The Qur'an and Jesus on the Cross

[Sister_Amy]

People ignore the second part?

Not really. The second part which is saying that people who disagree with what the Qur’an says don’t have proof. You don’t. And I don’t have proof for any theories which anyone might come up with. Neither do you.

 

[inJESUS]

People ignore the second part?

yes that’s why “it appeared as such” is not explained .

people who differ therein are not Christians…we never differed on it…it is Muhammad who says as such, and it is Muslims who differ in interpretations, as we see some explanations talking about someone else, yet many Muslims deny it…so what does he mean by “it appeared as such”? or what could he have meant? there aren’t endless options really. But i see that you don’t want to think about it, which proves my point that this part of the verse is not adressed , as if not part of the Quran.

 

[ralphinal]

Jesus said he was crucified and died.

The Apostles said he was crucified and died.

His mother said he was crucified and died.

All of them lied?

God made it look like he was crucified and died.

God lied as well?

This is where I get stuck

God cannot lie. If Jesus and the rest lied, there is no point considering them prophets or important at all.

Now, Lapell’s suggestion that the quote is not meant to mean that he did not die and was not crucified but should be taken to mean that they did not do it against Jesus’s will, but he allowed himself as part of God’s plan is interesting…

In other words, yes he was crucified and yes he died, but not because they did it but because God wanted it to happen. Evil had no victory in his death.

 

[SedesDomi]

Jesus said he was crucified and died.

The Apostles said he was crucified and died.

His mother said he was crucified and died.

All of them lied?

God made it look like he was crucified and died.

God lied as well?

This is where I get stuck

God cannot lie. If Jesus and the rest lied, there is no point considering them prophets or important at all.

Now, Lapell’s suggestion that the quote is not meant to mean that he did not die and was not crucified but should be taken to mean that they did not do it against Jesus’s will, but he allowed himself as part of God’s plan is interesting…

In other words, yes he was crucified and yes he died, but not because they did it but because God wanted it to happen. Evil had no victory in his death.

Yes, that’s one interpretation of the Qur’anic quote that a non-Muslim may take: that the Qur’anic denial of Jesus being killed and crucified, is the denial of Jesus being killed and crucified against God’s will/plan/providence.

Some Muslims may also take this interpretation, even if said interpretation is not the traditional Islamic one.

 

[Sister_Amy]

yes that’s why “it appeared as such” is not explained .

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Ralph, if you can bear with me to the end, perhaps you can better understand the Muslim P.O.V.

Jesus said he was crucified and died.

What if he didn’t say that–but someone said he did?

The Apostles said he was crucified and died.

What if they didn’t say that, but someone said they did?

His mother said he was crucified and died.

What if she didn’t say that, but someone said she did?

All of them lied?

Or perhaps one liar just made it all up?

God made it look like he was crucified and died.

Maybe someone else made it look like that.

God lied as well?

Could someone just be lying about God?

My questions allow the possibility of only one liar… more likely, considering the variables. Don’t you think so?

 

[Angelos]

People ignore the second part?

Not really. The second part which is saying that people who disagree with what the Qur’an says don’t have proof. You don’t. And I don’t have proof for any theories which anyone might come up with. Neither do you.

The second part of that verse is based on a logical fallacy. The authors of the Koran claimed that some people (indefinite!) disagreed about Jesus’ crucifixion, and this was somehow related to the ignorance of the ones disagreeing. However, the same authors of the Koran were not aware of the fact that through the verse in question Muslims disagreed from Christians about Jesus’ crucifixion. Thus, it is plausible to use this Islamic argument against the Koran and say that Muslims do not know anything about Jesus’ crucifixion, but only follow their conjecture.

Besides, the Koran has nothing to prove that Jesus was not crucified! Christians, on the other hand, have at least secular evidence from historic writings that many people saw Jesus on the cross! IMPO, the writers of the Koran knew that the only way to avoid the historic evidence for Jesus’ crucifixion was to endorse the genuinity of the incident through the cotradictory theory of illusion and substitution.

In other words, Mohammad’s scribes asserted that the incident of crucifixion was undeniably real, but the person crucified was fake. Very much like Gnostics, Mohammad adhered to this theory simply and essentially because it was impossible for him to deny the crucifixion altogether! Since historic evidence prevented him from denying the existence of the crucifixion in Jesus’ life story and removing Jesus on the cross from secular history, he struggled to remove Jesus from the cross through a supposed deceptive miracle.

Finally, the Koran did its best to keep Jesus’ crucifixion a mystery with no solution and evidence by denying it through a miracle of illusion that aimed to conceal the truth and forbid people from proving the otherwise.

Very crafty like the serpent in Eden, indeed!

 

[Angelos]

Hi Ralph, if you can bear with me to the end, perhaps you can better understand the Muslim P.O.V.

What if he didn’t say that–but someone said he did?

What if they didn’t say that, but someone said they did?

What if she didn’t say that, but someone said she did?

Or perhaps one liar just made it all up?

Maybe someone else made it look like that.

Could someone just be lying about God?

My questions allow the possibility of only one liar… more likely, considering the variables. Don’t you think so?

All your arguments and remarks lead us to the personality of that ONE liar: The ONE who asked his scribes to devise a false scripture and distort both Jewish and Christian tenets.

Do you need a name?

 

[inJESUS]

yes it was known before Muhammad. But since you believe the Quran is the word of God,am asking you to give your opinion, not a fatwa, and you’re not going to hell because of your opinion really, yet you refuse to even give an aponion as to what “it appears as such” means because you know you won’t like the result

As to your idea of one man lying, you seem not to know anything about the rise of Christianity. Jesus was witnessed by many and the disciples had disciples after them. Any lie within that frame of time would have been refuted and killed on the spot, yet within that frame of time ALL said the same thing including the apostles’ disciples. If you believe that one man can change the teachings of different churches and thousands if not millions of belivers in the first century where people were still eyewitness, then you are twisting history and faith of first Christians who were still eyewitness for ONE man you believe in.

 

[ralphinal]

Hi Ralph, if you can bear with me to the end, perhaps you can better understand the Muslim P.O.V.

What if he didn’t say that–but someone said he did?

What if they didn’t say that, but someone said they did?

What if she didn’t say that, but someone said she did?

Or perhaps one liar just made it all up?

Maybe someone else made it look like that.

Could someone just be lying about God?

My questions allow the possibility of only one liar… more likely, considering the variables. Don’t you think so?

It is possible, but let us look at the verse in the Qur’an.

157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross,a but he was made to appear to them as such.b
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain:

Now, who could make it appear that Jesus had died on the cross. Note, it says “he was made to appear to them as such.” In other words, someone made it look to the people who were there that it was Jesus and he was on the cross and he died. ONly God could do that.

That makes God, by His own admission in the Qur’an, a lier.

UNLESS, you say he was there and he did not die, as Paar likes to say. Even then, it would be tough to convence anyone who saw the History Channel International show on crucifixion. After 10 minutes on a cross, Oxygen intake is reduced 50%. The chance that he was there for three hours and did not either bleed out or sufficate after what he went through leading up to it is minimal. Besides, you cannot get stabbed in the side by a lance and not bleed out in that era. Romans knew how to kill.

 

[inJESUS]

i think you meant that Christians differed about it because of the gnostics. Actually no, it is gnostics who differed about it, never Christians and gnostics were considered heretics because of their many unbiblical teachings, not only the crucifixion…and who differ about it now are Muslims, never Christians. The crucifixion was never point of debate in orthodox Christianity since the first century.

I gave 2 options, someone gave an interesting one as well and truly the options of what it “appeared as such” are minimal…the Quran did not stop at “neither killed nor crucified” but AFFIRMED something that “appeared” and as i said, the options are very limited, and none will be liked by Muslims, that is why, again, this verse is neglected as if not part of the Quran.

 

[planten]

All your arguments and remarks lead us to the personality of that ONE liar: The ONE who asked his scribes to devise a false scripture and distort both Jewish and Christian tenets.

Do you need a name?

Sorry angelos, your argument has no real force. The Quran is not just that one verse under discussion. It is a highly relaiable voluminous book. It is not just that one verse you are questiong or just one word of the verse.

You should have better ideas. That verse is well understood by the Muslims even though some one tried to mislead them. But by the Grace of Allah, they have preserved the right meaning.

The Jews and the Christians claimed that they killed jesus son of Maryam… But they killed him not and could not kill him on the cross . But it was made to appear to them as such (as if he was dead)…

It was Jesus on the cross alright. But he was brought down from the cross within few hours. His legs were not broken. He was not buried nor any burial rites were performed. He was laid in a spacious room (tomb) and looked after (treated). He got up after two days and walked away.

The more you ask such things the more will be exlained to you. Matter is being discussed so I had to present the Islamic / Quranic version. Please take it as such. But you can believe what you like.

 

[planten]

It is possible, but let us look at the verse in the Qur’an. Shown later below.

Now, who could make it appear that Jesus had died on the cross. Note, it says “he was made to appear to them as such.” In other words, someone made it look to the people who were there that it was Jesus and he was on the cross and he died. ONly God could do that.

That makes God, by His own admission in the Qur’an, a lier.

UNLESS, you say he was there and he did not die, as Paar likes to say. Even then, it would be tough to convence anyone who saw the History Channel International show on crucifixion. After 10 minutes on a cross, Oxygen intake is reduced 50%. The chance that he was there for three hours and did not either bleed out or sufficate after what he went through leading up to it is minimal. Besides, you cannot get stabbed in the side by a lance and not bleed out in that era. Romans knew how to kill.

3:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross,a but he was made to appear to them as such.b
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain:

Ralph, it was not any difficult matter to understand. It was made to appear to them as dead is like “He appeared to them as such.” That is all. The translation given above is quite well. It tell about the boast of the Jews that they killed Jesus son of Mary. Christians are not involved in that killing beause there were no christians then. And why would they kill Jesus?

But because the christians of the later centuries fell a victim to the claim of the Jews that Jesus was killed on the cross, the christians also adopted that bad belief not realising that it was a cursed death. Then they turned his death into some sacrifice and built a fort of original sin and a need for the slain Jesus.

They (christians) also took part in the belief seriously for different reason and Jews and christians, both parties, believed that Jesus was killed on the cross. But the Jews did not agree with the christians that jesus had died and taken away the sins. These were the disagreements between them.

Quran has solved the matter. Jesus did not die on the cross. He was saved miraculously. That was a miracle that he was saved from a sure death. When brought down from the cross he appeared to the people as dead.

 

[inJESUS]

But because the christians of the later centuries fell a victim to the claim of the Jews that Jesus was killed on the cross, the christians also adopted that bad belief not realising that it was a cursed death.

 

[inJESUS]

But because the christians of the later centuries fell a victim to the claim of the Jews that Jesus was killed on the cross, the christians also adopted that bad belief not realising that it was a cursed death.

 

[dolphinlove]

you just refuted your whole argument. Curse is being put on the cross. Just being put on the cross means you are sinful according to people

 

[Glaucon]

3:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross,a but he was made to appear to them as such.b
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain:

Ralph, it was not any difficult matter to understand. It was made to appear to them as dead is like “He appeared to them as such.” That is all. The translation given above is quite well. It tell about the boast of the Jews that they killed Jesus son of Mary. Christians are not involved in that killing beause there were no christians then. And why would they kill Jesus?

But because the christians of the later centuries fell a victim to the claim of the Jews that Jesus was killed on the cross, the christians also adopted that bad belief not realising that it was a cursed death. Then they turned his death into some sacrifice and built a fort of original sin and a need for the slain Jesus.

They (christians) also took part in the belief seriously for different reason and Jews and christians, both parties, believed that Jesus was killed on the cross. But the Jews did not agree with the christians that jesus had died and taken away the sins. These were the disagreements between them.

Quran has solved the matter. Jesus did not die on the cross. He was saved miraculously. That was a miracle that he was saved from a sure death. When brought down from the cross he appeared to the people as dead.

Feigning perpetual ignorance… Again!

planten, we could build an entire drinking game around you, if you keep this up.

 

[dolphinlove]

Feigning perpetual ignorance… Again!

planten, we could build an entire drinking game around you, if you keep this up.

it will take more than a drinking game to even think this was borderline logical…

 

[Glaucon]

it will take more than a drinking game to even think this was borderline logical…

What I meant that for each time he resorts to that kind of logic, we all drink.

But then again, given that he simply keeps at it, we’ll all die of alcohol poisoning before we’re through.

Hurr hurr hurr

 

[Angelos]

Sorry angelos, your argument has no real force. The Quran is not just that one verse under discussion. It is a highly relaiable voluminous book. It is not just that one verse you are questiong or just one word of the verse.

Sorry planten, my argument has real force because your scripture has only ONE SINGLE verse that apparently denies crucifixion and tries to replace it with the supposed assumption. Mohammad’s scribes knew nothing about Jesus’ crucifixion until Medina period. They only chose to deny it in a hurry with no theological reason and accurate or adequate historical information. This also proves that the denial of Jesus’ passion in the Koran was essentially an innovated teaching.

You should have better ideas. That verse is well understood by the Muslims even though some one tried to mislead them. But by the Grace of Allah, they have preserved the right meaning.

Please clarify your remarks and tell me who tried to mislead those Muslims? It is a traditional belief in mainstream Islam that someone else (Judas Iscariot or a Roman soldier or Simon the Cyrene or one of the apostles) was substituted for Christ due to a miracle of illusion. If you think this traditional tenet is misleading, how can you prove that your subjective and comparatively new interpretation is the one presented in the Koran??? I must remind you once more that the verse in question denies both crucifixion and death by asserting that Jesus appeared to have been crucified and murdered.

The Jews and the Christians claimed that they killed jesus son of Maryam… But they killed him not and could not kill him on the cross . But it was made to appear to them as such (as if he was dead)…

Your hypothesis is wrong from the beginning! Christians never claimed that they had killed Jesus because it was Jesus’ adversaries, NOT His followers, that boasted of murdering Him! The Koran verse says "They neither killed NOR crucified Him, but so did it seem to them (illusion is not restricted to death!).

It was Jesus on the cross alright. But he was brought down from the cross within few hours. His legs were not broken. He was not buried nor any burial rites were performed. He was laid in a spacious room (tomb) and looked after (treated). He got up after two days and walked away.

Where is your evidence to prove all these allegations? I have read the Koran 100 times, but cannot find any data or a single narrative to support your thesis. The Gospels, on the other hand, make it clear that Jesus died and rose on the third day! Thus, you have neither the Bible nor your scipture on your side.

The more you ask such things the more will be exlained to you. Matter is being discussed so I had to present the Islamic / Quranic version. Please take it as such. But you can believe what you like.

You Muslims are discussing this matter NOW? Why has it taken you centuries to reach a consensus on this issue and find answers to my questions? I hope you do not think that baseless hypotheses will suffice to convince me.

Peace