The Purpose of Marriage

[inocente]

On the heels of Pope Francis’ remarks that gays “should not be marginalized because of this [orientation] but that they must be integrated into society”, two polls show a majority of Catholics agree.

A Gallup poll shows 60% US Catholics in support not just of equal marriage but of introducing a law legalizing it in all 50 states:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/t16yefb9j0gnxxu9lunrga.png

A Pew round up of polls shows “in four of the seven Latin American countries surveyed (Chile, Venezuela, Brazil and Bolivia) Catholics are more likely than non-Catholics to accept homosexuality”.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2013/07/FT_catholics-latin-america-homosexuality.png

vatican.com/news/frame.aspx?url=http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews-vatican/~3/FHrhyBy5CC8/
gallup.com/poll/163730/back-law-legalize-gay-marriage-states.aspx
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/30/popes-comments-on-gays-have-support-within-his-flock/

 

[davidv]

On the heels of Pope Francis’ remarks that gays “should not be marginalized because of this [orientation] but that they must be integrated into society”, two polls show a majority of Catholics agree.

A Gallup poll shows 60% US Catholics in support not just of equal marriage but of introducing a law legalizing it in all 50 states:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/t16yefb9j0gnxxu9lunrga.png

A Pew round up of polls shows “in four of the seven Latin American countries surveyed (Chile, Venezuela, Brazil and Bolivia) Catholics are more likely than non-Catholics to accept homosexuality”.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2013/07/FT_catholics-latin-america-homosexuality.png

vatican.com/news/frame.aspx?url=http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews-vatican/~3/FHrhyBy5CC8/
gallup.com/poll/163730/back-law-legalize-gay-marriage-states.aspx
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/30/popes-comments-on-gays-have-support-within-his-flock/

Proving the being in the majority affords no protection from immorality.

 

[tonyrey]

Proving the being in the majority affords no protection from immorality.

The Pope pointed this out clearly:

He stressed that the official position of the Church is that homosexual **acts **are sinful, but homosexual urges and thoughts are not…

Speaking on his flight back to Rome from Rio, the Pontiff saved his criticism for gay pressure groups and lobbies. ‘The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well,’ he said.

‘It says they should not be marginalised because of this orientation but that they must be integrated into society.

‘The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem.’

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2380760/Who-I-judge-Pope-signals-tolerant-stance-homosexuality.html#ixzz2aiKH7nRO

 

[inocente]

Proving the being in the majority affords no protection from immorality.

Are you calling the majority of US and Latin American Catholics immoral? If not, what’s your point?

 

[josh987654321]

.

Whats the go inocente?

You wish to no longer engage in any discourse with me on same sex marriage or homosexuality, yet your still here arguing in support for same sex marriage, what are you doing, what are you trying to achieve?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/t16yefb9j0gnxxu9lunrga.png

Funny how “non-religious” are one of the largest supporters and those who “attend church weekly” are the largest oppossition to same sex marriage.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Are you calling the majority of US and Latin American Catholics immoral? If not, what’s your point?

Supporting same sex marriage is immoral if you are knowingly doing it, the Catholic Church (CCC) is very clear about the sexual acts of homosexuality being sinful, so for Catholics to know and believe this and yet turn around and advocate such sexual immorality for their homosexual brothers and sisters is obviously immoral.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PRmerger]

Are you calling the majority of US and Latin American Catholics immoral? If not, what’s your point?

I don’t have a problem with saying that. If the majority of US and Latin American Catholics support homosexual marriages, then the majority of US and Latin American Catholics support an immoral behavior.

 

[davidv]

Are you calling the majority of US and Latin American Catholics immoral? If not, what’s your point?

Since all are sinners, we all can be called immoral. However this is not the goal. The goal is to become holy. This means immorality must be opposed at every turn, both with oneselve as well as publically. My post was meant to be a rebuttal of the clearly implied conclusion that if a majority support an immoral activity it is no long immoral.

 

[tonyrey]

Regardless of human laws and conventions the fundamental purpose of marriage never has been nor ever will be the false identification of another type of relationship with the reproductive union of a man and woman - without which none of us would exist…

 

[inocente]

Since all are sinners, we all can be called immoral. However this is not the goal. The goal is to become holy. This means immorality must be opposed at every turn, both with oneselve as well as publically. My post was meant to be a rebuttal of the clearly implied conclusion that if a majority support an immoral activity it is no long immoral.

The dictionary definition of immoral is about not conforming with a standard of morality.

If we make the reasonable assumption that the vast majority of Catholics do not act against their conscience, we’re left with six out of ten of them having, in good conscience, a different standard of morality from the other four.

At the very least this implies there is no agreement on the purpose of marriage amongst Catholics, let alone in society in general.

 

[PRmerger]

The dictionary definition of immoral is about not conforming with a standard of morality.

Since we are on a forum that discusses religion, we ought to use the standard religious definition of immoral.

And that has nothing to do at all with majority rule.

If we make the reasonable assumption that the vast majority of Catholics do not act against their conscience, we’re left with six out of ten of them having, in good conscience, a different standard of morality from the other four.

Sadly, most Catholic consciences are ill-informed.

 

[inocente]

Sadly, most Catholic consciences are ill-informed.

If that’s true then never listen to a Catholic on moral matters, as the chances are their conscience is ill-formed and they won’t have a clue.

That would simplify things considerably, thanks for the advice.

But I disagree, in my experience the overwhelming majority of Catholics have been taught right from wrong and act in good conscience.

 

[PRmerger]

If that’s true then never listen to a Catholic on moral matters, as the chances are their conscience is ill-formed and they won’t have a clue.

That would simplify things considerably, thanks for the advice.

But I disagree, in my experience the overwhelming majority of Catholics have been taught right from wrong and act in good conscience.

The best part about dialogue with Catholics is that you can always know what the Catholic Church teaches–it’s right here on the internet for everyone to see. There can be no obfuscation.

Other religions, not so much.

So if there’s a poorly informed Catholic, then you can say, “That is not what the CC teaches, and here’s where it says [A] while you have said [not-A]”.

And you are certainly free to do this to me.

But I doubt you’ll find any contradiction between what I have posited is Church teaching and what is actually Church teaching.

 

[josh987654321]

The best part about dialogue with Catholics is that you can always know what the Catholic Church teaches–it’s right here on the internet for everyone to see. There can be no obfuscation.

Other religions, not so much.

So if there’s a poorly informed Catholic, then you can say, “That is not what the CC teaches, and here’s where it says [A] while you have said [not-A]”.

And you are certainly free to do this to me.

But I doubt you’ll find any contradiction between what I have posited is Church teaching and what is actually Church teaching.

.

People use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts…for support rather than illumination. Andrew Lang.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[inocente]

The best part about dialogue with Catholics is that you can always know what the Catholic Church teaches–it’s right here on the internet for everyone to see. There can be no obfuscation.

Perhaps you’re right and 6 out of every 10 US Catholics have never heard of the CCC, but methinks there must be another explanation.

For instance, this from CBS: “Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church. Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic, and 78 percent of American Catholics are more likely to follow their own consciences rather than the pope’s teachings (13 percent) on difficult moral issues.”

So it looks like 8 in 10 US Catholics have a different understanding of when and where the CCC applies to the other 2 in 10. I’m not a Catholic and don’t know who is right, my point is simply that if Catholics are disagreed on such matters as equal marriage, they will be disagreed about the purpose of marriage.

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps you’re right and 6 out of every 10 US Catholics have never heard of the CCC, but methinks there must be another explanation.

I don’t think I have posited that 6 out of 10 US Catholics have never** heard** of the CCC, inocente.

Hearing of something ought not be confused with having a well-formed conscience.

I am quite certain that 6 out of 10 US Catholics couldn’t provide a cogent apologia for the teaching on marriage as articulated in the CCC.

They probably couldn’t even provide the equivalent of a 5th grader’s explication on the Eucharist. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not a Catholic and don’t know who is right, my point is simply that if Catholics are disagreed on such matters as equal marriage, they will be disagreed about the purpose of marriage.

I have heard that 6 out of 10 Republicans do not believe in Climate Change. They are resistant to any endeavors to reverse (or at least prevent further) destruction of the ozone. They deny the science.

I have heard that 6 out of 10 fundamentalist home schoolers do not believe in the efficacy of immunizations. They deny the science

I have heard that 10 out of 10 atheists deny the existence of God. They deny the evidence/logic/reason that offers proof (in a philosophical sense) of His existence.

Are you saying that because they are the majority in their groups that this vetoes the truth of what they deny?

 

[inocente]

Are you saying that because they are the majority in their groups that this vetoes the truth of what they deny?

Nope, just saying that the polls show US Catholics are disagreed on such matters, which includes the purpose(s) of marriage.

You have your view on what is the truth, other Catholics have their view, and in this instance there is disagreement - interpretations of what it means to be a good Catholic differ. Which means that this thread can only be based on individual interpretations.

 

[josh987654321]

Perhaps you’re right and 6 out of every 10 US Catholics have never heard of the CCC, but methinks there must be another explanation.

For instance, this from CBS: “Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church. Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic, and 78 percent of American Catholics are more likely to follow their own consciences rather than the pope’s teachings (13 percent) on difficult moral issues.”

So it looks like 8 in 10 US Catholics have a different understanding of when and where the CCC applies to the other 2 in 10. I’m not a Catholic and don’t know who is right, my point is simply that if Catholics are disagreed on such matters as equal marriage, they will be disagreed about the purpose of marriage.

Oh I understand, Mathematics states that 2+2=4, yet the majority of those who call themselves Mathematicians can claim that 2+2=7 and still call themselves good and faithful Mathematicians. (It’s quite convenient to say 2+2=7 especially when selling/buying goods & services )

So it looks like 8 out of 10 Mathematicians have a very different understanding of when and where Mathematics applies to the other 2 in 10.

“I’m not a Mathematician and I don’t know who is right.” (that’s why we can refer to our math books, reason and common sense which dictate that 2+2=4)

Like others have said, a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it and the truth is the truth even if no one believes it.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh