The Purpose of Marriage

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Is it wrong, according to the Roman Catholic creed, to marry without the intention of reproducing? If so, I am wondering whether it is therefore wrong for infertile couples to marry, or for Catholics to marry past childbearing age?
 
I read a piece on here where the basic terms “mum” and “dad” were removed (from somewhere can’t remember where though) becuase it was discrimination,
I’d have to know more about the situation to be able to comment on that.
I believe the next step will be to indoctrine the next generation of society with it and when the Church doesn’t budge, it will pitch the state against the Church, because how can you establish a fundamental right (the right for same sex couples to marry) and not enforce this right?
A church (or “the Church”) isn’t necessary for two people to be able to get married in the USA. I have no familiarity with the laws in your country though. There’s a case going on in England right now but as far as I know it’s litigation between the Church of England and two individuals (a couple vs the State Church). Not sure if that fits your concern. If it does you may want to watch how it develops.
Interesting.

What was the question you asked them?
I described for them the contents of the book that contained the multiple configurations of families and asked them what their thoughts were on schools presenting these various arrangements of people as “Family.” The Atlanta area seems to have enough gays such that public displays of same sex affection isn’t unusual. The street at which my employer is located has a gay pride parade every year, is down the street from some homosexual friendly churches, and a stone throw away from a gay bar.
 
Is it wrong, according to the Roman Catholic creed, to marry without the intention of reproducing? If so, I am wondering whether it is therefore wrong for infertile couples to marry, or for Catholics to marry past childbearing age?
Sounds like you are asking about the “Sacrament of Marriage.” Here’s a partial reply from a previous message in this thread. See the original reply for more information.
…]To be a part of the Sacrament of Matrimony at least on[e] of the participants of the wedding must be Catholic and the other at least a Christian. Non-Christians can’t participate in the Sacrament of Matrimony. Marriage with a non-Christian or unbaptized person is considered a natural marriage. The participants of the wedding must intend to remain married until death, open to the possibility of children, and not intend to engage in adultery. …]
From what I understand (some one please correct me if I am wrong) if you decide you don’t want to have kids and abstain from having sex that’s okay. But if you have sex you must not resort to the use of oral contraceptives, condoms, or other items with the intention of preventing pregnancy. There’s some other details (ex: the use of oral contraceptives for addressing a medical problem and not with the intention of preventing pregnancy can be okay-ed). If you are unable to have kids by no fault of your own it is just that (not your fault) and won’t prevent you from being able to get married.
 
Is it wrong, according to the Roman Catholic creed, to marry without the intention of reproducing? If so, I am wondering whether it is therefore wrong for infertile couples to marry, or for Catholics to marry past childbearing age?
No, it’s not.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
A church (or “the Church”) isn’t necessary for two people to be able to get married in the USA. I have no familiarity with the laws in your country though. There’s a case going on in England right now but as far as I know it’s litigation between the Church of England and two individuals (a couple vs the State Church). Not sure if that fits your concern. If it does you may want to watch how it develops.
Yea that was the case I was thinking of.

Most people will say “They can’t do that because of freedom of religion” etc etc however if enough people want something, than it can be done, it will be just under a different name or discription, for example, in the case your talking about, they describe it as attacking the “State” Church.

I believe they wont directly persecute the Church, just idirectly and discreetly persecute the Church. But like I said, we can only wait and see what happens, because I don’t know how far they will try and go.
I described for them the contents of the book that contained the multiple configurations of families and asked them what their thoughts were on schools presenting these various arrangements of people as “Family.” The Atlanta area seems to have enough gays such that public displays of same sex affection isn’t unusual. The street at which my employer is located has a gay pride parade every year, is down the street from some homosexual friendly churches, and a stone throw away from a gay bar.
My thoughts are that I don’t like it, but I wouldn’t remove my kids from schools or go to WWIII or anything over it, I would simply teach my kids what a marriage really was and how these people have simply got it disasterously wrong.

Now if homosexuality was introduced into something like “sex education” I would be very uncomfortable with that, but I don’t know how teachers would even teach a miss use of the body like sodomy anyway. What would they teach? “Look kids in sex education there is no right/wrong answer, just do what ever feels good” ?
From what I understand (some one please correct me if I am wrong) if you decide you don’t want to have kids and abstain from having sex that’s okay. But if you have sex you must not resort to the use of oral contraceptives, condoms, or other items with the intention of preventing pregnancy. There’s some other details (ex: the use of oral contraceptives for addressing a medical problem and not with the intention of preventing pregnancy can be okay-ed). If you are unable to have kids by no fault of your own it is just that (not your fault) and won’t prevent you from being able to get married.
That sounds right.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Most people will say “They can’t do that because of freedom of religion”
I wasn’t going to say that at all. People can file legal complaints for w wide spectrum of things. Though suing some one doesn’t mean the court will hear the case (at least not in the USA). Hashing out the details here probably doesn’t matter much since we aren’t in the same country.
My thoughts are that I don’t like it, but I wouldn’t remove my kids from schools or go to WWIII or anything over it, I would simply teach my kids what a marriage really was and how these people have simply got it disasterously wrong.
From what I recall the book never mentioned marriage.
Now if homosexuality was introduced into something like “sex education” I would be very uncomfortable with that, but I don’t know how teachers would even teach a miss use of the body like sodomy anyway.
You may want to check your region’s rules on teaching it. Where I live homosexuality may be covered in a health and sex class but discussion on whether or not it is acceptable is prohibited. In some other counties homosexuality may only be discussed in conjunction with STDs. One of the neighboring counties has with a more “liberal” policy has the following in its rules:

Homosexuality is not to be promoted or taught as an accepted alternate lifestyle. In dealing with homosexuality it should be emphasized that homosexual acts are not the result of genetic or hormonal abnormalities, but rather the decision and choice of the individual. While some people may have a stronger tendency toward homosexuality because of their background and environment, it should be emphasized that the act of homosexuality is a choice and experimenting with homosexuality is not a normal
part of growing up.


Seems the rules vary significantly over some short distances.
What would they teach? “Look kids in sex education there is no right/wrong answer, just do what ever feels good” ?
The region policies on sex education for where you live may be able to answer that question too.
 
Is it wrong, according to the Roman Catholic creed, to marry without the intention of reproducing? If so, I am wondering whether it is therefore wrong for infertile couples to marry, or for Catholics to marry past childbearing age?
Yes, it is wrong to marry with the idea that you do not want to procreate.

Infertile couples may not be able to procreate, but as long as the marital embrace is ordered towards procreation, it is a moral act.
 
Yes, it is wrong to marry with the idea that you do not want to procreate.

Infertile couples may not be able to procreate, but as long as the marital embrace is ordered towards procreation, it is a moral act.
opps, I said no.

Is it because if they enter into a marriage with the idea they don’t want to procreate, it would lead to sexual immorality or the use of contraceptives etc?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I wasn’t going to say that at all.
I mean other people have said it.
People can file legal complaints for w wide spectrum of things. Though suing some one doesn’t mean the court will hear the case (at least not in the USA). Hashing out the details here probably doesn’t matter much since we aren’t in the same country.
Yea, true. I guess we will have to just see how it plays out.

“Give me the patience to endure that which cannot be changed, the courage to change that which should be changed and the wisdom to know the difference.” - Oliver J. Hart
From what I recall the book never mentioned marriage.
Oh okay, talking about ‘marriage’ I would also be able to cover the ‘family’ as well I think.
You may want to check your region’s rules on teaching it. Where I live homosexuality may be covered in a health and sex class but discussion on whether or not it is acceptable is prohibited. In some other counties homosexuality may only be discussed in conjunction with STDs. One of the neighboring counties has with a more “liberal” policy has the following in its rules:

Homosexuality is not to be promoted or taught as an accepted alternate lifestyle. In dealing with homosexuality it should be emphasized that homosexual acts are not the result of genetic or hormonal abnormalities, but rather the decision and choice of the individual. While some people may have a stronger tendency toward homosexuality because of their background and environment, it should be emphasized that the act of homosexuality is a choice and experimenting with homosexuality is not a normal
part of growing up.


Seems the rules vary significantly over some short distances.

The region policies on sex education for where you live may be able to answer that question too.
I wouldn’t know where to go in order to find out.

Anyway, I think this that you quoted is spot on -

Homosexuality is not to be promoted or taught as an accepted alternate lifestyle. In dealing with homosexuality it should be emphasized that homosexual acts are not the result of genetic or hormonal abnormalities, but rather the decision and choice of the individual. While some people may have a stronger tendency toward homosexuality because of their background and environment, it should be emphasized that the act of homosexuality is a choice and experimenting with homosexuality is not a normal
part of growing up.


God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Hello folks.

I long for a (non-existing :=) wonderful woman who is kind, loving, funny,witty (and not too ugly 🙂 )

If I marry her, we will care for each other, laugh and wine together, be delighted by our strengths and compassionate about our weaknesses,

Sex can only be valuable and wonderful in such a frame, where one should strive towards unconditional love, similar to God’s love.

And if one has the change to have children, one has to show them through one’s behavior how it looks like to follow the Son of Man everyday.

Lovely greetings from Germany.
Liebe Grüsse aus Deutschland.

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
 
Anyway, I think this that you quoted is spot on -
I decided to see what I could find on the matter for your country. I chose the NSW region since I understand that to be the most populated one (I can easily be wrong here). This is what I found.
NSW Department of Education and Training:
…]Children and young people’s attitudes towards other people and level of acceptance of diversity are developed by observing and copying the behaviours they see, particularly of the adults around them. Therefore negative attitudes towards same-sex attracted people, which may be presented from the earliest age, can impact on the views of children. Primary schooling is a critical phase in developing positive and non-discriminatory views relating to same-sex attracted people in our society…]

In the past, education programs have virtually ignored talking about same-sex attracted people or presented images which have been negative or stereotypical. Some people report the absence of any positive references or images of same-sex attracted people in their entire schooling. Current educational programs in NSW seek to address this shortcoming and government schools are encouraged to address homophobia and same-sex attracted issues through PDHPE programs and whole-school welfare programs. While secondary schools have more opportunities for explicit teaching of same-sex attracted issues through their sexuality programs with adolescents, primary schools are a critical factor in challenging attitudes early in life and promoting a more accepting and diverse society. Sexuality education also provides an appropriate context for addressing discrimination and sexual harassment issues which are an increasing problem in our society…]

curriculumsupport.education.nsw.gov.au/primary/pdhpe/growth/sexed005.htm
 
I decided to see what I could find on the matter for your country. I chose the NSW region since I understand that to be the most populated one (I can easily be wrong here). This is what I found.
A couple of questions to the group on this topic:

----the most noteworthy marriage in history, that between Mary and Joseph, was never consummated and I believe there was never any intention to consummate the marriage in its sexual aspect. Please explain the morality of this, from a Catholic viewpoint – is it a case of “special dispensation” on the part of God?

----my understanding is that one of the fundamental reasons why test tube babies or “in vitro fertilization” is considered immoral is that procreation and sexuality cannot morally be separated from each other. Please explain why the virgin birth would not be considered a violation of natural moral law – namely, of the prohibition against the deliberate separation of sexuality from procreation.

The only explanation I can think of is, “if God does it, it’s okay” (which isn’t particularly satisfying to me and reminds of that famous line from Richard Nixon: “it’s okay if the president does it”); nor does it seem to be setting a clear moral example.

This question occurred to me because I had read of a grandmother who recently gave birth to her own grandchildren (twin daughters, I believe), acting as a surrogate for her own daughter. Many would view this as a “small miracle”, a celebration of life (the girls are cute, and seemingly in good health) yet my understanding is that Catholicism would consider this to be immoral, just as any human-originated virgin birth – or, more generally, procreation without sex – if such a thing were possible, would be immoral. Yet a violation of natural law – a virgin birth, a triumphant separation of sexuality from procreation, of the act of sex from the act of the conception of life – is one of the very cornerstones of the Incarnation.

Insofar as posters on this thread have been considering the question of marriage vis-a-vis sexuality – and whether the two can ever be separated, as they seemingly were in Mary and Joseph’s marriage - -these questions suddenly occurred to me.
 
A couple of questions to the group on this topic:

----the most noteworthy marriage in history, that between Mary and Joseph, was never consummated and I believe there was never any intention to consummate the marriage in its sexual aspect. Please explain the morality of this, from a Catholic viewpoint – is it a case of “special dispensation” on the part of God?
Marriage is “moral” when mutual matrimonial consent is exchanged. Consummation is not required.
 
----my understanding is that one of the fundamental reasons why test tube babies or “in vitro fertilization” is considered immoral is that procreation and sexuality cannot morally be separated from each other. Please explain why the virgin birth would not be considered a violation of natural moral law – namely, of the prohibition against the deliberate separation of sexuality from procreation.
Because this was not an example of procreation, but rather of incarnation.
 
I decided to see what I could find on the matter for your country. I chose the NSW region since I understand that to be the most populated one (I can easily be wrong here). This is what I found.
NSW Department of Education and Training:
*…]Children and young people’s attitudes towards other people and level of acceptance of diversity are developed by observing and copying the behaviours they see, particularly of the adults around them. Therefore negative attitudes towards same-sex attracted people, which may be presented from the earliest age, can impact on the views of children. Primary schooling is a critical phase in developing positive and non-discriminatory views relating to same-sex attracted people in our society…]

In the past, education programs have virtually ignored talking about same-sex attracted people or presented images which have been negative or stereotypical. Some people report the absence of any positive references or images of same-sex attracted people in their entire schooling. Current educational programs in NSW seek to address this shortcoming and government schools are encouraged to address homophobia and same-sex attracted issues through PDHPE programs and whole-school welfare programs. While secondary schools have more opportunities for explicit teaching of same-sex attracted issues through their sexuality programs with adolescents, primary schools are a critical factor in challenging attitudes early in life and promoting a more accepting and diverse society. Sexuality education also provides an appropriate context for addressing discrimination and sexual harassment issues which are an increasing problem in our society…] *
Thank you. I think you found the right one, I’m from NSW.

You can tell whoever set this up certainly has an agenda.

They say “Being inclusive of same-sex attracted people and managing homophobia.”

That would be good if it wasn’t for the agenda in doing so, which presents the sexual acts of homosexuality as a moral and normal varient of sexuality.

My worry is the word “homophopia” because we all know how the LGBT agenda likes to throw that word around, in other words, “homophobic” is now anyone who doesn’t accept the sexual acts of homosexuality (such lifestyle) as a moral and embraced varient of sexuality.

This was one of their points to emphasise - *In primary schools, there are opportunities when teaching sexuality, to be inclusive of same-sex attracted people and issues by:
  • using inclusive language when discussing social and emotional changes during adolescence to acknowledge that some students may be attracted to the same sex, e.g. using the term partners instead of boyfriend and girlfriend or husband and wife.*
I ask myself, what on earth people are thinking? This is the first step I believe to destroying the family.

Like Ravi said, I wouldn’t mess with the foundations of good thinking, especially when it comes to the Christian understanding of marriage and family, because I believe the family is the corner stone to society, as the family erodes, so will society.

And as G.K. Chesterton said -

“Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.” - G.K. Chesterton

This is such a shame 😦 mainly because of the sexual immorality it’s going to indoctrine the next generation with and because before anyone else can get to them and educate them on sexuality and sexual immorality, the first thing every young child will be taught, will be to embrace their sexuality without regard for whether it is right or wrong, without regard for sexual morality, because secular society wants to tell people that anything they sexually desire is perfectly ‘okay’ to act on.

Sorry for the rant. It’s just that this is going to harm so many young kids in such disasterous ways, their only saving grace will be if these kids have another role model in their life (such as parents if their plugged in) to teach them correctly (on sexual morality).

I believe It’s kind of like how Hitler indoctrined the next generation with prejudice toward the Jews, they will indoctrine the next generation with sexual immorality and indirectly with prejudice toward those who teach sexual morality such as the Church.

I will simply remind myself of this quote -

*“Give me the patience to endure that which cannot be changed, the courage to change that which should be changed, and the wisdom to know the difference.” *- Oliver J. Hart

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
-I ask myself, what on earth people are thinking? This is the first step I believe to destroying the family.
I don’t think that’s hat they are thinking. It may be motivated by trying to get every one to get along.
Like Ravi said, I wouldn’t mess with the foundations of good thinking, especially when it comes to the Christian understanding of marriage and family, because I believe the family is the corner stone to society, as the family erodes, so will society.
I am also not sure that it will frequently be seen as messing with the foundations of good thinking.
This is such a shame 😦 mainly because of the sexual immorality it’s going to indoctrine the next generation with and because before anyone else can get to them and educate them on sexuality and sexual immorality
Who would “anyone else” potentially be?
 
Insofar as posters on this thread have been considering the question of marriage vis-a-vis sexuality – and whether the two can ever be separated,
I can only answer that in respect to civil marriage. And I don’t think that civil marriage is inseparably bound with sex or commitment, as there have certainly been couples that have engaged in unions that have some but not all of these elements. During time periods in which there were laws that prevented people from being able to get married (ex:people that were not of the same racial classification before such marriages were allowed) there were people that engaged in sex and commitment without marriage. I’ve also had coworkers or other associates that were committed to a significant other for years to over a decade without getting a civil marriage. There are people that engage in marriage and sex without commitment to each other. And there have been people that have married and are committed to each other without interacting sexually.
 
I don’t think that’s what they are thinking. It may be motivated by trying to get every one to get along.
By teaching kids that anything they sexually desire is perfectly okay to act on? By teaching kids that it’s discrimination to use the term mum, dad, boyfriend or girlfriend? that the normal family structure rooted in our natural design itself is no longer the “normal” and is discrimination to claim that it is? at some point I believe people will have to eventually realise that moral relativism is a sham.

They might be trying to do that, but I believe the way they are trying to do it is disasterously wrong and the reprecussions of this when the next generation come through will be far-reaching.
I am also not sure that it will frequently be seen as messing with the foundations of good thinking.
Why is that?
Who would “anyone else” potentially be?
Exactly that, any good man or woman who has the good sense to correct them, to say “Just because we desire something doesn’t make it right to act on, everybody has immoral desires and our desires are not who we are, we make that choice.”

*“Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey ‘people.’ People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war… Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of the rest.” *- C.S. Lewis

It is this which separates us from animals.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
By teaching kids that anything they sexually desire is perfectly okay to act on?
"Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey ‘people.’
That doesn’t seem to be what is being taught. In the case of the educational guidelines that I found for NSW while it seems the parameters are expanded from what they had been it’s not in the realm of “anything.” “Anything” would be inclusive of some other -philias that I dare not mention here. Nor does it appear to me that they are saying “Obey your instincts.”
By teaching kids that it’s discrimination to use the term mum, dad, boyfriend or girlfriend?
I’ve heard that mentioned here, but I’ve never been acquainted with any relevant scenarios in which the use of such terms was considered discriminatory. The non-relevant cases I found include the term “mom” being used to express something other than a maternal relationship or some one being fired for breast feeding at work. As for boy friend and girl friend I haven’t heard those terms used at all beyond TV. Instead I hear phrases like “the guy I"m dating” or “the girl I’m talking too”
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ThinkingSapien:
I am also not sure that it will frequently be seen as messing with the foundations of good thinking.
Why is that?
Keep in mind I am answering that from the perspective of the changes that have occurred in the USA. My knowledge of the social changes in Australian culture is significantly less. In the USA the more typical arrangement of adults is living single. 22% of american adults were single in the 1950s and being single was more common in western states. Today it’s about 47% in the USA[1]. I’m interpreting that as a decline of interest in forming a nuclear family (among other things), though these people are not necessarily disinterested in being in a relationship. In Australia over the past 20 years there seems to have been an increase in unmarried cohabitation and births without marriage. (22% unmarried births in the 1990s to 34% in 2010[2]). This appears to be indicative of a change of culture and the “good thinking” as you’ve labeled it may been seen as the ideas of the previous cultural state. These individuals would first need to hold the conviction that “this is good thinking” before concluding that some one is messing with “good thinking.”

There’s a book called “Going Solo” in which the author talks about some of the other cultural changes that may be contributors (including rising status of women, changes in how corporations treat people, so on). His concentration is the USA, but he doesn’t strictly limit what he presents to the USA.
Exactly that, any good man or woman who has the good sense to correct them, to say “Just because we desire something doesn’t make it right to act on, everybody has immoral desires and our desires are not who we are, we make that choice.”
I can think of examples of people that would agree with the above while not sharing the same moral judgements; there are some differences in what these people might label as moral and what you might.

[1] - There are 112 million unmarried people over age 18 in the U.S., representing nearly 47% of the adult population. U.S. Census Bureau. (as of 2012). 18 years of age is the age of consent in USA and the marker for which individuals are treated as adults. I think it’s lower in Australia.

[2] - Australian Bureau of Statistics
 
I’ll take note you’ve said this. I’ve not spoken on morality in my previous message though. Since you brought up the topic I suspect some of the parents will take care of teaching their children what their moral evaluation is on the other family structures.
Do you believe the purpose of marriage is amoral, i.e. neither good nor evil?
 
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