The Qur'an and Jesus on the Cross

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It is easy. It means that they planned to kill Jesus. But they could not kill him on the cross (not crucified) and they could not kill him inany other way too.

Not crucified means Jesus was not killed on the cross. As it used to happen, in those days,many people came down from cross alive. Then their legs were broken to kill them quickly.

This was not done in the case of Jesus as a respect. Even the Roman soldier there was an inside man. He said “Oh, surely, he (Jesus) was a holy man of God.” (some words near about that.)
The point I fail to understand is why Allah allowed Jews to arrest and persecute Jesus? (According to your personal interpretation). There is a Koran verse in Surah 5 claiming that Allah never allowed Jesus’ adversaries harm Him in any way. If your assertions are true, that promise of Allah was not fulfilled. :confused:

About Jesus’ crucifixion, you somehow forget that one of the Roman soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a lance to be sure of His death. :rolleyes:
 
Christian and Islamic religion have the same basic view on crucification.

Darkness in men could not kill the eternal Jesus (pbwh) they just perceived it so.

We Know that God / Allah did not allow the killing of
eternal Jesus (pbwh) submitting to His will.

Fear no man.
 
Christian and Islamic religion have the same basic view on crucification.

Darkness in men could not kill the eternal Jesus (pbwh) they just perceived it so.

We Know that God / Allah did not allow the killing of
eternal Jesus (pbwh) submitting to His will.

Fear no man.
Nope. They did kill Jesus. He was dead. He rose again. He lives forever and reigns supreme over all.

You are correct that there is no need to fear.
 
Thanks be to God for post #102 and for Ralf posting it

Christian and Islamic religion have the same basic view on crucification.

Darkness in men could not eternally kill Jesus (pbwh) they just perceived it so.

We Know that God / Allah did not allow the killing of
eternal Jesus (pbwh) submitting to His will.

Fear no man.
 
what does that mean?
We Know that God / Allah did not allow the eternal killing of
Jesus (pbwh) submitting to His will.

Hey if we keep going you will tech me gramma, God bless you i was shocking at school LOL
 
Dear Planten,

What secret code you mean? Perhaps you may not understand that the bible is not a book of science nor a book of history. The bible is the book of faith. The bible is the reflection of faith. That is why we do not simply take the literal word, and take it for granted as the real meaning. To understand the depth of the bible, one must be good at the original language it is written. This is the same thing if I want to learn the depth of Quran, correct? I must be good in Arabic to be able to do so.
**Only this para is partly useful (right). You know it is impossible for every one to learn the basic language of the revelation. In the case of Quran it is possible to learn because the language in which it is revealed (Arabic) is mentioned in the Quran itself. The name of the book (Quran) is mentioned in itself. The name of the person to whom it is revealed is mentioned in it. The name o fthe religion (Islam) is also mentioned in the Quran.

But such is not the case of the bible. Practically nothing is there. So what can we do. And the language in which bible was revealed is not known (by the bible itself). So we have to go looking for the original language and that may be a dead language now.

Then there was a translation (first one). I would call it transmigration of the whole system to the pagan Greek and Roman system. Then translation from Greek to German and then to English. And the missing three hundred years of the early history played hell with the real knowledge.

I stop here about the first para. Others will be discussed slowly soon.**
Why do we need to be well verse in the original language? Because we have to understand the circumstances, the grammar, the vocabulary, writing techniques, in order to grasp the real meaning of the writer. You cannot just take the word of the bible and applied it literally. Still basing on the bible, our theology is a dynamic theology. For instance, if you believe in a = b, and you believe b = c, eventhough that the bible does not specifically say, we can believe that a = c. That what makes our theology becomes a dynamic one.
It would be good to understand the original language. But where is the original language please?
Now, let me give you an example. I live in Indonesia, to the east of Ka’ ba. So, the muslims must face west to face Ka’ Ba, correct? However, Sister Amy last time quoted one of the Hadist forbidding you to face Ka Ba when you are urinating, for instance. Further, the Hadist does mentioned literally that you must face either west of east to avoid Ka’ Ba. If I take the meaning literally, following the hadist of urinating facing west, that means I am facing Ka Ba while urinating, correct? I am taking this not as a joke, nor being offensive. I just want to tell you that you can’t take the wording of a holy book just as it is written literally, for granted
.

** These things haveno meaning. They are based on heresay.**
Another one example. The Indonesian muslim must face west to face Ka Ba, correct? Now, since the earth is round, if a muslim face east to pray, he/she will eventually face Ka Ba, correct? Now, why can’t they face east? In the world of Quran, Muhammad believed that the earth is flat. I am not going to refute that. For the sake of this discussion, lets put it aside. In that case, the Indonesian should face west, as what it happens today. Now, can I say that Muhammad is wrong for believing the earth is flat? Not necessarily. Quran is a book of faith, not a book of astronomy. Muhammad never meant to teach Astronomy 101, correct? Do you understand me?
** Again it has no meaning. Muhammad never said that earth is flat. In fact it is the beauty of the Quran which is telling that objects are round (globes) floating in their orbits. So your idea of a flat earth in the time of Muhammad is a dead matter.**
About the relativity. Do you understand that? If you don’t then you are saying that Einstein is wrong. Is that what you mean? Geezz:shrug: Tell you what. If you don’t understand the relativity, and if you want to know, then you better learn, rather than making conclusion too fast. If you don’t want to know, why bother concluding??
Will you be happy if I told you that I understand and believe E=Mxcxc. What use it that to you? I am sorry. I was not impressed with any of your reasonings.
 
why are you putting (pbwh) to the One who gives peace?

Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you
It does be with him or he would not have it to give.
 
Your missing out a lot of the substance that makes up the NT.
There are so many more things to read and give you a better understanding of Christianity if you take the time to read them.
If you have only read those 4, you do not understand much about what we believe at all. You really are missing out, and will give you a better understanding us, and how and why we worship God the way we do.
**You please worship your god the way you like. I do not mind. But to say that your religion needs crutches to establish itself is not a happy sign to me. Specially, if the original (very early ) history of Jesus which is very important, contained in the four gospels are not enough and useful then what else you need.

You surely want to twist or disprove what is written inthe four gospels. Without the rest of the acts and edicts of unimportant persons, you have no religion from Jesus. Your book (four gospels) cannot stand without additional help from disciples. Disciples are nobody. It is Jesus whois real. Then you want to build on that. Well do it. But do not pick up things on the way which may be opposite to what Jesus had been doing or teaching.

I feel that you are not satisfied with the wise words of Jesus as described in the 4 gospels. You need the words from others. And that is your fault and failure. Your religion becomes a mixture. It is already nothing from god in the first place. Then you mix more manly material into it. I am sure that the real disciples of Jesus never wished that.

I feel that the four gospels are quite enough for me as they tell me what Jesus was doing and teaching and I love that. I am happy with it.**
 
I feel that the four gospels are quite enough for me as they tell me what Jesus was doing and teaching and I love that. I am happy with it.
If this is what Allah guides you to do then and you are doing it.

(without judgment)
You may be in right relationship with God / Allah / The Most High…
 
Some false things can be said without those who say it being even aware of the fact! It has happened very often and still is happening…
**There was a lot written within the post. I do not mind if Jesus said “Go and preach in thename of God and the holy spirit and Jesus”. There is no harm. The names may be mentioned as they are important. Like we always mention the name Muhammad when saying there is no God but Allah. That does not mean that we take Muhammad as a god.

But you do make a mistake when you go preaching in the name of God and holy spirit and the son and then you take those other two as gods. That is your mistake. It is absolutely not allowed to invent a god beside the real one God.

I said I do not find it wrong to preach in thename of God and the holy spirit and the son (Jesus). The holy spirit and the son are important part of the preaching. Otherwise one would say, “From where have the christians got their religion?”

More later…**
 
[There was a lot written within the post. I do not mind if Jesus said “Go and preach in the name of God and the holy spirit and Jesus”. There is no harm. The names may be mentioned as they are important. Like we always mention the name Muhammad when saying there is no God but Allah. That does not mean that we take Muhammad as a god.
But you do make a mistake when you go preaching in the name of God and holy spirit and the son and then you take those other two as gods. That is your mistake. It is absolutely not allowed to invent a god beside the real one God.
I agree with you
I dont know of any scripture saying of either saying to us they are God. While they were with us.

If they were God they would come right out and say it us?
If we are to be in right relationship with God we are to be like children, you would tell a child simple, and the messengers (pbwt) did that they said God is greater.

Jesus (pbwh) is narrated as saying The Father is greater than he.
He uses the term Father for the God he prays to and teaches us to worship and pray to.

Thanks be to God for your post
[/quote]
 
You please worship your god the way you like. I do not mind. But to say that your religion needs crutches to establish itself is not a happy sign to me. Specially, if the original (very early ) history of Jesus which is very important, contained in the four gospels are not enough and useful then what else you need.

Planten, what are you talking about? the Acts of the apostles have always been “in” the teachings, and “in” the Bible.
You surely want to twist or disprove what is written inthe four gospels. Without the rest of the acts and edicts of unimportant persons, you have no religion from Jesus. Your book (four gospels) cannot stand without additional help from disciples. Disciples are nobody. It is Jesus whois real. Then you want to build on that. Well do it. But do not pick up things on the way which may be opposite to what Jesus had been doing or teaching.
 
If this is what Allah guides you to do then and you are doing it.

(without judgment)
You may be in right relationship with God / Allah / The Most High…
what you are teaching Planten is a sin against God’s words. God never said you pick and choose what Jesus and His apostles said but asked us to follow the apostles’ teachings because it was them who went to baptise and preach and explain as commanded by Jesus. It is actually an insult to God to tell someone that God is ok if he rejects any part of His words. I know you mean well, but clarification is needed.
 
Only this para is partly useful (right). You know it is impossible for every one to learn the basic language of the revelation. In the case of Quran it is possible to learn because the language in which it is revealed (Arabic) is mentioned in the Quran itself. The name of the book (Quran) is mentioned in itself. The name of the person to whom it is revealed is mentioned in it. The name o fthe religion (Islam) is also mentioned in the Quran.

What kind of a reasoning is this? Do you think the name of the book enables one to understand its content? What an extreme formalist you are!

Besides, the Koran contains several words borrowed from foreign languages. I am excluding the Arabic words that are obsolete now.

There are still many parts in the Koran that cannot be understood by Muslims! Thus, the supposed advantages you have posted do not suffice to make it a book easy to comprehend.
planten;3827570:
But such is not the case of the bible. Practically nothing is there. So what can we do. And the language in which bible was revealed is not known (by the bible itself). So we have to go looking for the original language and that may be a dead language now.
Your argument debunks itself from the start because there is nothing called revelation! The original languages of the Bible are Hebrew and Greek, which can still be understood.
Then there was a translation (first one). I would call it transmigration of the whole system to the pagan Greek and Roman system. Then translation from Greek to German and then to English. And the missing three hundred years of the early history played hell with the real knowledge.
Evidence please? Who told you that “the real knowledge” was tampered with? Neither Mohammad nor his book I am sure 😉

The Bible is even historically at least a thousand times more accurate than the Koran, which fears to give the names of significant characters and places due to the limited knowledge of its authors. The Koran also lacks chronological and thematic unity and makes use of anachronism to support its allegations.
It would be good to understand the original language. But where is the original language please?
]

Where is the original Koran please? Ooops, sorry! I sometimes forget that there was no book named Koran until after Mohammad’s death. Could you please show me the original material (stones, pieces of wood and paper, animal skins, leaves) upon which the original verses had been allegedly written? .
** Again it has no meaning. Muhammad never said that earth is flat. In fact it is the beauty of the Quran which is telling that objects are round (globes) floating in their orbits. So your idea of a flat earth in the time of Muhammad is a dead matter.**
Another beauty of the Koran is that it says Allah created mountains lest the land be shaken when men walk on it! Another beauty: meteors are missiles used by Allah to keep jinns away from his revelations.
 
Only this para is partly useful (right). You know it is impossible for every one to learn the basic language of the revelation. In the case of Quran it is possible to learn because the language in which it is revealed (Arabic) is mentioned in the Quran itself. The name of the book (Quran) is mentioned in itself. The name of the person to whom it is revealed is mentioned in it. The name o fthe religion (Islam) is also mentioned in the Quran.

Islamic logic mashallah is full of wisdom. What does all this have to do with whether it is from God or not? or understood or not?
But such is not the case of the bible. Practically nothing is there. So what can we do. And the language in which bible was revealed is not known (by the bible itself). So we have to go looking for the original language and that may be a dead language now.
 
There was a lot written within the post. I do not mind if Jesus said “Go and preach in thename of God and the holy spirit and Jesus”. There is no harm. The names may be mentioned as they are important. Like we always mention the name Muhammad when saying there is no God but Allah. That does not mean that we take Muhammad as a god.
Planten, please please please be honest and stop perverting my scripture! You are free to misinterpret and distort your Koran, but you cannot do the same with my scripture. Jesus does NOT say “Go and preach in the name of God, and Son, and Holy Spirit”, but “baptize in THE NAME OF the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (three persons possessing the SAME NAME!) Would you preach or teach in the same name of Allah and Mohammad? :rolleyes:
But you do make a mistake when you go preaching in the name of God and holy spirit and the son and then you take those other two as gods. That is your mistake. It is absolutely not allowed to invent a god beside the real one God.
That is not only preaching, but also baptizing, praying, blessing in the NAME of one Triune God! You always fail to understand the clear things written in the Bible.
I said I do not find it wrong to preach in thename of God and the holy spirit and the son (Jesus). The holy spirit and the son are important part of the preaching. Otherwise one would say, “From where have the christians got their religion?”
What does this mean? Important parts of preaching? Would you like to share with us your precious ideas as to what makes the Son and Holy Spirit significant and crucial?
 
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