The Quran and Jesus’ Crucifixion

[mhmtas63]

Now, notice that when Jesus asks the rich young man, “Why do you call me good?” He is asking a serious question. He never says, "I am not good, only God is good. As John Chrysostom pointed out many hundreds of years ago…

When he [Jesus] says, “No one is good,” he does not say this to show that he is not good; far from it. For he does not say, “Why do you call me good? I am not good” but “No one is good,” that is, no human being. When he says this, he does not mean to exclude men from goodness but to make a comparison with the goodness of God. (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, 63.1)

I wouldn’t make sense for Jesus to mean “I am not good,” and then add, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”

What then is Jesus claiming?

If Jesus is really saying, “I am NOT good," then he would also be saying, “I am NOT God.” That is the whole point, of your posting these lines, no?

…
…

That is a problem.

Jesus is adding something to the Ten Commandments. the necessity of following – not Yahweh or HIS Law (He doesn’t say, “Go and follow Yahweh!”) – but of following him – Jesus.

If Jesus is really claiming that he is NOT good, then why is he saying, “You have to follow me If you want eternal life." Would it make sense for Jesus to mean “You have to follow me because… I am really wicked. I’m a bad man?”

Remember the logic: If Jesus is denying that he is good, then he is also denying that he is God. And if he is denying that he is God, then it doesn’t make any sense for him to tell the guy that the only thing he is lacking for eternal life is to follow him, the not very good Jesus who is also not God.

Jesus was not bad but Jesus was very very very good. That is not point. The man asked “what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” and Jesus explain the way: It is God to unsure that so you must obey orders of God. Man answered that he did so Jesus recommend that he should give to poor all property. That was very hard for man because he had much property.

Here Jesus explain what “follow me” mean.

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, Mark 10:29

Jesus was prophet and Jesus was revealed “gospel” So if anyone follow revelation so that could be the way of salvation.

 

[HarryStotle]

I think in original text it mean “prostrated-themselves before.” That is Sajdah or Sajdah of thankfulness for God. Jesus had prostrated(Sajdah) to be saved from crucifixion. If Jesus is God so for who Jesus did prostrate?

Well, now you are just making stuff up. Mark didn’t use the Arabic word سجدة or “sajdah.” Mark was writing in Greek and he definitely used a Greek word.

The word “worshiped” that Mark used for what the disciples did was the Greek verb εχηγεομαι (transliterated: proskuneo). It is exactly the SAME verb that Mark used when Jesus spoke to Satan to say ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’ So Mark was definitely making it clear that the disciples worshiped Jesus in precisely the same way εχηγεομαι that Jesus had told Satan that εχηγεομαι (worship) was reserved for God alone.

What you read into Mark’s Gospel to impose the way you want things to be isn’t what should guide us when reading the text.

 

[HarryStotle]

Jesus was not bad but Jesus was very very very good. That is not point. The man asked “what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” and Jesus explain the way: It is God to unsure that so you must obey orders of God. Man answered that he did so Jesus recommend that he should give to poor all property. That was very hard for man because he had much property.

Here Jesus explain what “follow me” mean.

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, Mark 10:29

Jesus was prophet and Jesus was revealed “gospel” So if anyone follow revelation so that could be the way of salvation.

Again, no. Jesus wasn’t telling the rich young man to follow the “gospel” or some revelation. Jesus was telling the man to recognize who he was – God himself, come in the flesh.

Elsewhere, Jesus makes it very clear that he wants us to follow him because…

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. (John14:6-8)

What do you suppose Jesus means when he says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” Something different in Arabic, I suppose.

 

[De_Maria]

I think in original text it mean “prostrated-themselves before.” That is Sajdah or Sajdah of thankfulness for God. Jesus had prostrated(Sajdah) to be saved from crucifixion. If Jesus is God so for who Jesus did prostrate?

No disrespect, but why should we care what you think it means? We are Catholic, and we submit to the Church which Jesus Christ established. We learn from the Church. Not from random Muslims.

Yet they do not say “you are God” but instead “Son of God”. Jesus describe himself in that way because Jesus was born without a Father.

No. He is the Son of God because God is His Father. The Son of God, is God.

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus was not bad but Jesus was very very very good. That is not point.

Yes, it is. Jesus is giving the man the opportunity to recognize His Divinity.

The man asked “what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” and Jesus explain the way: It is God to unsure that so you must obey orders of God. Man answered that he did so Jesus recommend that he should give to poor all property. That was very hard for man because he had much property.

Here Jesus explain what “follow me” mean.

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, Mark 10:29

Read the words. For my sake. He says, “and for the Gospel” because He is God and has come to give mankind the good news of salvation.

Jesus was prophet and Jesus was revealed “gospel” So if anyone follow revelation so that could be the way of salvation.

[/QUOTE]
Jesus is God and God came as man to die for our sins and show us the way of Salvation.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.

 

[mhmtas63]

Read the words. For my sake. He says, “and for the Gospel” because He is God and has come to give mankind the good news of salvation.

No. Because Gospel were revealed through Him and Jesus always speak from Father but not from himself.

 

[mhmtas63]

What do you suppose Jesus means when he says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” Something different in Arabic, I suppose.

Birth of Jesus were a miracle. Jesus always did what Father revealed and Jesus was given great authority and performed many miracles … All those point that Jesus was sent by God. So there is no need to see Father. Father and Son are distinct persons. Son is ont he world but Father is not.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

What do you suppose Jesus means when he says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” Something different in Arabic, I suppose.

Birth of Jesus were a miracle. Jesus always did what Father revealed and Jesus was given great authority and performed many miracles … All those point that Jesus was sent by God. So there is no need to see Father. Father and Son are distinct persons. Son is ont he world but Father is not.

You are correct. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but they are one in Being and nature. The Son is the perfect image of the Father because he is the only begotten Son of the Father. This why Jesus says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” God is three persons who are perfect reflections of each other.

 

[mhmtas63]

God is omnipotent. Why would his being eternal “require” him to be “out of time and matter?” I wouldn’t think time and matter would be restrictions upon God, because then those would be limitations on him. If God could not be in time or matter, and had to be “outside” of both, then time or matter would be limits on him.

It is better to say God is not limited by time or matter, not that he is necessarily “outside” of them.

He would have full access to both time and matter, both from within and without. They would not limit him in any way if he is omnipotent and omniscient.

As essence God is out of time and matter. Otherwise God create and effect both. Incarnation conflicts with that.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the problem, I think; mhmtas. You described Jesus as the Son of God. The Quran states that Jesus was created and thus Allah can’t be His Father. By calling Him the Son of God; you’re contradicting the Quran and confirming things for us Catholics. As well as being in shirk.

 

[mhmtas63]

Here’s the problem, I think; mhmtas. You described Jesus as the Son of God. The Quran states that Jesus was created and thus Allah can’t be His Father. By calling Him the Son of God; you’re contradicting the Quran and confirming things for us Catholics. As well as being in shirk.

That is just a metaphor.

 

[mhmtas63]

You are correct. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but they are one in Being and nature. The Son is the perfect image of the Father because he is the only begotten Son of the Father. This why Jesus says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” God is three persons who are perfect reflections of each other.

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John.

 

[mhmtas63]

8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. John 8

That do not look like Son and Father are one being. But if you claim it is a mystery! I am not interest in.

 

[Reuben_J]

HarryStotle:

You are correct. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but they are one in Being and nature. The Son is the perfect image of the Father because he is the only begotten Son of the Father. This why Jesus says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” God is three persons who are perfect reflections of each other.

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John.

Here, but if you are up to it:

For my Father is greater than I (John 14:28).—These words have naturally formed the subject of controversy in every period of the Church’s history, between those who deny and those who accept the truth that the Son is “very God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before all worlds.” And, as in all controversies, statements have been made on either side which cannot be supported by the words themselves. On the part of those who assert the divine nature, it has been contended that the Father is greater than the Son only as regards the human nature of the Son; but this is not here thought of. In this passage, as in others of the New Testament, it is plainly asserted that in the divine nature there is a subordination of the Son to the Father. (See, e.g., John 14:16; John 17:5; 1Corinthians 3:23; 1Corinthians 11:3; 1Corinthians 15:27-28; Philippians 2:9; Philippians 2:11; and especially Note on John 5:19 et seq.) On the part of those who deny the divinity of our Lord, it has been contended that this text asserts the inferiority of His nature to that of the Father, whereas the words could only have been uttered by one who meant in them to assert His own divine essence. If we try to imagine a man saying, “God is greater than I,” we feel at once that He who really said them claimed for Himself that He was truly God.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Read the words. For my sake. He says, “and for the Gospel” because He is God and has come to give mankind the good news of salvation.

No. Because Gospel were revealed through Him

Because He is God.

and Jesus always speak from Father but not from himself.

[/QUOTE]
Because He is one with the Father.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

 

[De_Maria]

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John.

Jesus has become man. As man, the Father is greater than Jesus.
Jesus went back to His Divine station. Thus, He went unto the Father.

 

[De_Maria]

As essence God is out of time and matter. Otherwise God create and effect both. Incarnation conflicts with that.

Here’s the problem with Islam. You believe that God is out of time.

1. But that means that time is stronger than God and can keep God out.
2. But if you think that God can affect things from outside of time, then you believe that God is made of parts. And can somehow send some parts into time and space to affect them.

It’s like, for you, your god is outside of his time and space, thus outside of creation. If you were to draw your god, he’d look like a gigantic donut.

Whereas, we understand that God is “He who is”. God is all that exists. We live, breathe and move in God. Therefore, God is greater than all creation.

If we were to draw our God, He is the canvas upon which everything else is depicted.

 

[mhmtas63]

Here’s the problem with Islam. You believe that God is out of time.

But that means that time is stronger than God and can keep God out.
But if you think that God can affect things from outside of time, then you believe that God is made of parts. And can somehow send some parts into time and space to affect them.

It’s like, for you, your god is outside of his time and space, thus outside of creation. If you were to draw your god, he’d look like a gigantic donut.

Whereas, we understand that God is “He who is”. God is all that exists. We live, breathe and move in God. Therefore, God is greater than all creation.

If we were to draw our God, He is the canvas upon which everything else is depicted.

There is no anything stronger than God. Nothing can restrain God. I do not imply such thing. What I say is that God is so high and holy so nothing can involve God. If you claim such thing that God incarnated so you restrain God.

God is uniform in essence and God do not part neither in attributes nor in personality. God has one personality as God. Ofcourse God has many attributes. God can affect and act without requiring anything. There is no remoteness and closeness for God. God do not need to travel in space and in time to do anything. God is in everwhere by power and all attributes but is in no where by essence.

We live and breathe in property of God.

 

[mhmtas63]

Jesus has become man. As man, the Father is greater than Jesus.

Jesus went back to His Divine station. Thus, He went unto the Father.

We are all men(human) and we everybody will go unto Father(God)!

 

[De_Maria]

There is no anything stronger than God. Nothing can restrain God. I do not imply such thing. What I say is that God is so high and holy so nothing can involve God. If you claim such thing that God incarnated so you restrain God.

On the contrary, it is you who restrain God when you say that He can’t become man.

God is uniform in essence and God do not part neither in attributes nor in personality. God has one personality as God. Ofcourse God has many attributes. God can affect and act without requiring anything. There is no remoteness and closeness for God. God do not need to travel in space and in time to do anything. God is in everwhere by power and all attributes but is in no where by essence.

Now you’re dividing God’s power and essence. Our God is in essence, love. And His love is perfect justice. And His justice is perfect mercy. Our God is not parts.

Islam is a hodgepodge of contradictory teachings. On one hand, they say, he can’t be a man. On the other they say, he has ears and hands.

We live and breathe in property of God.

[/QUOTE]
We live and move in God:

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.