The Qu'ran has NO historical or literary influences?

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We were taught he came across Jewish and Christian practices by those he encountered in commerce or contact with the Desert Fathers. Likewise his teachings…why would they come to the Jews and Christians, and then hundreds of years later, come about reflecting on some of the same parts, like Mary’s virginity or a little of Christ’s works or teachings but in such a different interpretation?
Qur’an is miracle and has many miraculous attributes. Just one: Qur’an points scientific inventions just like electricity, planes etc. In that verses it points the phases of embryo in womb. There was no ultrasound in that times!

13- Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging.

14- Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators. Al-Mu’minun.

Another sample:

Persians had beaten Byzantium. Pagans said to Muslims how Persians(who were pagans) beat Byzantium(who were Christians people of scripture like Muslims) just like that We(Pagans) will beat you(Muslims).

Those werses were revealed:

1- Alif, Lam, Meem.

2- The Byzantines have been defeated

3- In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.

4- Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice

5- In the victory of Allah . He gives victory to whom He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful. ar-Rum (The Romans)(30)

Pagans did not believe that and one of them made bet with Abu Bakr for 100 camels and Abu Bakr won and because Romans defeated pagans Persians in very short time.

If Romans would not win then the Qur’an would be a lie. There are hundreds of cases which prophet Muhammad did prophecy before it happened. If one of these case would not happened then Muhammad would be liar but He was thaught by owner of eternal wisdom(God).
 
Yeah, hasantas, I don’t think you get what we’re saying.

What we’re saying is that Mohammed lived in a culture where he was exposed to Christianity and Judaism, and not even you seem to dispute that.

We are also saying that Mohammed would almost certainly have been exposed to the oral poetry of the culture in which he lived, and it is odd if he wasn’t, not only, but especially, because the Qu’ran is of that genre.

We are also saying that the religious and poetic literacy of common people who cannot read is often much higher than people think.

We aren’t saying it was made up because of this.

What I am saying is that, with what we know, it seems odd that some but not all Muslims claim that the Qu’ran had no influences.

God could have dictated the Qu’ran, choosing the person (Mohammed) to whom he would dictate it, because he was at least vaguely familiar with the story’s characters and major actions through exposure to Judaism and Christianity, so that this person could feasibly be expected to remember the details.
God may have wanted him to have been exposed to Christianity and Judaism, so that he could better, as you say, “correct their faults.”

Also, God may have chosen that form of oral poetry so popular in Mohammed’s time, *so that *Mohammed would be familiar with its style and *know how to use it *as a memory tool, which it has built-in.

Why does this cause so much concern? Why is it so important that the Qu’ran be totally otherworldly to some Muslims, when it, you know, any reader would say that it is clearly influenced by Earthly things contemporary to the time and place where the author lived, which could have been put there by God anyway?
 
I think there were many influences in Meccan society… from Ethiopia, the Byzantine Empire, the Sassanids. So there was a confluence of people… Jews, Christians, pagans, Zoroastrians. In His youth Muhammad lived a humble life as a shepherd and later as mentioned above went on caravan routes…

Arabic poetry was also an art form .

The issue though for me is that Muhammad received revelations following His retreats in a cave on Mount Hira overlooking Mecca…

These revelations were repeated over a twenty year span or so till the end of His life… His Companions memorized them and repeated them … regularly reciting them… this is how the Qur’an came about through a series of revelations and they had a social and historical context and power unlike anything that was known at the time.
 
Yeah, hasantas, I don’t think you get what we’re saying.

What we’re saying is that Mohammed lived in a culture where he was exposed to Christianity and Judaism, and not even you seem to dispute that.

We are also saying that Mohammed would almost certainly have been exposed to the oral poetry of the culture in which he lived, and it is odd if he wasn’t, not only, but especially, because the Qu’ran is of that genre.

We are also saying that the religious and poetic literacy of common people who cannot read is often much higher than people think.

We aren’t saying it was made up because of this.

What I am saying is that, with what we know, it seems odd that some but not all Muslims claim that the Qu’ran had no influences.

God could have dictated the Qu’ran, choosing the person (Mohammed) to whom he would dictate it, because he was at least vaguely familiar with the story’s characters and major actions through exposure to Judaism and Christianity, so that this person could feasibly be expected to remember the details.
God may have wanted him to have been exposed to Christianity and Judaism, so that he could better, as you say, “correct their faults.”

Also, God may have chosen that form of oral poetry so popular in Mohammed’s time, *so that *Mohammed would be familiar with its style and *know how to use it *as a memory tool, which it has built-in.

Why does this cause so much concern? Why is it so important that the Qu’ran be totally otherworldly to some Muslims, when it, you know, any reader would say that it is clearly influenced by Earthly things contemporary to the time and place where the author lived, which could have been put there by God anyway?
Islam is not consist or compound of Judaism and Christianity. Islam and Qur’an are distinct and different even though there should be familiars with them.

The miracles of Moses were kinds of magic because the magic was popular resort. And God gave Moses miracles through His stick(baton) but miracles of Moses were greater than magic so magicians could understand that it was not magic.

During Jesus times medical sciences were popular so the miracles of Jesus were kinds of medical but miracles were marvelous.

And during Muhammad times the poetry was popular.

Qur’an is not a poem but it is prose poem which is miraculous because nobody could/can compete. If it was kind of human made then someone other would could make out such thing. But nobody could do that and they tried to remove it by wars. If it had been possible to compete with Qur’an through poetry so pagans would do that and refute Qur’an.

So it was not a situation to be exposed by custom or Judaism or Christianity.

Qur’an have many variety knowledges just as astronomy, georaphy, physics, chemical, religious, morality, literature, social etc. Qur’an is at top point of every sciences. Qur’an points black holes, the orbits of stars, plates of earth, anatomy, etc. And also Qur’an hold knowledges of engineer which describe not only material universes but also the world beyond matter just like Hell and Heavens and Sidra and Arsh-i A’zam etc. All these knowledges exist in Qur’an as shortly.

Qur’an is a religious book for Muslims or who believe in which teach worship and mentioning and thinking of Allah and rules of Sharia etc.

And Qur’an is moral book by which millions of Avliyas reach the most high morality.

Qur’an is a wisdom book by which millions of scholars of Kalam who improve upon philosophers.

I can go more but that is enough I think.

Now you claim that Muhammad who could not read and write had learnt all those knowledges while He was in desert!

Did anybody have such knowledges during that times?
 
During Jesus times medical sciences were popular so the miracles of Jesus were kinds of medical but miracles were marvelous.
Jesus did miracles as His Work. Not for people to be amazed but so that people realize he was sent by His Father as Son of the Living God.

MJ
 
Jesus did miracles as His Work. Not for people to be amazed but so that people realize he was sent by His Father as Son of the Living God.

MJ
You are right.

Muhammad performed many miracles to prove that he was sent by God. That is the object of miracles. And Qur’an was one of that miracles.
 
You are right.

Muhammad performed many miracles to prove that he was sent by God. That is the object of miracles. And Qur’an was one of that miracles.
But That was after the true Miracle that Jesus showed that we can be with God where He is. Sharing in the Life of God.

Can there be a Greater Miracle?🙂

MJ
 
But That was after the true Miracle that Jesus showed that we can be with God where He is. Sharing in the Life of God.

Can there be a Greater Miracle?🙂

MJ
Jesus was great and nobody can deny that and our intend should not be to race miracles to each others. We can find very miraculous cases both in Jesus and Muhammad. Muslims can think that their prophet is more great and also Christians can think that Jesus was more gerat. And also Muslims believe in and are proud of Jesus ofcourse as a prophet. Muslims do not make distinction between prophets because all prophets were sent by God.

God is everywhere and the keypoint is either we are aware of that or not. And we can talk to God everytime by reading Qur’an because the words are directly from God.

I do not know what do you mean by “Sharing in the Life of God.” Muslims believe in what Jesus informed but Muslims do not follow some mysteries. With human nature Jesus was a prophet but beyond of that was a mystery which emerged and established later.

I think it is not useful to say my prophet(or God) was more great than yours. Prophets were belong to all believers but we choice to follow one.

You should be very happy to believe in Jesus and you should try very hard to follow His way. That may be your salvation but if you deny another prophet then there could be an objection for you.
 
Well, hasantas, I have trouble understanding some of your language, and I detect a not insignificant language barrier so I don’t know how helpful this conversation is - but suffice it to say that I don’t see how what you are saying is really inconsistent with what I am saying, except that somehow, to you, any kind of positive exposure to Judaism or Christianity which we all know he had, negates his status as a prophet. So too would even* i**ts style*, being influenced by the local poetic culture, apparently negate his prophethood.

I don’t think that logically follows, but fine. That is a leap I can’t get, but okay. Catholics don’t think that Jews’ influence by older Babylonian myths in the Exile, or their influence by Greek invaders during the Hellenic Empire, means that they were not receiving their messages from God, nor diminishes the significance of the Old Testament - but apparently, for fideistic reasons, this is a problem for some Muslims.

Fine, this is a sort of absolute doctrine to some Muslims. That is the answer to why it’s a problem.
 
How can they say it has no influences when clearly it has behind it the stories of Christianity and Judaism? We can see some gnostic influences in the story of Jesus creating life in a bird made out of clay. It would be difficult if not impossible to prove that the author of the Quran was not inspired by any story or religious tradition other than his own revelation.
 
I didn’t assume anything. He was unlearned in the sense that he didn’t know much about the Abrahamic faiths. He had no formal education either. He was far from stupid, though.
Untrue, his uncle’s friend and one of the people that helped raise his awareness of the spiritual was either a Syriac/Nestorian Christian, possibly a priest or monk. There is no chance he didn’t pick up much of the practices from Syriac Christianity - such as: prostrations, praying 7 (5 when two prayers are combined) times a day, covering the head while praying (Syriac priests/monks cover their head), the frequent use of Aramaic/Syriac in the Quran, even the growing of beard might be from the Syriac practice of priests/monks.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahira
 
So Muhammad had learnt all Qur’an and Hadiths during caravans in desert? That does not sound logical. Even if Muhammad had met some very secret monks but would not someone know that? Just while Muhammad was child and that monk saw evidences of prophethood on Muhammad and warn to not continue on caravans because Jews were veryjealous and Jews were expect last prophet would emerge from Jews. Yet they had not accept Jesus.

.
The same caravans muhammad raided?
 
Well, hasantas, I have trouble understanding some of your language, and I detect a not insignificant language barrier so I don’t know how helpful this conversation is - but suffice it to say that I don’t see how what you are saying is really inconsistent with what I am saying, except that somehow, to you, any kind of positive exposure to Judaism or Christianity which we all know he had, negates his status as a prophet. So too would even* i**ts style*, being influenced by the local poetic culture, apparently negate his prophethood.

I don’t think that logically follows, but fine. That is a leap I can’t get, but okay. Catholics don’t think that Jews’ influence by older Babylonian myths in the Exile, or their influence by Greek invaders during the Hellenic Empire, means that they were not receiving their messages from God, nor diminishes the significance of the Old Testament - but apparently, for fideistic reasons, this is a problem for some Muslims.

Fine, this is a sort of absolute doctrine to some Muslims. That is the answer to why it’s a problem.
For a prophet it is not possible to be influenced by the local culture in religion especially in scripture because Qur’an is directly words of God and it is so comic to claim such thing. You confuse Qur’an with Bible which was not recorded by Jesus directly.

A religion or a culture could be influnced by others by time but it is not true to say prophet was influenced. Instead that directly say “I do not believe in Muhammad”
 
The same caravans muhammad raided?
What? Do not forget that Muhammad was not just a prophet but also He was president of Islamic state and was commander-in-chief of Islamic army. So you can criticise Him in that manner. And do not say but Jesus did not such thing!

Jesus did not establish a state and there were no many believers during His life. Islam does not just interest in morality but Islam also arrange the material life.

Pagans and Muslims were in war so both sides tried to harm each others. Muslims were got out from Mecca by Pagans and Muslims raided Pagans caravans to harm them. If you say why did Muslims not allow Pagans to kill all believers(Muslims)?

I have no answer.
 
What? Do not forget that Muhammad was not just a prophet but also He was president of Islamic state and was commander-in-chief of Islamic army. So you can criticise Him in that manner. And do not say but Jesus did not such thing!

Jesus did not establish a state and there were no many believers during His life. Islam does not just interest in morality but Islam also arrange the material life.

Pagans and Muslims were in war so both sides tried to harm each others. Muslims were got out from Mecca by Pagans and Muslims raided Pagans caravans to harm them. If you say why did Muslims not allow Pagans to kill all believers(Muslims)?

I have no answer.
To tell you the truth, politicians often are not credible and give bad examples. For that matter I find it hard to trust politicians.
 
What? Do not forget that Muhammad was not just a prophet but also He was president of Islamic state and was commander-in-chief of Islamic army. So you can criticise Him in that manner. And do not say but Jesus did not such thing!

Jesus did not establish a state and there were no many believers during His life. Islam does not just interest in morality but Islam also arrange the material life.

Pagans and Muslims were in war so both sides tried to harm each others. Muslims were got out from Mecca by Pagans and Muslims raided Pagans caravans to harm them. If you say why did Muslims not allow Pagans to kill all believers(Muslims)?

I have no answer.
There’s a guy named Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, that claimed the same nonsense. He and his followers tried to set up a theocratic Mormon state within the United States - one fringe of his followers today have even taken over a federal facility in an armed rebellion. Crackpots.
 
hasantas, again, if we suppose that God speaks to people in ways they will understand, would he not have spoken to Mohammed in a way Mohammed would have understood, as someone who had been exposed to Judaism, Christianity, and the local poetic style?

So, maybe I should say, would not God take into account Mohammed’s influences in order to communicate with him?
 
For a prophet it is not possible to be influenced by the local culture in religion especially in scripture because Qur’an is directly words of God and it is so comic to claim such thing. You confuse Qur’an with Bible which was not recorded by Jesus directly.

A religion or a culture could be influnced by others by time but it is not true to say prophet was influenced. Instead that directly say “I do not believe in Muhammad”
The problem is the claim of the quran being “directly words of God”. The writers of the quran were muhammads sahabas or caliph Uthman . Muhammad who heard the word dictated to him. When it was written only muhammad can check on it to be able to say whether it was written correctly or not.
Muhammad. It is believed that the Birmingham quran was produced between 568AD and 645AD, while the dates usually given for muhammad are between 570AD and 632AD. ‘This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the quran’s genesis, like that muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven
 
What? Do not forget that Muhammad was not just a prophet but also He was president of Islamic state and was commander-in-chief of Islamic army. So you can criticise Him in that manner. And do not say but Jesus did not such thing!

Jesus did not establish a state and there were no many believers during His life. Islam does not just interest in morality but Islam also arrange the material life.

Pagans and Muslims were in war so both sides tried to harm each others. Muslims were got out from Mecca by Pagans and Muslims raided Pagans caravans to harm them. If you say why did Muslims not allow Pagans to kill all believers(Muslims)?

I have no answer.
You say muhammad was the commander-in-chief of an islamic state. What does that tell you about being " prophet" and spreading the word of allah? There is much speculation as to why he raided caravans …pretty much all reasons are to fund his cause .
 
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