The Question of Amoris Laetitia

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catholic03

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Pax Christi:

I have been worried for so long about what the Holy Father’s post synodal apostolic exhortation means about communion for the divorced and ‘remarried’.

However, for those who are worried, do research it and read Chapter 8. It actually says nothing new and does not call into question any of the Church’s doctrines surrounding divorce and remarriage. It is perfectly in line with Church teaching and their is nothing to worry about.

God Bless!
 
The World Over on EWTN has been covering this since AL was first issued. If you read the footnotes very carefully, it opens the door for divorced persons who are living in adultery (that’s what Fr. Murray said!) to receive Holy Communion.

Contrast that with the perennial teaching of the Church from Our Lord Himself, St. Paul (1 Cor. 11: 23-32) to Pope John Paul II in FC paragraphs 84 & 85 on Matrimony and the Holy Eucharist.

They are objectively in the state of mortal sin and consequently cannot receive the Holy Eucharist. The same applies to all persons whose lifestyles contradict the 6th and 9th Commandments, and for that matter, any Catholic in the state of mortal sin.

Suggestion: Look up past episodes of The World Over re AL on YouTube. Fr. Murray, Robert Royal and Raymond Arroyo have thoroughly dissected and analyzed AL.

If it seems like nitpicking over footnotes, remember that the difference between the Catholic Faith and Arianism on the Divinity of Christ (homoousios vs homoiousios, respectively) comes down to literally one iota.

Homoousios (same substance - Catholic) vs homoiousios (similar substance - Arianism)

St. Athanasius fought his whole life against that one iota and what it represented - the denial of the Divinity of Christ.

So if one iota could wreak havoc on the Church for over 100 years, we need to imitate the example of Our Lord, St. Paul and St. Athanasius.

It is not charitable to divorced persons nor the rest of the faithful to allow this confusion to continue in the Church. The supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls (Canon Law & the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches). The salvation of souls is at stake (c.f. 1 Cor. 11: 29-30).
 
I disagree. Francis has not deviated from any of the Church’s doctrines. He does sometimes say things that are very weird, such as telling an atheist child his father is in heaven, but in terms of doctrines, he is very orthodox.

Although, how would you react if a small child asked you if his father, who had his children baptised and was a good man, was in heaven? I expect Pope Benedict would have done the same, and I don’t think that he necessarily deviated from Church doctrine in saying this.
 
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I started a thread about it once. I simply didn’t understand Amoris Laetitia for those divorced and remarried. It is worth reading if anybody is curious. In terms of my understanding, it was the most productive thread I’ve had here on CAF. I agree, Pope Francis is not changing teaching. This is not at all what this is about. Amoris Laetitia for divorced and remarried people is about getting tribunal system in countries other than the US. The US has a very good and functional tribunal system. Many other countries don’t. As far as I can see Amoris Laetitia does not affect the US at all in terms of divorced and remarried. I have no idea what people’s concern’s are with Amoris Laetitia after I looked into it.
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The current and practical application of Amoris Laetitia for divorced and remarried couples Moral Theology
I understand this is a tough subject. I’m trying to understand how Amoris Laetitia is currently and practically being applied for divorced and remarried couples. FYI: I live somewhere in the US. I’m single and I’ve never been married. I don’t have a strong agenda on this one. However, I just don’t understand how these rule changes are practically being applied. I’m not interested in people’s opinions (personal or theological) on Amoris Laetitia in this thread. I don’t want this to digress into …
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catholic03 said:
It is perfectly in line with Church teaching and their is nothing to worry about.
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I don’t believe that to be the case. Unfortunately, AL does contain a lot of ambiguous and questionable statements; if that were not the case, I don’t believe there would’ve been a need for the dubia to have been sent to Pope Francis.

The document may not be actively trying to change church teaching, but there are times that it seems to undermine and contradict it.
 
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What is it, 5-6 years later and nobody still really knows what it means? If it was so clear and in agreement with previous Church teaching, we wouldn’t have dioceses around the world allowing different things.
 
bobperk said:
What is it, 5-6 years later and nobody still really knows what it means?
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First, nobody in the US really knows what in means to them, because the part on divorced and remarried people doesn’t mean anything for them. It wasn’t written for the US. I feels like people in the US are taking things out of context.
bobperk said:
If it was so clear and in agreement with previous Church teaching, we wouldn’t have dioceses around the world allowing different things.
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I just don’t agree that dioceses around the world are allowing different things. Some countries literally don’t have a tribunal system or have a very non functional tribunal system. The US has the most functional one in the world. How is this fair or merciful? In response they put in a stopgap system to deal with divorced and remarried people while a functional tribunal system is developed in some countries. This isn’t changing the fundamental teaching or practice of Catholicism.
 
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I think if you do a quick Google search you will find that there is quite a lit of dioceses where one permits divorced and remarried people without a decree of nullity to receive, and others ‘not’. As far as 'places with few or poorly functioning tribunals, may I remind you that one of the places where dioceses are allowing this is GERMANY --HARDLY a place where there is a lack of tribunals, processing, etc., and pretty much next door to POLAND where the dioceses are absolutely NOT allowing reception by above. If anything one would think that Poland, being the ‘poorer’ country, would need to offer ‘more access’. . .and yet, it’s the richer country that is going all out.
 
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stpurl said:
I think if you do a quick Google search you will find that there is quite a lit of dioceses where one permits divorced and remarried people without a decree of nullity to receive, and others ‘not’. As far as 'places with few or poorly functioning tribunals, may I remind you that one of the places where dioceses are allowing this is GERMANY --HARDLY a place where there is a lack of tribunals, processing, etc.,
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I did ask exactly this question in my previous thread. I can and did find a confusing Lifesite article about this (i.e. why does Germany supposedly allow divorced and remarried people to receive communion). I felt I got a good response. Just because a diocese in Germany allows an informal system to evaluate situations to allow people to receive communion without a tribunal system does not mean these informal systems are being used to allow divorced and remarried people to receive communion. These systems could be used to work with a couple who are married only once and Catholic, but who married outside the church. For example, they might not need go through a tribunal system to receive communion.

Just because there is an alternate system to evaluate these types of issues does not mean this system is used to allow divorced and remarried people to take communion. In fact, I see nothing in Amoris Laetitia that acts as a fallback Catholic divorce plan if the annulment doesn’t go through with the tribunal. This is not what it is about.
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The current and practical application of Amoris Laetitia for divorced and remarried couples Moral Theology
OK…time for another frustrating question…I really don’t like LifeSite News. I know they don’t tell the whole story, I don’t trust them, and they unfairly criticize Pope Francis. I just don’t have the background to be able to refute what they are saying or understand what they leaving out. So (cringe)
unamused
, I’m going to post a LifeSite article, so that somebody can please explain to me what I am missing. To quote them Why do these countries, especially places like Germany and Belgium, …
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If you can find a good article about this or information on a website specifically and clearly saying Germany is allowing a system for divorced and remarried couples, I would be genuinely interested. Confusing Lifesite articles don’t count.
 
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Well here you go. This article was originally found in the National Catholic Register (IOW, from the press organ involved right here with Catholic Answers) and written by Father Raymond De Sousa. . .it’s about 18 months old but pretty concise and in fact, reposted on a respected Catholic education website.

 
If someone cannot receive communion in Malta, but can do so I Springfield, Illinois, we have big problem in our “universal Church.”
 
So I read through the very long article, and buried in the middle I found the following.
Over the summer, the predictable outcome of deliberate ambiguity came to pass. The German bishops said that those in “irregular” situations could approach the sacraments. The Polish bishops said they couldn’t.
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This is all I found that is at all relevant to this discussion, and I don’t believe it means anything. First, like I said in an earlier response, “irregular” doesn’t automatically mean divorced and remarried. For example, it could mean two Catholics married only once in a civil union outside of the church who want to figure things out so they can come back to the church.

Second, “approach” doesn’t mean anything. I once heard a homily about a man who was a divorced Catholic wanted to be married to a Catholic woman. He was very discouraged. However, somebody looked into the situation for him and found out the Catholic church had already granted his first wife an annulment. He was free to marry again. Once married in the Catholic church his life really changed for the better. So of course people should approach the sacraments. The priest was encouraging people to look into these situations and come back.

I still see no issues or changes of teaching in Amoris Laetitia.
 
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Dr_Meinheimer said:
If someone cannot receive communion in Malta, but can do so I Springfield, Illinois, we have big problem in our “universal Church.”
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On this we agree. Presently, the issues is that in the United States a person is far more likely to be able to receive communion after a marriage separation and remarriage than most other countries. This is because the United States has a very functional tribunal system and others countries don’t. People are able to have annulment requests considered in the US. This is a major issue that Amoris Laetitia is trying to address in other countries.

FYI: Springfield, Illinois was enjoyable. I saw the Lincoln Presidential Library, Home, and Tomb there. Also saw the Dana-Thomas House. I really like Frank Lloyd Wright’s architecture. I’ll visit his work when I get a chance when I’m travelling somewhere. I try to say a prayer for Frank when visiting his houses too.
 
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He is confusing and that is a major problem.
I don’t really even go to confession anymore because well according to him noone is in hell anyways so what’s the point?
 
Thomasbradley312 said:
He is confusing and that is a major problem.
I don’t really even go to confession anymore because well according to him noone is in hell anyways so what’s the point?
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One dogma of faith from Council of Trent [see Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Denzinger 826] is:
Can. 16. If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema.
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jack63:
Perhaps this article is what you are requesting?

The Erosion of Catholic Sacramental Discipline in Germany by Christian Spaemann
" On February 1, 2017, the German Bishops’ Conference published a press release announcing their new document, “ The Joy of Love Lived in Families Is Also the Joy of the Church ,” which summarizes the implications of Amoris Laetitia for sacramental discipline and pastoral care in Germany." (Bold emphasis is mine).

The Joy of Love Lived in Families Is Also the Joy of the Church - is a pdf document that is in german.
 
Is there a link in English? Both of the links were in German. I am curious and would like to read some of it if possible.
 
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This link and the following post link were too long to post in one post - so have divided the google translated document into halves. Each link is to the google translation. It’s the best I could do, sorry.

First half of the press release
 
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