The "queen of heaven"

[Pope_St_Peter]

Then all the men who were aware that their wives were burning sacrifices to other gods, along with all the women who were standing by, as a large assembly, including all the people who were living in Pathros in the land of Egypt, responded to Jeremiah, saying,

'As for the message which you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we are not going to listen to you!

'But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our fathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune.

'But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.

‘And,’ said the women, ‘when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her sacrificial cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?’ (Jeremiah 44:15-19; Updated NAS)

Who is the “queen of heaven” in this passage?

Why, in light of God’s jealousy regarding His people’s undivided devotion to Him, does He not now mind His people adoring, venerating, praying and consecrating themsevles to Mary?

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t think the virgin mother of God is the Queen of Heaven the writer had in mind. Mary always points to Jesus.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Who is the “queen of heaven” in this passage?

Why, in light of God’s jealousy regarding His people’s undivided devotion to Him, does He not now mind His people adoring, venerating, praying and consecrating themsevles to Mary?

On Honoring Mary as Imitators of Christ

Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”

As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.

We, as believers, are called to be imitators of God (Ephesians 5:1). At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed” (cf Luke 1:48). Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation. The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary; Jesus honored and glorified her first, and we simply imitate Jesus by doing the same.

Some might say, “Well, I obey the commandment when I honor my own mother and father, but I don’t need to honor someone else’s mother even if she was the mother of Jesus.” While this is true to one degree, it overlooks three important points on a deeper level.

First, as was already stated, “all generations will call [Mary] blessed”, and our own generation is called to bless and honor her, also.

Second, and more importantly, Mary was made the Mother of the Church by Christ Himself on Calvary. Consider the following passage from the Gospel of John:

“Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” (John 19:25-27)

While this passage is generally used as a proof of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Mary went to live with John because she had no other children to care for her after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension), it has also been used to illustrate that Mary was made the Mother of the Church since John (representing the Church) was made her son by Jesus. Therefore, like John, we who are members of the Church also look to Mary as our mother.

Finally, in the book of Hebrews we read:

“In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, ‘I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.’” (Hebrews 2:10-12)

If Jesus is our brother, then in the same sense, Mary is our mother. Following our brother’s example, we honor her according to the commandment.

 

[LilyM]

If Jesus is our brother, then in the same sense, Mary is our mother. Following our brother’s example, we honor her according to the commandment.

Absolutely - remember Paul states that we are all the Father’s children by adoption - ‘heirs with God and co-heirs with Christ’. That is WHY we call him ‘Abba’ (which is an informal expression - used in the sense we would use ‘Daddy’)

Remember too that under Jewish law a child by adoption had exactly the same status and rights as a biological child, and was thought of no differently. This is one reason why the people of Nazareth can rightly call Jesus ‘the carpenter’s son’, since Joseph adopted him.

So how can we believe Jesus didn’t give his mother all the honour (glory) he was capable of? And how can we believe that we should do any less? Are we not ourselves guilty of breaking the commandment if we do so?

 

[Pope_St_Peter]

The physical and the ethnic were key to Jewish theology, and specifically, their soteriology. Thus, part of what Jesus did was transcend the physical and ethnic relations. This can already be perceived in St. John the Baptist’s preaching:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, 'You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

'Therefore, bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

‘and do not suppose that you can that you can say to yourselves, “We hae Abraham as our father”; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.’ (Matt 3:7-9)

Even the first Jewish Christians still emphasized the physical and ethnic, and as a result, considered Gentile Christians “second-rate Christians.” This conflict can be discerned in St. Paul’s writings. In the words of Fr. Frank Matera, S.J., the Jewish Christians taught that one first had to become a Jew in order to be a Christian! (see Introduction to Galatians, Sacra Pagina, vol. 9.)

This is why Jesus did not accept the praise of “the breasts that nursed Him.” Jesus was transcending this Old Covenant understanding, and creating a new reality, the familia Dei. Hence, Jesus’ words that *whoever * obeys the will of God is His mother or brother or sister. This, of course, is typical of our Lord’s. “You have heard that it was said . . . but I say to you,” our Lord said.

So, arguing that we must honor Mary because Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments is to place one back under the physical and ethnic, that is to say, it is to say “Blessed are the breasts that nursed you.” St. John the Baptist’s words could easily apply to the Blessed Mother as well:

“Do not presume to argue, ‘Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up Jesus!”

 

[NPS]

Who is the “queen of heaven” in this passage?

One’s time might be better spent if one were to sit down and read the entire book of Jeremiah rather than simply poking 'round the web looking for proof eek: ) against Catholic beliefs. The queen mentioned here is that of an idol worshipping cult of the area surrounding Israel at the time. One of Jeremiah’s main points in this book is to show that there is one God, not many gods and he wants people to turn away from false gods. Simple stuff, really.

Why, in light of God’s jealousy regarding His people’s undivided devotion to Him, does He not now mind His people adoring, venerating, praying and consecrating themsevles to Mary?

You are making a very large mistake by assuming that because He dislikes false gods that He also dislikes any sort of attention to others whatsoever and that He doesn’t wish us to honor His mother. Fairly presumptuous of you, I’d say.

 

[cleargospel99]

This is a fascinating question:

And Randy Carson had the most thoughtful and sophisticated answer I’ve seen, but how to reconcile the practice with the explicit condemnation found in Jeremiah 7 and 44 as well as the Ten commandments (Exodus 20:4-6)?

**4 Thou shalt make the no grauen ymage, nether any symilitude that is in heauen aboue, ether in the erth beneth, or in the water that ys beneth the erth.
5 Se that thou nether bowe thy sylf vnto them nether serue them: for I the Lorde thy God, am a gelouse God, **and viset the synne of the fathers vppon the childern vnto the third and fourth generacion of the that hate me:
6 and yet shewe mercie vnto thousandes amonge them that loue me and kepe my commaundmentes.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Who is the “queen of heaven” in this passage?

Whoever was refered to in Jeremiah, she is obviously not the same queen of heaven that the Catholic Church honors. I prefer this lady: “…a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”. Rev. 12:1

Why, in light of God’s jealousy regarding His people’s undivided devotion to Him, does He not now mind His people adoring, venerating, praying and consecrating themsevles to Mary?

Because He’s not jealous of a humble virgin who (paraphrasing Luke 1 46:52) proclaims His greatness and who rejoices in God her savior. Because He has looked upon His handmaid’s lowliness and behold from now on all ages will call her blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for her and holy is His name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear Him. He has shown might with His arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Hence, Jesus’ words that *whoever *obeys the will of God is His mother or brother or sister. This, of course, is typical of our Lord’s. “You have heard that it was said . . . but I say to you,” our Lord said.

So, arguing that we must honor Mary because Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments is to place one back under the physical and ethnic, that is to say, it is to say “Blessed are the breasts that nursed you.” St. John the Baptist’s words could easily apply to the Blessed Mother as well:

“Do not presume to argue, ‘Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up Jesus!”

Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus precisely because she obeyed the will of God. Obeying His will, (“Mary said, ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.’” Luke 1 38) is what made Mary His mother. Yes, God could have raised up a stone for His mother, but instead He chose to raise up someone humble. As the Bible clearly says of Mary, “from now on all generations will call (her) blessed.” (Luke 1:48) Jesus wasn’t saying that Mary wasn’t blessed, He pointed out that she was blessed because she did the will of God.

 

[Ilroy]

You are all forgetting Revelations chapter 12. Here it can’t be made any more clear that anyone who is Christian is a child of Mary.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:
14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
18 And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

does He not now mind His people adoring, venerating, praying and consecrating themsevles to Mary?

Well, let’s see. First, ‘adoring’ is often used not just in the sense of the latria (Latin for the worship and adoration to be offered to God alone), it is also used for the ‘lesser’ admiration and affection of others. I ‘adore’ the music of Mozart in this sense, but I do not confuse Mozart’s music with God. Neither do I confuse Mary with God.

Same with ‘veneration’. And ‘prayer’. Please, look into word origins. None of these were ever used until very, very recent times (by Protestants) as referring to God alone. Paul ‘prays’ to others to ‘pray’ for him to God, for example. Tell me, do you admire St. Paul? Or is he ‘nothing special?’ Does acknowledging his role in the foundation of Christianity ‘take anything away’ from Jesus? It doesn’t, does it?

Is there some finite amount of ‘love’ in your heart, that you cannot give to others but think ‘only for Jesus’–because seriously, if this is what you think, you dishonor Jesus as well as his dear friends. Yes, give the ‘most’, give the ‘best’ to Jesus–but unless you want to be told “when I was hungry, you did not give me food,” etc., give love to others as well. This is, after all, commanded of us as Christians.

As for consecrating, let me tell you, I am a slave of Jesus in Mary by the De Montfort consecration for over 2 years now. Why not read “True Devotion” and see exactly what the consecration is and how it is always based on JESUS before getting confused by the narrow, recent, and inaccurate ‘definitions’ of a few people?

 

[Ilroy]

And how about this…
If you say just because this particular idol was called the queen of heaven then naturally we can’t call Mary the TRUE queen of heaven then look a few lines earlier in your original quote.
It talks about the men and women burning sacrafices to other gods…since they use the name god(s) there does that mean we can’t call the TRUE God by that name?

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is a fascinating question:

And Randy Carson had the most thoughtful and sophisticated answer I’ve seen, but how to reconcile the practice with the explicit condemnation found in Jeremiah 7 and 44 as well as the Ten commandments (Exodus 20:4-6)?

**4 Thou shalt make the no grauen ymage, nether any symilitude that is in heauen aboue, ether in the erth beneth, or in the water that ys beneth the erth.
5 Se that thou nether bowe thy sylf vnto them nether serue them: for I the Lorde thy God, am a gelouse God, **and viset the synne of the fathers vppon the childern vnto the third and fourth generacion of the that hate me:
6 and yet shewe mercie vnto thousandes amonge them that loue me and kepe my commaundmentes.

I can barely make out what you are writing. Your spelling is very bad.

 

[Delphinus85]

I agree with you all here. We are to give Mary honor for her obedience to God, and her being the mother of Jesus. I do admit though, it seems to me that some catholics DO take it too far. I have recently come across some literature (I don’t remember specifics so I can’t quote it…sorry) of people saying they place all their trust in Mary’s care, or devoting themselves “solely to her” or even claiming themselved dependent on her for salvation and care. I do believe she looks after those who ask her, and she intercedes for them to God the Father, but she can’t do it on her own, just like any other saint. It’s is only through Gd we have salvation, and only through God we are healed, and only in God do we have care and protection.

Yes, Mary looks after us, and I call her my mother, because she was the mother of my Lord, and I believe she looks after me, and can see when I am about to fall, and prays for God to step down and protect me, but she doesn’t do the protecting. I think the distinction has to be made.

 

[seremina]

This is a fascinating question:

And Randy Carson had the most thoughtful and sophisticated answer I’ve seen, but how to reconcile the practice with the explicit condemnation found in Jeremiah 7 and 44 as well as the Ten commandments (Exodus 20:4-6)?

**4 Thou shalt make the no grauen ymage, nether any symilitude that is in heauen aboue, ether in the erth beneth, or in the water that ys beneth the erth.
5 Se that thou nether bowe thy sylf vnto them nether serue them: for I the Lorde thy God, am a gelouse God, **and viset the synne of the fathers vppon the childern vnto the third and fourth generacion of the that hate me:
6 and yet shewe mercie vnto thousandes amonge them that loue me and kepe my commaundmentes.

For the verse quotes, are you using an older English version of the Bible? It kinda looks like Elizabethan English.

 

[Zooey]

I can barely make out what you are writing. Your spelling is very bad.

For the verse quotes, are you using an older English version of the Bible? It kinda looks like Elizabethan English.

Forhttp://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/2.gif reasons best known to himself, since discovering that nobody here thought that Tyndale was the hero Clear thought him to be, Clear has been:shrug: using Tyndale’s translation of the Bible. (Kinda defeating his own purpose…Wouldn’t you just love to try to read your way through:hypno: that???uch: )

 

[Mannyfit75]

Forhttp://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/2.gif reasons best known to himself, since discovering that nobody here thought that Tyndale was the hero Clear thought him to be, Clear has been:shrug: using Tyndale’s translation of the Bible. (Kinda defeating his own purpose…Wouldn’t you just love to try to read your way through:hypno: that???uch: )

That is the Tyndale version?

 

[Zooey]

That is the Tyndale version?

Apparently…He put the link up (in another thread), & was quoting from it…This is the “sterling clarity”–*NOT!!-- *that is supposed to be so accurate. ( can’t tell too much. I am too busy trying tofigure out what the words mean…
The weirdest thing so far (that I have been able to figure out at all) was calling the Holy Spirit, the “Holy Wind”.

 

[cleargospel99]

Apparently…He put the link up (in another thread), & was quoting from it…This is the “sterling clarity”–*NOT!!-- *that is supposed to be so accurate. ( can’t tell too much. I am too busy trying tofigure out what the words mean…
The weirdest thing so far (that I have been able to figure out at all) was calling the Holy Spirit, the “Holy Wind”.

Hi Zooey,
How are the Cats?

If you knew your Bible even a little better you would know that our Lord Jesus referred to the actions of the Holy Spirit as like unto “the wind” in

John 3:8 (Tyndale version-just for you my dear)

"The wynde bloweth where he listeth and thou hearest his sounde: but canst not tell whence he cometh and whether he goeth. So is every man that is boren of the sprete."

I kind of like the poetic style of the Elizabethan English, but if you have trouble with it, the Book, Chapter and verse reference should be the same in you favorite English translation.

Is it any less perspicuous than sitting through a Mass done in Latin?

But back to the topic, Who is this queen of heaven and why is God so mad at the Israelites for worshipping her?

I will subscribe to the theory that having been dethroned she has been replaced by Mary the blessed mother of Jesus, however I must confess that I know of no biblical warrant for this.

What say you my dear?

 

[Pope_St_Peter]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I’ve haven’t responded because up until yesterday I was finishing up a paper for my Systematic Theology class.

Contrary to the gross assumption of one on this thread, I did not google some verse(s) with which to try and refute the Catholic teaching on Mary’s queenship. This could not be farther from the truth. In fact, I was in prayer our Lord GOD, asking Him to speak a word to me. When I opened the Scriptures the passage from the prophet Jeremiah was where I was taken.

I certainly am aware of the fact that the “queen of heaven” in the passage is not the Blessed Mother. If it were, then she would have had to been, in some sense, pre-existent, which obviously she was not. With a title like “queen of heaven,” however, one cannot help but think of the Catholic understanding of Mary as “queen of heaven and earth.” This, of course, is why I brought the passage up.

The passage if obviously referring to the sin of idolatry on the part of God’s people. The official teaching fo the Catholic Church is that worship of Mary, or anyone other than God, is idolatry. Hence, the claim that Mary (or the saints) is not worshipped.

The passage, however, reveals what God expects of His people: undivided devotion to Himself. When one has a just view of the character of God, it is difficult to understand how it is now okay to fly to the redemptive mediation of Mary. She is not merely one prayer-partner among many, as some Catholics indicate in their presentation to Protestants. She is the supreme, and therefore, most powerful of intercessors; thus, if one does not invoke Mary’s help then he or she is seriously lacking their Christian life.

Given that Mary has the unique place of supreme participator in Jesus’ redemptive mediation, such that she is vital for one’s salvation - indeed the salvation of the world! - how are we to understand this in light of God’s demand for undivided attention, and in light of His word that “‘It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land,’ declares the LORD, ‘they will no longer say, “The ark of the covenant of the LORD.” And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again,’” (Jer. 3:16) because God would send His Son (Jn 3:16), the One who has the unique place of supreme mediator between God and men?

In Jesus, He Who was “in the beginning” (Jn 1:1), the “Alpha and the Omega” (Rv 1:8), the priest “according to the order of Mechizedek,” that is, He Who is “without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life” (Hb 7:3) has come to dwell amongst His people, so much so that we are temples of His Spirit. The God Who demanded undivided attention has come to dwell among His people in an unprecedented and unfathomably direct way! He who has Christ, in Whom “the fullness of Deity dwells” (Col 2:9), has the fullness of God in a direct, redemptive relationship.

In the Old Testament, God demanded undivided devotion to Himself. In the New Testament, undivided devotion is demanded of Christ because He is God-present-among-us. Now, Catholics say, devotion (not undivided devotion, though) to Mary is vital because she brings “the fullness of Deity,” the Incarnate Word, to us. This is okay because Jesus followed the fifth commandment. But this totally misunderstands the New and Eternal Covenant wrought by the God-man, Jesus. He said if one “does not hate his own father and mother” (Lk 14:26), then that person is not worthy of Him. Jesus would not have called us to something He Himself had not done. Obviously our Lord doesn’t mean hate in the way we commonly understand the word. It is equally obvious, though, that Jesus is calling us to a new understanding, a new relationship that transcends earthly ones. Hence, our Lord says that all those who do the will of God are His mothers and brothers, etc.