The Quran and Jesus’ Crucifixion

[Reuben_J]

I believe the posters asked about the angel Gabriel that supposedly revealed Allah’s word to Muhammad. I am interested to know who had seen this angel Gabriel besides Muhammad himself. In the above passage you were showing us the al-Qaswa and Muhammad speaking to thousands of people. Of course, of course. But where is this angel Gabriel because upon this angel hanged the verification of the Quran?

How do you know that the creature was really Gabriel?

This is important when you discuss with Christians because angels can be bad and good. Gabriel when he came, would be with his trademark of announcing who he is, like, “I am Gabriel standing before God …” rather than appearing stealthily and oppressing people, like he did to Muhammad. So the identity of the creature that appeared to Muhammad could be suspect at best.

 

[mhmtas63]

I believe the posters asked about the angel Gabriel that supposedly revealed Allah’s word to Muhammad. I am interested to know who had seen this angel Gabriel besides Muhammad himself. In the above passage you were showing us the al-Qaswa and Muhammad speaking to thousands of people. Of course, of course. But where is this angel Gabriel because upon this angel hanged the verification of the Quran?

How do you know that the creature was really Gabriel?

This is important when you discuss with Christians because angels can be bad and good. Gabriel when he came, would be with his trademark of announcing who he is, like, “I am Gabriel standing before God …” rather than appearing stealthily and oppressing people, like he did to Muhammad. So the identity of the creature that appeared to Muhammad could be suspect at best.

Gabriel is Holy Spirit. So who did see Holy Spirit(but not just by light) in Christians? Once Gabriel seemed in form of a human. An ordinary human cannot see angel in original form but prophet Muhammad did. To explore what came to Muhammad? Quran is answer! Islam is answer!

In Islamic terminology there is no bad angels. Angels perform what God order. Devils and some kind Jinns have free will to do good or evil just like human. Devils somewhat are like angels. I think that is the reason why Christians call “bad angels”.

 

[Reuben_J]

So Gabriel is Holy Spirit, with the big cap, not angel. Okay. Can you give reference? Are there any other holy spirits besides him?

So that is basically what has been said here. Islam is attributed to one man, Muhammad, on his saying so without any witnesses whatsoever, who got his revelation from Allah by Gabriel the Holy Spirit. This ‘Holy Spirit’ was quite violent too as it oppressed Muhammad that made him quite insane.

Muslims must have terrific faith to believe all this. Do you realize that anyone can say that he/she heard voices and encountered some holy spirit and received revelation from God?

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the thing. Angels don’t force people to do things. They deliver messages and ask. " Gabril " seized Muhammad and commanded him, forced; to recite. That’s’ snot commissioning someone as a prophet. More like a spiritual rape or forced at gunpoint. I’ve read the Quran and I think it was the verses of Satan’s angels masquerading as God’s angels. The Quran is contradictory and swings back and forth, with a believe or suffer the Fire threat; in a manner that would be the ravings of a schizophrenic God who couldn’t decide upon a simple, straightforward account. As for Salam: You contradict yourself. First you say that prophets all have a truthful and noble character as a perquisite for prophethood and then say Muhammad was persecuted and reviled. Not so with his followers who listened to him as a prophet. Where in the Quran is Muhammad’s miracles? Don’t say the Quran itself. It was Muhammad’s composition inspired by the " angels ". Say for instance: Muhammad’s favorite wife Alisha was accused of adultery. Then Muhammad fired back with verses that requires for witnesses to the adultery and punish the adulterers with being hit one hundred times. That sounds like the retort of an angry man, not a most merciful Allah.

 

[mhmtas63]

And once Holy Spirit was seen in form of a dove!

 

[mhmtas63]

So Gabriel is Holy Spirit, with the big cap, not angel. Okay. Can you give reference? Are there any other holy spirits besides him?

So that is basically what has been said here. Islam is attributed to one man, Muhammad, on his saying so without any witnesses whatsoever, who got his revelation from Allah by Gabriel the Holy Spirit. This ‘Holy Spirit’ was quite violent too as it oppressed Muhammad that made him quite insane.

Muslims must have terrific faith to believe all this. Do you realize that anyone can say that he/she heard voices and encountered some holy spirit and received revelation from God?

Ha. Ha. ha… You believe a man to be God! But our faith is terrific. By!

 

[Michael16]

Hold on there, buddy. Our Lord is merciful, even to his enemies, while your Muhammad preached war upon all those who disbelieved him. As for the Holy Spirit, Saint John the Baptist witnessed the dove landing on our Messiah. Every prophet in the OT was to be tested to see whether or not he actually spoke God’s Word. That was by accurate prophecy. Did Muhammad ever prophesy anything that came true? Also: Islam spread largely by war; whereas our faith, spread by peaceful means; preaches a loving Jehovah who wants to save souls with love; not force. What’s more rational: A loving God that wants the best for us or a harsh, believe me or suffer; Allah that’s completely arbitrary and forces a man to recite his verses. I’m sorry if I slipped from apologetics to polemics; my passions are aroused by what Salam and mhmtas has said but, as my patron saint Saint Michael the Archangel cried: " Who is like God? "

 

[Reuben_J]

What is terrific is your faith. Faith means believing without seeing. So without seeing, you believe. That is faith.

I thought posters here were kidding, that’s why I asked for clarification whether it is true that there is no witness that Muhammad encountered the ‘holy spirit’ Gabriel. You just confirmed that indeed there was none.

 

[De_Maria]

Sory but you look like narrow-minded. Firstly Uthman did not compile a new book but he just made several copies from original with Quraysh dialect to be send to other Islamic countries.

Since he burned the original notes, how do you know? Especially regarding the fact that he had to for e the people on threat of violence to accept his version.

Muhammad complited His task by witness of thousands of Muslims. Here from the Last Sermon of prophet Muhammad:

When the sun passed its zenith, he ordered that Al-Qaswa be saddled for him, and came to the bottom of the valley, where he addressed the people and said:

Your blood and your wealth are sacred to one another, as sacred as this day of yours, in this month of yours, in this land of yours. All matters of the Jahiliyyah are abolished beneath my feet. The blood feuds, and the first blood feud that I abolish is that of Rabiah bin Al-Harith, who was nursed among Banu Laith and killed by Hudhail. The Riba (usury) of the Jahiliyyah is abolished, and first Riba that I abolish is that of Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib; it is all abolished. Fear Allah with regard to women, for you have taken them as a trust from Allah, and intimacy with them has become permissible to you by the Word of Allah. Your rights over them are that they should not allow anyone whom you dislike to tread on your bedding. If they do that, then hit them, but in a manner that does ot cause injury or leave a mark. Their rights over you are that you should provide for them and clothe them in a reasonable manner. I have left you something which, if you adhere to it, you will never go astray: The Book of Allah. You will be asked about me. What will you say? They said: ‘We bear witness that you have conveyed (the Message) and fulfilled (your duty) and offered sincere advice.’ He gestured with his forefinger towards the sky and then towards the people, (and said) “O Allah, bear witness, O Allah bear witness,” three times.

Is this from the Quran?

As I explained in previous posts there are thousand witness of revelation.

[/QUOTE]
All you’ve produced are witnesses of what he said. Not what the purported angel said. In other words, we have to take Mohammed’s word for it.

 

[De_Maria]

Gabriel is Holy Spirit. So who did see Holy Spirit(but not just by light) in Christians? Once Gabriel seemed in form of a human.

The Teachings of Christianity are proven by the witness of the Church. This witness is documented in the Gospels.

Only Muhammed witnesses anything and you want us to believe a man who believed and taught the benefit of lying to advance his cause.

An ordinary human cannot see angel in original form but prophet Muhammad did. To explore what came to Muhammad? Quran is answer! Islam is answer!

There are maany instances of humans appearing to men in Scripture. Also many instances of the prophets and Apostles who witnessed these Angels also performing miracles in God’s name. But Mohammed never even did the one thing he claimed the angel told him to do. He never wrote the Quran.

In Islamic terminology there is no bad angels. Angels perform what God order. Devils and some kind Jinns have free will to do good or evil just like human. Devils somewhat are like angels. I think that is the reason why Christians call “bad angels”.

[/QUOTE]
The point is that no one saw the angel talking to Mohammed.

 

[mhmtas63]

The point is that no one saw the angel talking to Mohammed.

Indeed there is no need for that. The revelation came to Muhammad. If everyone had been able to see and intervene so there should be another problems. But the situation through which revelation were used to come was perceiving. Muslims could understand that if revelation came while prophet were with them.

Prophet Muhammad proved prophethood by thousand miracles. Miracles are explained in Hadiths. Muslims witnessed miracles and wrote in hadiths. Hadiths are not just words of prophet but cases and situations concerned with prophet were narrated as hadiths. Someone ask why there is no miracles in Quran. God do not explain miracles but people do that. (But there are some miracles of Muhammad in Quran) I have no those hadiths in English which explain miracles. Perhaps someone can quote.

Arabs were so hard that it was so difficult to convince them about prophethood. But they were able to understand the case in the end. Arabs were used to worship statues and statues were source of their sustenance. Unbelievers struggled against prophet very hardly by several ways but they could not achive because prophet had a very strong fact.

If unbelievers were able to demonstrate that Quranic verses were merely poems of Muhammad so they would not consult such ways like war. But they could understand that verses were not poem of Muhammad. There were great poets but no one could contend for verses.

People apprehend the facts that prophet Muhammad preached. Even many Christians have some doubts about Jesus but non Muslims have such suspicion about Jesus because Quran teach and Muhammad preach faith and religion very strongly.

 

[HarryStotle]

Ha. Ha. ha… You believe a man to be God! But our faith is terrific. By!

Actually, that a man could become God is not what is believed by any Christian. Just the opposite, actually. Christians believe that God became a man.

Don’t you suppose the eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God COULD become a man if he wished?

Why don’t you think God could become man if he willed to be one?

And why would you think that you, a mere human, could determine what God would or would not be capable of?

Are you smarter than God or better able to decide his limitations than he is?

I mean, if God decided to become human who are you to say that he shouldn’t or couldn’t?

 

[Reuben_J]

De_Maria:

The point is that no one saw the angel talking to Mohammed.

Indeed there is no need for that. The revelation came to Muhammad.

Got it. It is all about Muhammad. He said holy spirit spoke to him and he is to be believed. No need empherical evidence.

 

[De_Maria]

Indeed there is no need for that.

On the contrary, you make an exception for Muhammad, but you don’t make that exception for anyone else. Why?

The revelation came to Muhammad. If everyone had been able to see and intervene so there should be another problems…

On the contrary, if everyone would have been able to see, there would be eyewitness evidence to the event. But since there are no witnesses, then there is no evidence and no reason to believe.

Prophet Muhammad proved prophethood by thousand miracles.

Not true.

Miracles are explained in Hadiths.

I read the hadiths. I’m not convinced.

Muslims witnessed miracles and wrote in hadiths. …

You’ll have to provide evidence. We are not like Muslims. We don’t believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.

Arabs were so hard that it was so difficult to convince them about prophethood…

Then provide the evidence. Not just say so.

If unbelievers were able to demonstrate that Quranic verses were merely poems of Muhammad so they would not consult such ways like war. But they could understand that verses were not poem of Muhammad. There were great poets but no one could contend for verses.

I’ve heard that claim. But the most beautiful poem is the Word of God taught by the Catholic Church.

People apprehend the facts that prophet Muhammad preached. Even many Christians have some doubts about Jesus but non Muslims have such suspicion about Jesus because Quran teach and Muhammad preach faith and religion very strongly.

On the contrary, Muhammad teaches confusion about Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and proved it by many miracles and by coming up His life again.

 

[mhmtas63]

Actually, that a man could become God is not what is believed by any Christian. Just the opposite, actually. Christians believe that God became a man.

Don’t you suppose the eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God COULD become a man if he wished?

Why don’t you think God could become man if he willed to be one?

And why would you think that you, a mere human, could determine what God would or would not be capable of?

Are you smarter than God or better able to decide his limitations than he is?

I mean, if God decided to become human who are you to say that he shouldn’t or couldn’t?

12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mark:12

4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew:1234:

10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark:10

19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew

First of all God do not say that God became man and God do not say that God wish to be man. God can do what wish but God do not wish persecute and be false, unfair, a stone, a tree, an angel … Okay. Can God do that? Technically yes but God do not conflict with self. If it was possible that God could be exposed to time and matter so God would vanish. God do not get into time and matter because God is always out of time. If we think that God transform into matter so other can say that matter can be eternal and that idea support materialism.

God is one and eternal and everlasting… All these attributes require to be out of time and matter.

God not transform into matter but God create matter.

God do not need to be matter or incarnate. That question that God can do anything what God wish(to be man) is unreasonable about God because we can ask many improper questions like that: Can God create a stone bigger than Godself? … These questions are illogical

 

[HarryStotle]

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 12:34

So if it is written that it is God alone that we should worship, could you explain why Jesus ALLOWS his disciples to worship HIM after he calms the storm and walks on water?

When they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Matt 14)

Notice that this happens in the same Gospel of Matthew that you quoted, a little after where Jesus was telling Satan that it is only permissible to worship God alone.

 

[HarryStotle]

10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark:10

19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew

Now, notice that when Jesus asks the rich young man, “Why do you call me good?” He is asking a serious question. He never says, "I am not good, only God is good. As John Chrysostom pointed out many hundreds of years ago…

When he [Jesus] says, “No one is good,” he does not say this to show that he is not good; far from it. For he does not say, “Why do you call me good? I am not good” but “No one is good,” that is, no human being. When he says this, he does not mean to exclude men from goodness but to make a comparison with the goodness of God. (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, 63.1)

I wouldn’t make sense for Jesus to mean “I am not good,” and then add, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”

What then is Jesus claiming?

If Jesus is really saying, “I am NOT good," then he would also be saying, “I am NOT God.” That is the whole point, of your posting these lines, no?

So if Jesus is denying that he is God, Jesus must also be denying that he is good. Jesus is not, then, GOOD because ONLY God is good.

Why is that a problem?

Because if Jesus is doing that, it doesn’t fit with the second half of the story. The rest of the story just wouldn’t make sense. What does Jesus go on to do?

The young man says, “I have kept the commandments.”

Jesus implies “Who gave the Ten Commandments? Yahweh – God, correct?”

The young man is saying, "I have kept all the commandments Yahweh says I must do to have eternal life.”

And then Jesus is implicitly saying, “Ah, you are missing something. You are lacking something. The Ten Commandments that were written by the finger of God on the tablets of stone, that is NOT enough. You have got to do something else if you want eternal life. You know what that something else is? You have to give everything up and come follow ME.”

That is a problem.

Jesus is adding something to the Ten Commandments. the necessity of following – not Yahweh or HIS Law (He doesn’t say, “Go and follow Yahweh!”) – but of following him – Jesus.

If Jesus is really claiming that he is NOT good, then why is he saying, “You have to follow me If you want eternal life." Would it make sense for Jesus to mean “You have to follow me because… I am really wicked. I’m a bad man?”

Remember the logic: If Jesus is denying that he is good, then he is also denying that he is God. And if he is denying that he is God, then it doesn’t make any sense for him to tell the guy that the only thing he is lacking for eternal life is to follow him, the not very good Jesus who is also not God.

 

[HarryStotle]

But…

…if it is a riddle then it makes sense.

Notice what he says and what he doesn’t say.

Jesus does not say, “I am NOT good.” That is NOT what he says.

He says, “Why do YOU call ME good, when no one is good but God?”

He didn’t say, “I am not good.” He is asking, “Why are you saying that about me when you know and I know that no one is good but God?”

The whole point of his question is saying to the young man, “You are on to something! Now you need to follow the train of your own thought to its logical end. You and I know that God alone is good. Yet, you just called me good. So let me ask you the question, ‘Who do you think that I am?’"

That is what Jesus implies in the riddle. That he is God and the young man needs to follow him in order to have eternal life.

 

[HarryStotle]

If it was possible that God could be exposed to time and matter so God would vanish. God do not get into time and matter because God is always out of time. If we think that God transform into matter so other can say that matter can be eternal and that idea support materialism.

God is one and eternal and everlasting… All these attributes require to be out of time and matter.

God is omnipotent. Why would his being eternal “require” him to be “out of time and matter?” I wouldn’t think time and matter would be restrictions upon God, because then those would be limitations on him. If God could not be in time or matter, and had to be “outside” of both, then time or matter would be limits on him.

It is better to say God is not limited by time or matter, not that he is necessarily “outside” of them.

He would have full access to both time and matter, both from within and without. They would not limit him in any way if he is omnipotent and omniscient.

God not transform into matter but God create matter.

God do not need to be matter or incarnate. That question that God can do anything what God wish(to be man) is unreasonable about God because we can ask many improper questions like that: Can God create a stone bigger than Godself? … These questions are illogical

No one said God would “need to be matter or incarnate.” God doesn’t “need to” anything, but that would not stop him from choosing to be incarnated in matter within time, if he so willed. Remember matter or time are in no way limitations upon him. He can do as he chooses with both.

Why is God choosing to do anything he wishes “unreasonable about God?” And why would these be “improper,” if God himself chose to be incarnate? Who are we to tell God what he can or cannot do?

We are not more good or more knowledgable or more powerful than God to decide for him what he should or should not do, or what is proper or improper for him to choose.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus claimed to be God throughout the Gospels. If he isn’t really God, then according to Islam Jesus is guilty of shirk or blasphemy. If Jesus really is God, then Islam has completely misrepresented him by claiming he was merely a prophet and only a man.

 

[mhmtas63]

So if it is written that it is God alone that we should worship, could you explain why Jesus ALLOWS his disciples to worship HIM after he calms the storm and walks on water?

I think in original text it mean “prostrated-themselves before.” That is Sajdah or Sajdah of thankfulness for God. Jesus had prostrated(Sajdah) to be saved from crucifixion. If Jesus is God so for who Jesus did prostrate?

Yet they do not say “you are God” but instead “Son of God”. Jesus describe himself in that way because Jesus was born without a Father.