The Qur'an and Jesus on the Cross

[inJESUS]

You are right. Some one misled the Muslims about Jesus not being on the cross himself. That it was some one else on the cross. This was a grave mistake of the Muslims to follow that line. It was not true at all.

 

[swariffin]

Angelos, I am sorry to say that I had told you the truth. We have the bible. We read it. Jesus is there talking and explaining things. He did well but the church has almost reversed everything that Jesus did or said. That is the reality.

Church is no more with Jesus and Jesus no more with church. If Jesus ever returned to this earth again (which he will never do), he will not be able to recognise his own religion (and his own teachings).

Dear Planten,

Did you talk to Jesus about this. How can you be so sure? Of course, you can have any holybook of any religion. Without open mindedness, you will never find anything there. The same thing with bible. You just show us how incompatible Quran and Bible. Since you are muslim, no wonder you will ever say so. But, what is the point? Christianity a la Muslim? Does not sound logical to me.

BTW, you just said that Jesus never ever return to this world again. But, your Quran does not agree with you. Isa will come again to the earth, correct? (I don’t want to discuss that will Isa do at that time, in this thread). You are contradicting yourself.

 

[planten]

Dear Planten,

Did you talk to Jesus about this. How can you be so sure? Of course, you can have any holybook of any religion. Without open mindedness, you will never find anything there. The same thing with bible. You just show us how incompatible Quran and Bible. Since you are muslim, no wonder you will ever say so. But, what is the point? Christianity a la Muslim? Does not sound logical to me.

BTW, you just said that Jesus never ever return to this world again. But, your Quran does not agree with you. Isa will come again to the earth, correct? (I don’t want to discuss that will Isa do at that time, in this thread). You are contradicting yourself.

**I am not contradicting myself. If Jesus has died then he can never come back to this world again. The Muslims and the christians and the Jews are hoping for the coming of a messiah according to their own beliefs.

The belief of each faith is different. The Jews are also hoping that their Messiah will come. Christians do the same that same Isa will come again. The muslims are mistaken that same Jesus will come. Messiah will come but it will not be the same old Jesus.

There is no news of the coming of the Isa in the Quran. It is only given in the authentic Hadith (Muslim and Bukhari). But that Hadith proves that the future Isa will not be the same old person (Israeli). That is for sure and I can explain it too.**

 

[inJESUS]

Yes Planten, please do tell us about the coming of a different Isa.

 

[Angelos]

I am not contradicting myself. If Jesus has died then he can never come back to this world again. The Muslims and the christians and the Jews are hoping for the coming of a messiah according to their own beliefs.

What do you mean when you say that Jesus’ death would prevent His second coming? This makes no sense since Christianity does NOT teach that Jesus’ death (cross) was the final station! The New Testament proclaims Jesus’ resurrection from death as well as His physical ascension to the right hand of His Father. Jesus is alive now and “He will certainly come in glory to judge the living and the dead; His kingdom will have no end”.

**

The belief of each faith is different. The Jews are also hoping that their Messiah will come. Christians do the same that same Isa will come again. The muslims are mistaken that same Jesus will come. Messiah will come but it will not be the same old Jesus.**

How many “Messiahs” are there according to your scripture??? Do you naively believe that Jesus will not come again because Jews deny that He is the promised Messiah? What if members of different religions have different views about the Messiah? What else could be more natural than this?

**
There is no news of the coming of the Isa in the Quran. It is only given in the authentic Hadith (Muslim and Bukhari). But that Hadith proves that the future Isa will not be the same old person (Israeli). That is for sure and I can explain it too.**

Nevertheless, thousands of Muslim scholars dissent from you at this point! Why do you fail to see the fact that most Muslims are in desperate need to bring Issa back to this world in order to

a) rival Christian tenets about the Messiah’s second coming by adapting essentially biblical apocalyptic descriptions to their faith and scripture.

b) prove and highlight Jesus’ mortality, whom they believe to have been bodily assumed to Allah’s presence and preserved from death (until His second coming).

 

[inJESUS]

Nevertheless, thousands of Muslim scholars dissent from you at this point! Why do you fail to see the fact that most Muslims are in desperate need to bring Issa back to this world in order to

 

[Angelos]

c) Break the cross , kill pigs and lead Islamic prayers…hopefully in Arabic.

 

[planten]

(Continued)

Jesus died

Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr, an 11th century Maliki jurist, writes that there have been differences of opinion on this issue[5] and Sunnis accept the second coming of Jesus only through individual reports by narrators who are of sound character - a view supported by majority of Muslims.[6]. (see Jesus’ second coming) However, some Islamic scholars like Sheikh Mohammed Al-Ghazali, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, and Amin Ahsan Islahi argue that Jesus was indeed rescued but was given death by God before he was ascended bodily as God never allows to dishonor His messengers, even their dead bodies.[7][1][8][9]

Verses used in support of the contention that Jesus died are listed below.

5.117
According to some translations, Jesus says in the Qur’an:

I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, (literally mutawafik) Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 5:117]

The majority of Muslims translate verb “mutawafik” (متوفيك) “to terminate a period of time” while others translate it “to die.” Islamic scholars like Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and Amin Ahsan Islahi consider it as physical death of Jesus, and hence question the return of Jesus.[7][8] Geoffrey Parrinder discusses different interpretations of the Qur’anic verse [Qur’an 19:33] and writes in his conclusion that ‘the cumulative effect of the Qur’anic verse is strongly in favor of a real death’.[10]

For understanding the traditional translation, see this article.

3.55

O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court…

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 3:55] as per QXP translation

The following translations or translators translate “to die” [11]

QXP translation
Muhammad Asad
George Sale
Mohamed Ahmed*
Maulana Muhammad Ali
Free Minds Muslims A Qur’an alone translation
JM Rodwell

However, majority of Quranic translators including Yusuf Ali, M. H. Shakir and Marmaduke William Pickthall, do not translate as “to die”.

3.144

According to Qur’an, every prophet (messenger) dies. However, this verse is still valid to Islamic view of Jesus, as he will descend before the Day of Judgment and die a natural death [12] (see second coming).

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him…

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 3:144]

Some of the companions thought that the Prophet was not dead. Abu Bakr went in, and seeing that life had departed, ascended the pulpit and read this verse, which had a magical effect upon his hearers, all of them being convinced that the Prophet had died, as all prophets had died before him. . . . This verse affords a conclusive proof that Jesus Christ was also dead; otherwise Abu Bakr’s argument could not have silenced the doubters of the Prophet’s death."

Esoteric interpretations

An alternative, more esoteric interpretation is expounded by certain Islamic philosophers and some Sufi and Isma’ili commentators. They interpret the Quranic passages on the death of Jesus thus: the Jews intended to destroy the person of Jesus completely; in fact, they crucified only his nasut (material being), his lahut (spiritual being) remained alive.[13]

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death

And there ya go, Islam’s view on Jesus’ death. The article on Islam’s view of Jesus himself is also very interesting and shows how Mohemmed really got his information wrong about Jesus. I wonder if the angel he was talking to got his sources wrong?

EDIT: It’s strange that Muslims ignore the fact that Jesus’ heart was pierced by a lance, and blood and water gushed out - which, in medical terms, means he died. However, the authors of the gospels wouldn’t have known that in their time. So, by all accounts, Jesus really did die on the Cross.

**Thanks for giving a good detail on the subject. The subject of Jesus dead or alive is very important for the three religions Judaism, christianity and Islam. The Quran denies the death of Jesus on the cross. The Quran also says that the Jews and the christians will (both) keep on believeibg that Jesus was killed on the cross. This is also proved correct even today. So Quran is right. The only part remains whether Jesus died on the cross or not.
That matter can be easily discussed and proved that Quran is again right. There is no use saying that a man died and later became alive. Why not to say that he had not really died? He was seen walking and talking after two days.
His body was pearced and blood and water gushed out. That also proves that he was alive. Blood does not gush out from a dead person.
That is when he was on the ground. If he died due to that pearcing then he did not die on the cross but he died on the ground. That would be another problem.

The Muslims of all sects believe that Jesus was not killed on the cross. There is no sect which believe that Jesus died on the cross. So that is final. However, one writer nazir Ahmed had written a book on the subject (similar to Ahmad deedat). The book title is “Jesus in heavens on Earth”. It should be available on the net. He has proved everything with references and photographs.

Whoever of the Muslims agreed that Jesus died a natural death, it meant that he survived te death on the cross but later died a natural death. There is a Hadith of the prophet Muhammad which says that Jesus lived a good life of about 120 years and that i will live a little more than about half of that (i.e. 60 years).
This matter (mystery) about Jesus life and death should be resolved**.

 

[dolphinlove]

Thanks for giving a good detail on the subject. The subject of Jesus dead or alive is very important for the three religions Judaism, christianity and Islam. The Quran denies the death of Jesus on the cross.

Well done, you already proved the quran is wrong in your opening statement!

The Quran also says that the Jews and the christians will (both) keep on believeibg that Jesus was killed on the cross. This is also proved correct even today. So Quran is right.

 

[swariffin]

His body was pearced and blood and water gushed out. That also proves that he was alive. Blood does not gush out from a dead person.
That is when he was on the ground. If he died due to that pearcing then he did not die on the cross but he died on the ground. That would be another problem.

Geez, my dear friend. Before I go further, what kind of bible did you read saying that Jesus was pearched on the ground?

 

[dolphinlove]

Geez, my dear friend. Before I go further, what kind of bible did you read saying that Jesus was pearched on the ground?

Its called the
“Islams version of the bible” written by Ihavent Got AClue

 

[Angelos]

Whoever of the Muslims agreed that Jesus died a natural death, it meant that he survived te death on the cross but later died a natural death. There is a Hadith of the prophet Muhammad which says that Jesus lived a good life of about 120 years and that i will live a little more than about half of that (i.e. 60 years).
This matter (mystery) about Jesus life and death should be resolved

.

Thanks for implying that Allah tells lies in the Koran because one of his allegations about Jesus is proven false if your reasoning is true:

Surah 5:110 O son of Mary! Remember how I restrained the children of Israel from harming thee

Why do you think Allah needed to deceive Jews and Christians alike by making Jesus pretend to be dead??? Why was Allah unable to prevent Jews from arresting and torturing Issa???

I have posted these questions for over five times now, but you have not answered me. I wonder why

 

[morning_star777]

Its called the
“Islams version of the bible” written by Ihavent Got AClue

lol.yes friend you are correct.islamic version of bible.surely new type of bible that our muslim fellows are reading.and the writer(named; ihavent Got Aclue)is also unique.nice post dear dolphinelove.congratulations. holy lord jesus bless you my friend.

 

[morning_star777]

Geez, my dear friend. Before I go further, what kind of bible did you read saying that Jesus was pearched on the ground?

my dear brother,ur question to our muslim fellows is really perfect.i also agree with dolphinlove.our muslim fellows are reading a new type of bible.the islamic version of bible written by" ihavent Got Aclue".realy funny&unique islamic bible!!holy lord jesus bless you my brother.

 

[dolphinlove]

lol.yes friend you are correct.islamic version of bible.surely new type of bible that our muslim fellows are reading.and the writer(named; ihavent Got Aclue)is also unique.nice post dear dolphinelove.congratulations. holy lord jesus bless you my friend.

Thank you my dear friend :hug1:
Anyway, im out of here for a little while. Im going to do adoration at my local church soon.
Ill be back on later most probably.

 

[morning_star777]

Thank you my dear friend :hug1:
Anyway, im out of here for a little while. Im going to do adoration at my local church soon.
Ill be back on later most probably.

you are most welcome my dear friend:hug1:.holy lord jesus bless you always.

 

[inJESUS]

Well if Platen does not believe God’s words, he must do a small reserach of the Christian symbols of the first and second century. But history is not something Muslims are fond of either.

 

[dolphinlove]

Well if Platen does not believe God’s words, he must do a small reserach of the Christian symbols of the first and second century. But history is not something Muslims are fond of either.

Planten has trouble reading the bible, giving him/her a history lesson… well… it would be like

 

[planten]

Geez, my dear friend. Before I go further, what kind of bible did you read saying that Jesus was pearched on the ground?

Swariffin, it appears that you have no knowledge of the christianity. I do not know what religon you belong. Please ask the christian friends when was the body of Jesus pearced by the soldier? When he was still on the cross or when he was taken down and layed on the ground? They will decide and tell us both. Please ask friends. Or you post the necessary information from the bible yourself to prove your point.

 

[planten]

Its called the
“Islams version of the bible” written by Ihavent Got AClue

You can also jump in to prove your point about the body of Jesus being pearced. When was it done? How was it done? You have no clue.