The Purpose of Marriage

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inocente

**So, DON’T make rash judgments, DON’T bare false witness, DON’T act in hate, DON’T make things worse by trying to pretend you did nothing wrong. **

You’ll never agree or admit that Paul was right in condemning sodomy. :rolleyes:

Rant on, rant on. ;)😃

Still waiting for you to cite a Baptist publication that endorses sodomy or same-sex marriage.
After several chances you’ve still not produced one shred of evidence for your shameful slander that I “attacked St Paul” and am “defending the devil’s own work”. Last chance, either post your evidence, retract, or there’ll be no choice but to conclude it’s a pack of lies.

You also conveniently ignored what I said about Romans. I say you are misrepresenting Paul by quoting verses out of context. Make your case that Paul is saying all gays and lesbians, Catholic or otherwise, worship “a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles” and have “become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.”

As for Baptists, it is a principle that we are each free and competent to make our own moral and spiritual decisions, which includes the question of equal marriage. If you’d looked, you’d have found the (American) Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists, they may have an affiliate church in your area. - awab.org/mission-and-vision.html
 
inocente
**
As for Baptists, it is a principle that we are each free and competent to make our own moral and spiritual decisions, which includes the question of equal marriage. If you’d looked, you’d have found the (American) Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists, they may have an affiliate church in your area. -**

What makes you free and competent? Where does it say in the bible that you are free and competent to make your own spiritual decisions? Rather, Paul says you must believe what has been preached and avoid those who teach other than what has been preached.

Do you agree with Paul that sodomy is evil? Yes or no? If you are going to say you are free to disagree with Paul, where does Paul say that you are free to disagree with what he has preached? This is what he has preached.

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. (Romans)

Do you agree with Paul that sodomy is perverse? If you agree, all you have to say is yes. If you disagree, you have to explain why you are right and Paul is wrong, and where you got the authority and are “free and competent” to say that you are right and Paul must be wrrong.

But you are obstinate in your refusal to answer the question, so simple to answer if you agree with Paul. What am I supposed to infer other than that you disagree with Paul but you have no clue how to justify your opposition to Paul?

Please try to rise above your chronic reliance on ad hominems.
 
…]Where does it say in the bible that you are free and competent to make your own spiritual decisions?..]
Why limit the writings to the bible? Doesn’t Catholicism also have traditions and practices that are not spelled out in the Bible? You might end up missing out on some of the traditions, practices, and beliefs of other denominations if consideration is restricted only to what is written in the Bible.
 
**Why limit the writings to the bible? Doesn’t Catholicism also have traditions and practices that are not spelled out in the Bible? You might end up missing out on some of the traditions, practices, and beliefs of other denominations if consideration is restricted only to what is written in the Bible. **

Catholicism does not say we are “free and competent” to interpret the Bible as we wish.

That way lies theological madness and mayhem. Look at the theological chaos inside the Protestant world. About all they can agree on is that they are “free and competent.” There must be an authoritative voice to interpret Scripture correctly. It cannot be just any theological amateur’s “free and competent” voice.
 
Catholicism does not say we are “free and competent” to interpret the Bible as we wish.
Okay. I wasn’t saying that it does or does not. It’s not that claim that I was asking about, but the restricting parameter that was put on the request for support of that claim.

I think it would be more balanced, since Catholicism also has traditions and texts that are not part of the Bible, to not restrict some one of another Christian denomination to not use sources outside of the Bible to to express or explain his or her religious practices. Imagine some one asking you to explain something about Catholicism but asking you to only use the Bible in your answer (but not the CCC, Sacred Tradition, or any other source).
 
**I think it would be more balanced, since Catholicism also has traditions and texts that are not part of the Bible, to not restrict some one of another Christian denomination to not use sources outside of the Bible to to express or explain his or her religious practices. Imagine some one asking you to explain something about Catholicism but asking you to only use the Bible in your answer (but not the CCC, Sacred Tradition, or any other source). **

If I was talking to someone not of my faith convictions, and we were talking about sodomy and same-sex marriage, for example, there are other paths to the truth that we might mutually pursue.

One of those paths might be the universal disgust of sodomy (except for sodomites, of course, who perversely revel in it. One has to go no farther back than Plato and Aristotle for ancient authorities who viewed sodomy as perverse. The American Psychiatric Association, until sometime in the 80s I believe, classified homosexuality as a mental illness, and only reversed itself following the advent of political correctness.

Another avenue might be the appeal to common sense. What is one man’s penis doing inside another man’s anus (or mouth, for that matter)? Are those organs made for each other or for something else?

Another approach might be to point to the general decline in sexual morals over the last century. Many of us who lived in an era of nobler morals see sodomy right down at the bottom of the barrel along with pedophilia and bestiality. This appeal to reason will be written off by moral relativists as old fashioned. I for one yearn for the day when moral relativism will be written off as old fashioned. 😃
 
What makes you free and competent? Where does it say in the bible that you are free and competent to make your own spiritual decisions? Rather, Paul says you must believe what has been preached and avoid those who teach other than what has been preached.
The Baptist core principles of religious freedom hold that each individual is free in conscience to meet God without imposition of creed, or interference of clergy/government; that churches are free to determine their own membership and leadership; that everyone should have free access to scripture and to all scholarly tools.

See for instance Shurden’s The Baptist Identity: Four Fragile Freedoms
*Do you agree with Paul that sodomy is evil? Yes or no? If you are going to say you are free to disagree with Paul, where does Paul say that you are free to disagree with what he has preached? This is what he has preached.
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. (Romans)
Do you agree with Paul that sodomy is perverse? If you agree, all you have to say is yes. If you disagree, you have to explain why you are right and Paul is wrong, and where you got the authority and are “free and competent” to say that you are right and Paul must be wrrong.
But you are obstinate in your refusal to answer the question, so simple to answer if you agree with Paul. What am I supposed to infer other than that you disagree with Paul but you have no clue how to justify your opposition to Paul?*
Twice you’ve ignored my answer and twice pretended I gave no answer. :whacky:

Paul doesn’t say what you make him out to say, you’re quoting him out of context to support your own agenda.

Here it is all over again:
Read my post #879. Then instead of taking a couple of verses out of context, re-read Romans 1:1 through to Romans 2:16 and you’ll see that Paul is teaching, and he doesn’t break off half way through to blurt out an irrelevant bigoted rant. Now actually read the lesson in full, then make your case if you really want to argue that Paul is saying all gays and lesbians, Catholics or not, worship “a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles” and have “become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.”
You also conveniently ignored what I said about Romans. I say you are misrepresenting Paul by quoting verses out of context. Make your case that Paul is saying all gays and lesbians, Catholic or otherwise, worship “a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles” and have "become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.
Now how about giving your answer, come on, make your case.
Please try to rise above your chronic reliance on ad hominems.
Heh, it’s not ad hominem to respond to your unprovoked and malicious ad hominem in post #870 that I supposedly attacked St Paul and am defending the devil’s own work.

As you’ve neither retracted nor given one shred of evidence for your slander after many opportunities, you’ve left no option but to conclude it was a pack of lies, that not only did you break one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness, but acted in defiance of your own Church’s catechism. 😦
 
inocente

**Heh, it’s not ad hominem to respond to your unprovoked and malicious ad hominem in post #870 that I supposedly attacked St Paul and am defending the devil’s own work.

As you’ve neither retracted nor given one shred of evidence for your slander after many opportunities, you’ve left no option but to conclude it was a pack of lies, that not only did you break one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness, but acted in defiance of your own Church’s catechism.**

How is all this not a pack of vicious ad hominems.

You have been given several opportunities to clear the air. Instead you refuse to do so. You refuse to say Paul teaches that sodomy is wicked. You refuse to say that you agree with him.

Look to yourself as one who opposes Paul, sisnce you will not support him.

“Those who are not with me are against me.” You know who said that, don’t you?

Your fatal flaw of Baptists, apparently, is that you don’t even follow the Nicene Creed.

Look you can keep wallowing in your* ad hominems *all day and all night long. They do not touch me at all. 😃 I have spoken the truth. You refuse to agree with Paul that sodomy is wicked and damnable.
 
Today’s decision in US v Windsor provoked this question: Just what, exactly, is the purpose of marriage?

If it is a civil right, then it has the potential to include many other types of relationships as well. I do not think we are headed down the slippery slope just yet, but I do not see how the US can deny polyamorous marriages, or even adult incest marriages, IF marriage is defined as a constitutional right/privilege.
I agree with THINKING SAPIEN there is a difference between religious weddings and civil weddings. Also the nature of marriage has always changed… For instance, women are no longer property of their husbands. Your slippery slope argument is fear-based reasoning that is not substantiated and nor is there evidence for this taking place. It is sort of like running around saying the sky will fall… Live in the present and confront reality as it presents it’s self. Also, when you speak of polyamorous marriage… this means two married persons engaging in sexual relationships outside their marriage like swingers…not multiple marriage partners.
 
You have been given several opportunities to clear the air. Instead you refuse to do so. You refuse to say Paul teaches that sodomy is wicked. You refuse to say that you agree with him.

Look to yourself as one who opposes Paul, sisnce you will not support him.

“Those who are not with me are against me.” You know who said that, don’t you?

Your fatal flaw of Baptists, apparently, is that you don’t even follow the Nicene Creed.

Look you can keep wallowing in your* ad hominems *all day and all night long. They do not touch me at all. 😃 I have spoken the truth. You refuse to agree with Paul that sodomy is wicked and damnable.
You must be joking. Go back to my post #901, the one you just responded to. Look at the entire middle of the post, starting with “Twice you’ve ignored my answer and twice pretended I gave no answer” and ending with “Now how about giving your answer, come on, make your case.”

All of that is my answer, now given three times. Three times I’ve answered and three times you’ve denied it. What’s the matter with you, why do you keep ignoring my answer and then saying I never answered? Please get out of this mad temper you’ve been in for days now and try to have a normal conversation, this is making no sense.
 
You also conveniently ignored what I said about Romans. I say you are misrepresenting Paul by quoting verses out of context. Make your case that Paul is saying all gays and lesbians, Catholic or otherwise, worship “a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles” and have “become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.”
You are indeed correct, inocente: Saint Paul’s argument is based on the consequences of idolatry. He gives sodomy as the extreme and most obvious and deplorable consequence because it so blatantly offends reason and is contrary to nature: he can produce no more obvious a disorder and consequence of idolatry than sodomy.

However, I fear you have forgotten that the Apostle was well aware that even greed or sexual lust was considered idolatrous: the former is condemned as idolatry by the Lord Himself, and the latter likewise is condemend as “adultery” by the same Authority. Now, in the context of the Covenant, adultery is considered infidelity to God and thus a form of, or at least equivalent to, idolatry itself. Indeed, the Prophets of old were wont to condemn Israel’s idolatries as nothing other than shameless whoredom or adultery.

So greed (the worhsip of Mammon) for the Apostle is one instance of the worship of creatures and, specifically, the worship of even that which is nothing but the work and product of mortal men’s hands, namely money; and lust likewise threatens to overthrow the reign of God in our hearts, as desire for the creature supplants the love of the Creator and His Law for us and His Covenant with us. Thus greed or sexual lusts are a form of idolatry and lead to selfishness, evil, perversion and all manners of disorders that are the consequence of perverting the order of Creation and abandoning justice. The extreme of this is given by Saint Paul as the practice of sodomy.

Now Christians will have no difficulty providing endless proofs that Western culture has indeed fallen into the worship of Mammon (idolatry) or is filled with the vice of lust (idolatrous). Saint Paul says the extreme consequences of these disorders and perversions is the practice of sodomy - and that this is the very case presently is obviously beyond dispute. Hence, your challenge is met: we can substantiate Saint Paul’s argument that sodomy is indeed the consequence of idolatry and faithlessness.
 
Jessie 5000

** For instance, women are no longer property of their husbands. Your slippery slope argument is fear-based reasoning that is not substantiated and nor is there evidence for this taking place.**

There is every reason to believe in slippery slopes. Have you never fallen down one?

From the liberalization of birth control access we have fallen to the legalization of late term babies. You may be too young to realize all the ways our culture has declined in the last 50 years. Fifty years ago pornography was not easily accessible by children because of laws against it. Now every filthy pornographer is making millions, not only off men and wowmen, but also children. That is not a slippery slope.

Do take a course in logic. Slippery slopes are not a fallacy. They happen. And they can be predicted to happen.
 
inocente
**
All of that is my answer, now given three times. Three times I’ve answered and three times you’ve denied it. What’s the matter with you, why do you keep ignoring my answer and then saying I never answered? Please get out of this mad temper you’ve been in for days now and try to have a normal conversation, this is making no sense. **

Please cite the post in which you say you agree or disagree with St. Paul’s condemnation of sodomy.

Also, please copy and paste the words in your next post. Thank you.
 
What of those who are made with homosexual tendencies, act on their natural, to them, desires yet do not engage in idolatry?
 
mek

**What of those who are made with homosexual tendencies, act on their natural, to them, desires yet do not engage in idolatry? **

It is an illusion that sodomy is natural. Some will persuade themselves that it is natural just because they do it. They lie to themselves. Self deception is as much a sin and lying to others. Sometimes its consequences can be far greater.
 
mek

**What of those who are made with homosexual tendencies, act on their natural, to them, desires yet do not engage in idolatry? **

It is an illusion that sodomy is natural. Some will persuade themselves that it is natural just because they do it. They lie to themselves. Self deception is as much a sin and lying to others. Sometimes its consequences can be far greater.
Do you believe that for all people, homosexuality is a choice with absolutely no biological propensity at all?
 
You are indeed correct, inocente: Saint Paul’s argument is based on the consequences of idolatry. He gives sodomy as the extreme and most obvious and deplorable consequence because it so blatantly offends reason and is contrary to nature: he can produce no more obvious a disorder and consequence of idolatry than sodomy.

However, I fear you have forgotten that the Apostle was well aware that even greed or sexual lust was considered idolatrous: the former is condemned as idolatry by the Lord Himself, and the latter likewise is condemend as “adultery” by the same Authority. Now, in the context of the Covenant, adultery is considered infidelity to God and thus a form of, or at least equivalent to, idolatry itself. Indeed, the Prophets of old were wont to condemn Israel’s idolatries as nothing other than shameless whoredom or adultery.

So greed (the worhsip of Mammon) for the Apostle is one instance of the worship of creatures and, specifically, the worship of even that which is nothing but the work and product of mortal men’s hands, namely money; and lust likewise threatens to overthrow the reign of God in our hearts, as desire for the creature supplants the love of the Creator and His Law for us and His Covenant with us. Thus greed or sexual lusts are a form of idolatry and lead to selfishness, evil, perversion and all manners of disorders that are the consequence of perverting the order of Creation and abandoning justice. The extreme of this is given by Saint Paul as the practice of sodomy.

Now Christians will have no difficulty providing endless proofs that Western culture has indeed fallen into the worship of Mammon (idolatry) or is filled with the vice of lust (idolatrous). Saint Paul says the extreme consequences of these disorders and perversions is the practice of sodomy - and that this is the very case presently is obviously beyond dispute. Hence, your challenge is met: we can substantiate Saint Paul’s argument that sodomy is indeed the consequence of idolatry and faithlessness.
Thanks for your response, however your theory doesn’t quite work.

One problem is that Paul says “For although they knew God”. But atheists do not know God, pagans do not know God, in fact the only people who could be said to know God were Jews and Christians. These Jews and Christians must have renounced their faith, possibly blaspheming against the Spirit, since they “neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened” and they “became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles”.

None of that applies to atheists or pagans, they never knew or glorified God to start with and so from Paul’s point of view didn’t become foolish but always were.

Another problem is that Paul says because these people “exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles”, “therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires”.

So they first of all became idolaters and then it was God, not them, who gave them over to sinful desires. Then “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts” - again God does it, not them. Then God “gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.”

None of this applies to the sixteen year old girl sitting next to you in Mass, or to the middle aged business man sat in front of you.
 
Please cite the post in which you say you agree or disagree with St. Paul’s condemnation of sodomy.

Also, please copy and paste the words in your next post. Thank you.
#879 to mek, then #893, #895 and #901 to you. They’re all in the last few days, no point copying them all again.

You’ll have noticed that 1AugustSon7 (post #905) had no problem understanding that I do not agree Paul is condemning normal gays or lesbians or what they do in private.

Sodomy includes any oral or anal act, and there are thirty times more heteros than homosexuals, so it’s highly probable that heteros account for far, far more sodomy. Yet if your interpretation of Rom 1 was correct, Paul would be letting all those hetero sodomists off. How very convenient for heteros to freely engage in exactly the same sodomist acts while only the tiny minority of homosexuals are condemned. But no, Paul is not saying God falls prey to prejudice.
 
mek

Do you believe that for all people, homosexuality is a choice with absolutely no biological propensity at all?

Yes. It is a choice. Sodomy is always a choice. Nothing in nature forces anyone into bed with another of the same sex.
 
inocente

**How very convenient for heteros to freely engage in exactly the same sodomist acts while only the tiny minority of homosexuals are condemned. **

I Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Paul does not distinguish here between heterosexual and homosexual sodomites. It is clear that all sodomy is condemned. Do you agree?
 
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