The Quran and Jesus’ Crucifixion

[mhmtas63]

My God is love. Who is yours?

God is love and love is one most important reason to create universe and human.

 

[mhmtas63]

My God enters into time and space? Where is yours?

God is in everywhere! I try too much to be in my heart.

 

[mhmtas63]

My God teaches that lying is a sin. Yours teaches that you are permitted to lie in three circumstances.

But in your religion liquors are permissible. Lie is a serious sin. There are some hadiths (not verses) about that but some scholars say that time revoke that permission.

 

[mhmtas63]

Death is a human experience. It is not a Divine experience. God can’t die. Therefore He took on a human body and the human body that He took, died, upon the Cross.

When a human being dies, his body dies but his spirit lives. The spirit never dies. Not even in humans.

When Jesus died, His human body died upon the Cross. But His Spirit, the Spirit of God, was not affected by the death of the body.

Do you understand, so far?

So do you claim divine essence dwell into a body?

 

[mhmtas63]

Yeah, Mohammed. He added many lies to revelation.

Nobody say Muhammad was a liar even His enemies! There is no any lie from Muhammad. He was the most rightful human.

 

[Cthompson]

But someone make different doctrines according to their minds. And say that that is from revelation. But it is not.

Ah! I’m glad you mentioned this. If someone makes up different doctrines, how do we know which one is true?

You say the Koran is true. It’s obviously not historically accurate. The Koran is composed entirely during Muhammed’s life time.

Compare this to the Bible, which was composed over thousands of years.

Why would I listen to so-called Islamic revelation when Christian revelation came before and had been verified?

Muslims and Islamic scholars can not make the case that Jesus or his immediate followers taught distinctly Islamic ideas.

 

[De_Maria]

If Jesus die by human nature so how can that be a holy sacrifice? And God do not want a sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:8 First he says, “Sacrifices and offerings, holocausts and sin offerings,[d] you neither desired nor delighted in.” These are offered according to the law. 9 Then he says, “Behold, I come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If human want to be forgiven so human could forswear. And nobody is faulty by other’s sin. God is fair. God do not charge one for other’s sin.

You’re right. But God took on our sins in order to redeem the faithful people of the Old Testament and give them their eternal reward.

Until Jesus died, they had not received their reward.

Heb 11:39 Yet all these, though approved because of their faith, did not receive what had been promised. 40 God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect.

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus’s God is my God.

Hebrews 5: ( For to which of the angels did God ever say)
8 …“Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever;
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You loved justice and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your companions”;

Did not Paul say that?

Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

God is in everywhere! I try too much to be in my heart.

Then God is in creation.

But in your religion liquors are permissible. Lie is a serious sin. There are some hadiths (not verses) about that but some scholars say that time revoke that permission.

Then your holy book contradicts itself.

So do you claim divine essence dwell into a body?

Philippians 2:6 Who,[a] though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
7 Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;[c]
and found human in appearance,
8 he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to death,
even death on a cross.[d]

Nobody say Muhammad was a liar even His enemies!

Certainly his enemies said he was a liar. And his followers had better not say it or they would be killed.

There is no any lie from Muhammad. He was the most rightful human.

No. No angel appeared to him. He did not do what he claimed the angel told him to do. He left the Quran a shambles. And our God says that any angel that gives a different gospel is condemned. And the gospel you proclaim is totally different than the one given to the Apostles.

And, we have evidence to back up our beliefs. You have nothing but Uthman’s claims. Because Mohammed’s claims were burned up.

 

[Cthompson]

De_Maria, I would like to say what a phenomenal job you have been doing in this thread of analyzing in depth each argument presented to you. Kudos!

 

[daverod]

those of the Book is who is being referred to …

 

[HarryStotle]

But in your religion liquors are permissible.

Jesus drank wine and turned water into wine. Liquors are permissible.

Lie is a serious sin. There are some hadiths (not verses) about that but some scholars say that time revoke that permission.

Some scholars? Which specifically?

Let’s be clear here.

Taqiyya or “deception” is religiously-sanctioned doctrine in Islam. It is practiced by both Shi’as and non-Shi’as. The doctrine holds that deliberate dissimulation about religious matters can be carried out if it is to protect Islam and Islamic believers. The broader term “kitman,” means “mental reservation" and permits reserving or not telling the entire truth to protect oneself. If, for example, a Muslim apologist was protecting the honour of Islam it would be permissible to deceive by not telling what the apologist knows to be true about Islam. So, if that apologist wanted to push the point that Islam is tolerant of other religions, he could quote “There shall be no compulsion in religion.” {2:256} But he wouldn’t be telling the whole truth because of what he isn’t saying. The Muslim doctrine of abrogation, or naskh, entails that such an early verse as “no compulsion in religion” has been cancelled out by later, far more intolerant verses, which do permit religious subjugation. Kitman permits telling only part truths, but taqiyya allows outright dissimulation to protect Islam and believers.

So are you practicing taqiyya here when you say “some scholars” revoke that permission (I.e., to deceive others to protect Islam?) It might be true that “some scholars” have revoked that permission, but what you aren’t telling us is that the Qur’an has not revoked that permission, and “some scholars” do not have authority over the Qur’an, do they?

 

[Cthompson]

But in your religion liquors are permissible.

The Islamic version of heaven depicts alcoholic beverages in abundance. Ironically enough, Muslims cannot consume alcohol on earth but they can in heaven.

 

[Michael16]

Hurrah, DeMaria and HarryStotle!! Muhammad’s enemies spoke of him composing the verses as a poet or sorcerer; which he had to defend himself several times against. The " angel " Muhammad was coerced by was a demon. The abrogation thing makes a shambles of the Quran. As for the liquor thing, don’t the Saudi royal family drink themselves?

 

[mhmtas63]

So are you practicing taqiyya here when you say “some scholars” revoke that permission (I.e., to deceive others to protect Islam?) It might be true that “some scholars” have revoked that permission, but what you aren’t telling us is that the Qur’an has not revoked that permission, and “some scholars” do not have authority over the Qur’an, do they?

1. O you who have believed, fear Allah and speak words of appropriate justice. Al-Ahzab(33)

2. ......So avoid the uncleanliness of idols and avoid false statement, Al-Hajj(22)

3. They only invent falsehood who do not believe in the verses of Allah, and it is those who are the liars. An-Nahl(16)
4. Say, "Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed. Yunus(10)

It is very clear that Quran do not allow lie. So nobody have authority over Quran(include prophet) and nobody do that. There is hadith about permission but ultimately it is an extraordinary way which is not urgent and general. Otherwise Quran and hadiths advise to say the true always. And as I mentioned some scholars interpretated that time revoke permission of hadith.

Indeed I have not so much knowledge about Taqiyya but I did study some. That taqiyya issue arise from interpretations of verses and it is not prefered. I ensure you that I am far away from taqiyya. Taqiyya doers do taqiyya not to secure Islam but they do that to conserve themselves not to be persecuted. But God in Quran awaken that it is better to be afraid of God’s punishment not human’s.

 

[mhmtas63]

The Islamic version of heaven depicts alcoholic beverages in abundance. Ironically enough, Muslims cannot consume alcohol on earth but they can in heaven.

Beverages in Heaven are not alcoholic!

 

[mhmtas63]

Ah! I’m glad you mentioned this. If someone makes up different doctrines, how do we know which one is true?

You say the Koran is true. It’s obviously not historically accurate. The Koran is composed entirely during Muhammed’s life time.

Compare this to the Bible, which was composed over thousands of years.

Why would I listen to so-called Islamic revelation when Christian revelation came before and had been verified?

Muslims and Islamic scholars can not make the case that Jesus or his immediate followers taught distinctly Islamic ideas.

As I said both Bible and Quran are true! Did Jesus say that He rised from death? No. But if such wonderful fact had occured so Jesus would explain in details. Did Jesus do? No.

Which part of Jesus(divine or humane) die? Ofcourse you will say the human. Then what is relation between divine soul and temporal body? Do divine nature suffer through body? I think God never suffer! If any thing can harm God so how God could stand as God any more?

And if Jesus were maried so what would His child look like? What percentage childs would be human and god?!

 

[Cthompson]

As I said both Bible and Quran are true!

If both are true, than how come you don’t believe what is in the Bible? Or follow the teachings taught in the Bible?

If the Bible is true, than one should follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

[Cthompson]

As I said both Bible and Quran are true!

And how would you reconcile that the Koran is the closing of God’s word? If the Bible is true and the Koran is true, what’s to stop another allegedly divinely inspired book from also being God’s word?

 

[De_Maria]

I ensure you that I am far away from taqiyya.

But that is what taqiyya would have you say. The teaching of taqiyya basically makes every Muslim untrustworthy, whether you practice it or not.

Why? Because there is no way for us, the outsiders, to tell the difference between those who uphold taqiyya and those who do not. After all, Muslims have historically practiced taqiyya, frequently.

Beverages in Heaven are not alcoholic!

Is there such a thing as a non-alcoholic wine?

As I said both Bible and Quran are true!

The Quran says that Jesus is not God.
The Bible says that Jesus is God.

One of them is true. One of them is not.

If the Bible is true, than one should follow the teachings of the Bible.

I believe the Bible. The Quran doesn’t even really exist.

And, on the subject of the Quran, doesn’t Islam teach that the Quran is in heaven. Not only that, but that the Quran is eternal.

The Catholic Church Teaches that only God is eternal.

 

[mhmtas63]

The Bible says that Jesus is God.

Could you point a verse in Gospel which declare that clearly?