The Qu'ran has NO historical or literary influences?

[claymcdermott]

What do some Muslims mean when they say things that sound to me (some one who doesn’t know THAT much about Islam) like they are making the claim which is the title of this thread?
To me, it seems apparent that Mohammed, like all other authors, had influences, both theologically and literarily.
Do they mean that when God dictated the Qu’ran, he chose somene who already kinda got it, and communicated his message in a way which would be understandable to Mohammed, and therefore did it in a style which Mohammed would have apppreciated?

 

[drac16]

Well, Muhammad [peace be upon him] was unlearned. Prior to his first revelation, he didn’t know much about Judaism or Christianity. In his context, there were hardly any jews and christians-- it was an overwhelmingly pagan society. Muslims contend that Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot.

 

[KathleenGee]

We were taught he came across Jewish and Christian practices by those he encountered in commerce or contact with the Desert Fathers. Likewise his teachings…why would they come to the Jews and Christians, and then hundreds of years later, come about reflecting on some of the same parts, like Mary’s virginity or a little of Christ’s works or teachings but in such a different interpretation?

 

[Marie5890]

Well, Muhammad [peace be upon him] was unlearned. Prior to his first revelation, he didn’t know much about Judaism or Christianity. In his context, there were hardly any jews and christians-- it was an overwhelmingly pagan society. Muslims contend that Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot.

His first wife, Khadija bint Khuwaylid, a great deal his senior, was a Christian is my understanding.

 

[Marie5890]

Fr Pacwa is a highly educated Jesuit, speaking 12 different languages etc.
He has studied Islam indepth

stmarkbeaman.org/all/christianity-islam-are-we-at-war-by-father-mitch-pacwa-s-j/

 

[claymcdermott]

Thanks Marie; I am more aware of Islam than I am letting on apparently, and I am aware that early Muslim historians (as well as Maimonedes and John of Damascus I believe) say that he met with a Gnostic monk named Bahira who foretold him the sort of doctrine that he would tell.

And drac16, this is why I find the strong form of the “Qu’ran was without influences”
thing so odd. Early Islamic sources seem to be totally fine with the idea that Mohammed was chosen, perhaps in part, because he was prepared to hear the doctrine.

And also, the style of the Qu’ran reminds me of the pre-Islamic poetry I read while studying the Middle Ages in undergrad, and I can find critics who think the same. Plus, if it was largely oral, Mohammed wouldn’t have to be learned to hear about it.

When Catholics talk about miraculous images, or locutions, or visions involving symbolism, we say that they fit into the artistic sense of the community into which they came, so as to be intelligible to those receiving the message.
Doesn’t this understanding still allow for the idea that the Qu’ran was dictated by God to Mohammed?

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Marie for the link. I am a student of Fr Mitch Pacwa through EWTN’s ‘Threshold of Hope’. Excellent program.

 

[HelenRose]

Well, Muhammad [peace be upon him] was unlearned. Prior to his first revelation, he didn’t know much about Judaism or Christianity. In his context, there were hardly any jews and christians-- it was an overwhelmingly pagan society. Muslims contend that Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot.

This is assuming that the “unlearned” are stupid and unthinking and blind to the events around them.

I do not think Muhammad was blind, stupid or ignorant. He may have been unlearned but he was obviously intelligent and paid attention to the ideas that came his way.

 

[jakasaki]

Well, Muhammad [peace be upon him] was unlearned. Prior to his first revelation, he didn’t know much about Judaism or Christianity. In his context, there were hardly any jews and christians-- it was an overwhelmingly pagan society. Muslims contend that Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot.

This post is very troubling.

He worked for a wealthy woman in his 20’s taking her caravans around Arabia to trade goods. I’m sure inventory was kept and records of currency as well.

How can a “unlearned” person have such a high responsibility of goods & money.

Also, this issue with Mohammad not knowing much about Judaism & Christianity can not be true. Besides the many pagans he encountered, Medina was primarily a Jewish nation which before Mohammads time was called Yathirib.

 

[HelenRose]

It is a common mistake that city intellectuals make about country folk. I think of my father-in-law who was born in a small rural community in Western Colorado in 1917 . He was a farm boy, the middle child of 13 with a 7th grade, self taught and one of the smarted men I have ever known. I won’t go on about what he accomplished in life as a farmer but I would pit him against any intellectual who had the nerve to question his abilities and intelligence.

It shows great disrespect for the pagan, uneducated people of that time and region to assume that none of them had the capacity to think, learn and develop a new way of life.

I believe that the mistake that Mohammad is the same mistake many leaders, who desired peace, have made. He believed that if everyone believed the same thing people would quit fighting.

 

[drac16]

His first wife, Khadija bint Khuwaylid, a great deal his senior, was a Christian is my understanding.

Where did you hear that from? I’ve never heard that before.

This is assuming that the “unlearned” are stupid and unthinking and blind to the events around them.

I do not think Muhammad was blind, stupid or ignorant. He may have been unlearned but he was obviously intelligent and paid attention to the ideas that came his way.

I didn’t assume anything. He was unlearned in the sense that he didn’t know much about the Abrahamic faiths. He had no formal education either. He was far from stupid, though.

It is a common mistake that city intellectuals make about country folk. I think of my father-in-law who was born in a small rural community in Western Colorado in 1917 . He was a farm boy, the middle child of 13 with a 7th grade, self taught and one of the smarted men I have ever known. I won’t go on about what he accomplished in life as a farmer but I would pit him against any intellectual who had the nerve to question his abilities and intelligence.

It shows great disrespect for the pagan, uneducated people of that time and region to assume that none of them had the capacity to think, learn and develop a new way of life.

I believe that the mistake that Mohammad is the same mistake many leaders, who desired peace, have made. He believed that if everyone believed the same thing people would quit fighting.

What I think is disrespectful is to falsely accuse someone. Helen, if you put words in my mouth one more time, I will report you.

 

[HelenRose]

Where did you hear that from? I’ve never heard that before.

I didn’t assume anything. He was unlearned in the sense that he didn’t know much about the Abrahamic faiths. He had no formal education either. He was far from stupid, though.

What I think is disrespectful is to falsely accuse someone. Helen, if you put words in my mouth one more time, I will report you.

Dear Drac,

I am sorry that you took my remarks personally. I was not addressing my words to you directly. I was simply commenting on how some “intellectuals” often look at those who live and work in rural areas and often do not have formal educations. If you do not feel this way, I hope you will accept my apology.

 

[drac16]

Dear Drac,

I am sorry that you took my remarks personally. I was not addressing my words to you directly. I was simply commenting on how some “intellectuals” often look at those who live and work in rural areas and often do not have formal educations. If you do not feel this way, I hope you will accept my apology.

It’s water under the bridge. No problem.

 

[Marie5890]

Where did you hear that from? I’ve never heard that before.

I didn’t assume anything. He was unlearned in the sense that he didn’t know much about the Abrahamic faiths. He had no formal education either. He was far from stupid, though.

What I think is disrespectful is to falsely accuse someone. Helen, if you put words in my mouth one more time, I will report you.

The link I provided to Fr Mitch Pacwa’s article lays out the history.

 

[Nelka]

 

[drac16]

The link I provided to Fr Mitch Pacwa’s article lays out the history.

OK, thank you. I will read it. I remember Father Pacwa from a debate I watched.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, Muhammad [peace be upon him] was unlearned.

I do not pretend of having not heard this because this is often mentioned by Muslim apologists. I would like to go into this a bit more in the sense that what is the implication of Muhammad being unlearned? What is meant by ‘unlearned’? Does it mean uneducated? Simple (being like simple peasant)? Uninformed, et al?

Prior to his first revelation, he didn’t know much about Judaism or Christianity. In his context, there were hardly any jews and christians-- it was an overwhelmingly pagan society.

Was there strong evidence for this? As a poster said here, it was not likely that Muhammad did not encounter them in the process of his work and travel. As an outsider, it seems more likely that this point is being used to justify Muhammad as being unlearned.

Of course, there is no denying that later on he had a great deal of dealing with Christians and Jews.

Muslims contend that Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot.

This is only true if Muhammad was truly ‘unlearned’ with the given background. However, some of these claims (in the Quran) look very much like exaggerations, especially where Muslims say it (Quran) proves scientific theories. In my opinion those verses are just too vague to justify those claims, but this may be beside the point here.

On the other hand, “Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot”, if he was actually that unlearned. However, if he was not at the level of the unlearned being painted on him, then it would be one big fake and plagiarism. I am not saying that though. I just want to look into the possibility of some strong foundation and maybe evidence on how much unlearned Muhammad was, and what was that unlearned really meant.

 

[hasantas]

I do not pretend of having not heard this because this is often mentioned by Muslim apologists. I would like to go into this a bit more in the sense that what is the implication of Muhammad being unlearned? What is meant by ‘unlearned’? Does it mean uneducated? Simple (being like simple peasant)? Uninformed, et al?

Was there strong evidence for this? As a poster said here, it was not likely that Muhammad did not encounter them in the process of his work and travel. As an outsider, it seems more likely that this point is being used to justify Muhammad as being unlearned.

Of course, there is no denying that later on he had a great deal of dealing with Christians and Jews.

This is only true if Muhammad was truly ‘unlearned’ with the given background. However, some of these claims (in the Quran) look very much like exaggerations, especially where Muslims say it (Quran) proves scientific theories. In my opinion those verses are just too vague to justify those claims, but this may be beside the point here.

On the other hand, “Muhammad’s utterences were too accurate to have been made up or influenced by poetry and whatnot”, if he was actually that unlearned. However, if he was not at the level of the unlearned being painted on him, then it would be one big fake and plagiarism. I am not saying that though. I just want to look into the possibility of some strong foundation and maybe evidence on how much unlearned Muhammad was, and what was that unlearned really meant.

Shortly: Muhammad could not read or write and Muhammad had never study or said any poetry until revelation. All pagans were very amazed that how could Muhammad bring the most wonderful poets(according to them) in one night!

How many years a Christian scholar study to learn something in religion? Did Muhammad learn all this while he was a child and has met a monk for a short time and had learned whole Torah and Bible and others!

Islam is not consist of Torah and Bible. Islam correct the faults of Christians and Jews.

Muhammad had never commit a lie or evil deeds before revelation and after it. But someones claim that whole life of Muhammad was a lie! Should not that someone be in a big fault?

 

[hasantas]

We were taught he came across Jewish and Christian practices by those he encountered in commerce or contact with the Desert Fathers. Likewise his teachings…why would they come to the Jews and Christians, and then hundreds of years later, come about reflecting on some of the same parts, like Mary’s virginity or a little of Christ’s works or teachings but in such a different interpretation?

Why do you hold Torah by Bible? Did not Jesus some different things which is not in Torah?

Ofcourse there should be some monks around that places but if Muhammad had learnt from them but Pagans had known every details in life of Muhammad. Would not they say to Muhammad " You took these from Jews or Christians?". There were very more educated men around Muhammad who could find lies.

So Muhammad had learnt all Qur’an and Hadiths during caravans in desert? That does not sound logical. Even if Muhammad had met some very secret monks but would not someone know that? Just while Muhammad was child and that monk saw evidences of prophethood on Muhammad and warn to not continue on caravans because Jews were veryjealous and Jews were expect last prophet would emerge from Jews. Yet they had not accept Jesus.

I think the answer is hidden in Qur’an. Qur’an is miraculous at least by 40 sides. Just one side is it’s literature. Qur’an challenge for about 1400 years to bring something familiar to Qur’an if they do not believe Qur’an is not from God. If that were possible pagans had many poets and they would do immediately and would refute Muhammad but that was not possible and it is not for ever.

 

[hasantas]

This post is very troubling.

He worked for a wealthy woman in his 20’s taking her caravans around Arabia to trade goods. I’m sure inventory was kept and records of currency as well.

How can a “unlearned” person have such a high responsibility of goods & money.

Also, this issue with Mohammad not knowing much about Judaism & Christianity can not be true. Besides the many pagans he encountered, Medina was primarily a Jewish nation which before Mohammads time was called Yathirib.

So is a shepherd very educated? My father-in-law is not eduacated(cannot read or wrtie) but he trade with millions which is very far to me while I am a college man!

Muhammad was very trustful and had never commit treason and never lie. Muhammad had involved in Hılful Fudul while He was 20s in which just high people could join.

When someone ask a question Muhammad was uset to wait for revelation: Once some Jews came to Muhammad to test Him and asked some questions. Muhammad had not known the answers so Muhammad wanted time to answer. later Those verses were revealed:

85- And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, “The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.” Isra(17)

About People of Cave And Dhul Qarnayn The Sura Ashab-ı Kahf(18):

…
…
9-Or have you thought that the companions of the cave and the inscription were, among Our signs, a wonder?

10-[Mention] when the youths retreated to the cave and said, “Our Lord, grant us from Yourself mercy and prepare for us from our affair right guidance.”

11-So We cast [a cover of sleep] over their ears within the cave for a number of years.

…

83- And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about Dhul-Qarnayn. Say, “I will recite to you about him a report.”

84- Indeed We established him upon the earth, and We gave him to everything a way.

85- So he followed a way

86- Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, “O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness.”

…

and Jews in Medina did not hepl Muhammad but struggled against Him and Jews made many manipulations for Muhammad.