you know that it was he, without the authority of the Catholic Church? and how does the CC determine what is the inspired Word of God?

Jesus has not appeared to me personally, but I have experienced Christ Crucified through the OHCAC.

The disciples didn’t have the authority of the CC to refer to, even worse they had the authority of the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees telling them that Jesus was a false prophet. However all the signs, miracles and truths pointed to Jesus as the Son of God, all pointed to Jesus as the truth, the way and the life.

Okay – I don’t have any disagreement here. But, just to be clear, what is your understanding of the Primacy of Peter?

The question is, would you recognise him today without the authority of the CC telling you it was him?

Josh - what is the purpose of a Church? What is the purpose of evangelism? Would you know Christ without the evangel?

You continue to divide/separate Christ from His Body (the Church). This is a fruitless exercise…

 

[mek42]

Josh - unless he appeared to you personally, as he did to the disciples, then that question is asked of you through the Church. So, the Catholic Church is asking you “Who do you say Jesus is?”

Jesus has not appeared to me personally, but I have experienced Christ Crucified through the OHCAC.

Okay – I don’t have any disagreement here. But, just to be clear, what is your understanding of the Primacy of Peter?

Josh - what is the purpose of a Church? What is the purpose of evangelism? Would you know Christ without the evangel?

You continue to divide/separate Christ from His Body (the Church). This is a fruitless exercise…

Why is it fruitless to attempt to sort out an apparent disagreement between two brothers?

It seems like Josh is sharing with us one of his pearls of faith from his heart. It should not be the case here, of all places, that said pearls end up cast unto swine.

Lastly, I am getting a bit confused. If you say that the Church is Christ, does that imply that the Church is God?

 

[mek42]

It was permitted by the culture, yes.

But permitted by God? Nope.

EDIT: In one sense, of course, all events are “permitted” by God. Including fratricide, genocide, adultery, etc. They could not happen without God’s permissive will.

However, to assume that polygamy is sanctioned by God, not so much.

If God did not prohibit the practice in His law, then the practice is permitted.

Let me ask this way, does God permit Jews to eat beef according to the Law?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente
**
He said we’re his friends if we “love each other as I have loved you”. **

That’s not a doctrine either?

 

[stewstew03]

Why is it fruitless to attempt to sort out an apparent disagreement between two brothers?

It seems like Josh is sharing with us one of his pearls of faith from his heart. It should not be the case here, of all places, that said pearls end up cast unto swine.

Lastly, I am getting a bit confused. If you say that the Church is Christ, does that imply that the Church is God?

Goodness gracious, mek… the “fruitless exercise” comment was in relation to trying to separate Jesus from the Body of Christ.

 

[stewstew03]

…

Lastly, I am getting a bit confused. If you say that the Church is Christ, does that imply that the Church is God?

The Church is the Body of Christ, and the Church is the Bride of Christ. The two are one. There is no divorce.

 

[mek42]

The Church is the Body of Christ, and the Church is the Bride of Christ. The two are one. There is no divorce.

So, logically, the Church is God?

 

[stewstew03]

So, logically, the Church is God?

The Church is part of God’s family.

 

[slalom5]

Welcome to CAF.

Why wouldn’t you recognize the Deuterocanon as inspired? Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit lead you to know/recognize the word?

I mean “you” as in “you who do not accept the Catholic canon.”

Guess I thought he was saying that the CC was the ultimate authority and that no other source ( as is HS) is needed. And that no one would recognize it without this source. Not trying to argue - guess I just misunderstood.

Oh… and hello to you too!

 

[PRmerger]

I have never read them, so I don’t know.

But you do see the problem with your paradigm, yes?

Saying that you know something is theopneustos because it has miracles and signs opens up a whole bunch of religious texts as being the Word of God.

You say you know the Gospels to be the inspired Word of God only because the CC tells you so.

Yes. And that quote comes from St. Augustine, and is quoted in our Catechism, josh.

" Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so."–St. Augustine.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you believe the Gospels are the inspired Word of God, or has the CC told you this about them?

So if I present a list of random quotes–some from the Bible, some from other sources–you’d be able to tell us (without consulting Father Google ) which ones are theopneustos and which ones are not? Just based on how your spirit responds to these quotes?

 

[PRmerger]

I believe the Gospels are the inspired Word of God and therefore I am Catholic, because they currently teach and practice the fullness of the truth including the Gospels (e.g. such as the absolute truth to the Holy Eucharist).

It’s not -

I’m Catholic and therefore that’s why I believe the Gospels are the inspired Word of God etc.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

I don’t think you’re understanding the concept. You’re using Gospels here to mean: the teachings of the good news of revelation. And when you accept the message of the good news, you accept the Church.

I absolutely agree with this paradigm. If by Gospels you mean “good news of God’s revelation”.

However, I am using Gospels here to mean: the actual books/letters.

You would have no idea which of the over 400 ancient Christian books/letters are the Word of God and which are not.

You need the Catholic Church to tell you this.

There is NO OTHER WAY, save by submitting to the authority of the CC.

 

[PRmerger]

Everything is done on a personal basis, and you don’t get invited to join the church until those who know you (and your pastor) believe you’re ready

Based on what?

Christ.

I don’t know what this means.

What criteria do you and your pastor use to determine whether a person is “ready” to join your Baptist church?

 

[PRmerger]

No, she obviously doesn’t know Christ.

She says she does.

Who are you to judge her and say that she can’t join your church and still profess her white supremacist dogmas? That seems to be exactly contrary to what you have stated earlier that all are welcome as long as they profess Jesus as savior.

What you are doing, in excluding a white supremacist for her beliefs is, well, being very Catholic in stating that there are indeed some truths to which you must assent in order to align yourself with Christ.

It would appear that your church does indeed have some doctrines besides professing Jesus as savior by which someone must align herself in order to be a member?