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Ridgerunner
Guest
Mormons claim the very same thing about the Book of Mormon. All new, nothing derivative, despite the fact that you can go through page after page of it in which it paraphrases the Bible.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Some people consider the quran as being two books. Depending on which time period it was written.The Mecca quran was all about tolerance, tranquility, spirituality, acceptance, and inner cleansing through submission to the word of allah. This earlier part of the quran also dictated many of the rules that individual muslims must perform and abide in their day-to-day lives. In my most humble opinion the Mecca quran formed a basis for a religion that bridged some of the gaps and controversies between the Christians and the Jews.
Medina period, the life for muhammad and his followers was difficult as they faced a shortage of food as they had yet to become financially solvent within the society of Medina. This was resolved when muhammad not only allowed for the raiding of the trade caravans, but blessed the actions and praised the raiders. This combined with the rejection of the teaching proselytized by muhammad by much of the Jewish tribes in Medina gave way to escalating violence. This Medina quran also incorporated much of the moral blessings of violence and caravan raiding taken from the Arab tribes who thrived on these ventures. This lead to many of these tribes adopting this newer form of islam as dictated by muhammad thus supplying muhammad with a sizeable army at his command.
Medina period, the life for muhammad and his followers was difficult as they faced a shortage of food as they had yet to become financially solvent within the society of Medina. This was resolved when muhammad not only allowed for the raiding of the trade caravans, but blessed the actions and praised the raiders. This combined with the rejection of the teaching proselytized by muhammad by much of the Jewish tribes in Medina gave way to escalating violence. This Medina quran also incorporated much of the moral blessings of violence and caravan raiding taken from the Arab tribes who thrived on these ventures. This lead to many of these tribes adopting this newer form of islam as dictated by muhammad thus supplying muhammad with a sizeable army at his command.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
And under the “Doctrine of Abrogation” which all four major Sunni schools accept, Muslims are required to follow the later Medina instructions. They are excused only if the infidels are too strong. Undoubtedly many pray for the infidels to remain strong so they don’t have to engage in violent jihad. ISIS, of course, is trying to demonstrate that the infidels are weak enough to challenge. That’s why it advertises its horrific acts.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
That reminds me of the divisions of the world in islam “Dar al-Islam” and “Dar al-Harab”
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hasantas
Guest
Just Ha Ha Ha Ha …
Obstinacy make man blind!
Perhaps it was written in 645 why do you think in 568? Carbon test give a conclusion by (645-568) 77 error or probality!
And you claim that the basis of Qur’an was exist before Muhammad? Why did nobody know? Everyone was amazed when they heard Qur’an. Did just Muhammad know that? Or do you claim some Sahabas knew then why Pagan did not know? Whou you name Sahabas were Pagans before Muhammad and most of them was enemy of Islam before being Islam. It was very well known to whom a poem was belong to. So why did not anybody know Qur’an.
It is really very comic to claim such thing.
I said if you do not believe then say it directly. But do not be comic!
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hasantas
Guest
The style and sort of Qur’an is different and unequaled and miraculous. Nobody could compete with Qur’an. Ofcourse God would speak in way they(human) will understand but God was not exposed to local poetic. Are you aware of what you claim?
Revelation was above all inspiration. Muhammad had inspirations in many ways add to revelation. Hadiths are kinds of such inspirations. There are some difficult parts to understand in Qur’an which was never being heard formerly but Muhammad could understand those because when Sahabas ask He could answer.
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claymcdermott
Guest
hasantas, the Qu’ran does indeed fit into a larger genre, and despite what you frequently her from Muslim apologists, texts that fit somewhere between prose and poetry are pretty common. Milton, Homer, etc.
Anyway, are you aware of the scholars who see local influences on the still very uniquely voiced Qu’ran?
And look, Wes Anderson is a pretty unique auteur but I can still identify influences.
Anyway, Catholics have no problem with the idea that God communicates to people in art forms which would have been significant to them. Look at the Lady of Guadalupe - we say it’s from God and it clearly fits into the tradition of Spanish colonial santos. We are totally fine with the idea that God allows the manner in which his revelation is expressed to be influenced by what the people to whom he gives it are receptive to.
Anyway, are you aware of the scholars who see local influences on the still very uniquely voiced Qu’ran?
And look, Wes Anderson is a pretty unique auteur but I can still identify influences.
Anyway, Catholics have no problem with the idea that God communicates to people in art forms which would have been significant to them. Look at the Lady of Guadalupe - we say it’s from God and it clearly fits into the tradition of Spanish colonial santos. We are totally fine with the idea that God allows the manner in which his revelation is expressed to be influenced by what the people to whom he gives it are receptive to.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Compared to what?
Nobody or no writing? Of course people are not texts. An artist could say each snowflask is different and unequaled and miraculous. We say Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is the different, unequaled, and miraculous in relation to anything created. Even the Church, created by God for the salvation of man, is different, unequaled and miraculous - the divine aspect of the Church anyhow.
God was not exposed to local poetic?? What does that mean?
Or he made them up as he found fit and people accepted them since he was the “commander in chief”
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hasantas
Guest
Compared to previous and next texts. If Qur’an had been words of Muhammad it would be similar or equal to others but it was above all. And if Qur’an was not words of God some of the next texts would improve upon Qur’an but non achieved for about 1400 years.
But a product or an art which made by human can be improved upon by time. A snowflake is art of God but not human’s.
Jesus was was wonderful because He was a prophet.
Church was not established by God but by people so Churh could make many mistakes. If you say Church was made by God but people see the faults in Church and so they can have suspicions about faith!
I mean Qur’an was words of God. So Qur’an poetry could not be familiar with humanbeing as it is.
That is your thought. You have a free will.
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hasantas
Guest
When someone says that Qur’an was influenced by local poetry that mean as if Muhmmad had made it. But that is not rue. Otherwise it is possible that Qur’an may have some similarity with others and that make it easy to understand.
There should be texts in prose poetry but what I mean Qur’an was not exposed from local poetry because it was not written by Muhammad. It was revealed.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Hasantas,
If different, then Allah and Muhammed are for Middle Eastern people.
So how did Palestinian, Syrian, Egyptian, and others who were once teeming Christian populations change???
If different, then Allah and Muhammed are for Middle Eastern people.
So how did Palestinian, Syrian, Egyptian, and others who were once teeming Christian populations change???
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KathleenGee
Guest
Again, how did teeming Christian populations disappear and become Muslim?
I must include here later those Christians of Asia Minor, – Anatolia --, Constantinople, Smyrna??
What is plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt who have kept their faith for 2,000 years?
Why so many prophesies in the Jewish Old Testament who foretold the coming of the Messiah, not a last prophet??
I must include here later those Christians of Asia Minor, – Anatolia --, Constantinople, Smyrna??
What is plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt who have kept their faith for 2,000 years?
Why so many prophesies in the Jewish Old Testament who foretold the coming of the Messiah, not a last prophet??
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Reuben_J
Guest
I think that is merely subjective assessment.
Have you read the Psalms of the Bible? Have you gone through Paul’s letter to the Ephesians? I think these are simply beautiful, in their words and phrases and much more beautiful than the Quran. In fact, no other texts and literatures ever exist that could match them in beauty. In fact the whole of the Bible, is simply beautiful beyond comparison. **Their beauty just not lies on just the words therein, but the wonders and liberating power that those words can have on their listeners. **
But of course, that is just my opinion, which I believe from the deepest of my heart. The latter, is from my experience.
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hasantas
Guest
Disparity of Qur’an gives an idea that Qur’an was not influenced so it is not made up by Muhammad.
Everybody can understand Qur’an from a professor to an ordinary man. Because there are all understanding levels in Qur’an.
Qur’an is for all humanbeing even for Jinns too. Before Muhammad a prophet was used to be sent for his tribe and people but Muhammad was sent for all nations.
Qur’an has very depth fact that effect very much. You cannot impose a religion for centuries if that religion has not a fact.
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hasantas
Guest
Christianity has a very powerful fact so Christians could stand but Islam is more powerful.
There are many verses in both Torah and Bible which foretell Muhammad.
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hasantas
Guest
Do you know very young child can memorise whole Qur’an? Why?I think that is merely subjective assessment.
Have you read the Psalms of the Bible? Have you gone through Paul’s letter to the Ephesians? I think these are simply beautiful, in their words and phrases and much more beautiful than the Quran. In fact, no other texts and literatures ever exist that could match them in beauty. In fact the whole of the Bible, is simply beautiful beyond comparison. **Their beauty just not lies on just the words therein, but the wonders and liberating power that those words can have on their listeners. **
But of course, that is just my opinion, which I believe from the deepest of my heart. The latter, is from my experience.
Because Qur’an is nutrition for souls and mind.
A patient recover from an illness by listening to Qur’an.
Qur’an sustains all moral senses and powers.
There should be some beauties in Torah and Bible because of revelation but the revelation in Qur’an is most high. I can explain that fact with some Islamic terms.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Christianity is to live out compassion for all in humble service. This is the means many times people convert.
In contrast, Islam expands through warfare.
Two contrary modes and killing and wiping out peoples, and enforcing dhimmitude does indeed decrease Christian populations, with no mercy.
Asia minor, Anatolia, was the center of Eastern Christian orthodoxy. It two generations of dimmitude where Christians were second class and now poor, finally submitted to Islam simply to live.
Islam began in the desert. It went into countries where people had a different livelihood and resources, and Islam absorbed them. But without these conquests, Islam would be still in the desert.
Sunni Shi ites have been fighting since practically the beginning and no resolution. Now both want to destroy each other.
You are not facing the reality of the consistency of faith and morality going back to the ancient Jews. Your manner of interpretation of Sacred Scriptures comes out not at all as we understand, which is dangerous and causes alot of problems.
The bible and Christian practices were obviously added to the Quoran, but same problem, twisting events around to fit the geographic condition.
If Muslims would see the beliefs of Christianity on its own, as we are meant to understand them, then this world would be better.
But to say that Islam is more powerful, it is only because of the manner Islam spreads and likewise misrepresents our faith.
I see today on youtube 152 Orthodox churches destroyed by Albanian Muslims. I see today Muslims marching preparing for conflict next to a Catholic cathedral in Italy. The staged sex abuse throughout Europe. This is only the beginning. It is evil. That is not power but from the devil.
In contrast, Islam expands through warfare.
Two contrary modes and killing and wiping out peoples, and enforcing dhimmitude does indeed decrease Christian populations, with no mercy.
Asia minor, Anatolia, was the center of Eastern Christian orthodoxy. It two generations of dimmitude where Christians were second class and now poor, finally submitted to Islam simply to live.
Islam began in the desert. It went into countries where people had a different livelihood and resources, and Islam absorbed them. But without these conquests, Islam would be still in the desert.
Sunni Shi ites have been fighting since practically the beginning and no resolution. Now both want to destroy each other.
You are not facing the reality of the consistency of faith and morality going back to the ancient Jews. Your manner of interpretation of Sacred Scriptures comes out not at all as we understand, which is dangerous and causes alot of problems.
The bible and Christian practices were obviously added to the Quoran, but same problem, twisting events around to fit the geographic condition.
If Muslims would see the beliefs of Christianity on its own, as we are meant to understand them, then this world would be better.
But to say that Islam is more powerful, it is only because of the manner Islam spreads and likewise misrepresents our faith.
I see today on youtube 152 Orthodox churches destroyed by Albanian Muslims. I see today Muslims marching preparing for conflict next to a Catholic cathedral in Italy. The staged sex abuse throughout Europe. This is only the beginning. It is evil. That is not power but from the devil.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
are you joking or being serious? This argument is comical
I know people that are perfectly healthy that become ill listening to the same thing.
lol, you can use any propaganda you want, it won’t convince anyone but yourself
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SyroMalankara
Guest
The one’s referring to false prophets or those against the Children of God come to mind for some reason
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Hasantas you bring up the argument that the quantity is utterly unique and nothing can compare to it. How do you determine this with any objectivity? Is there an objective way one can craft a work so as to make such a work perfect and if there is such a way what is it? What are the rules that the Quran adheres to and others cannot?
What makes the language of the Quran objectively better than the letters of Saint Paul, the orations of St Gregory, the homilies of Saint John Chrysostom, the works of Shakespeare or Doestoyvesky?
On a subjective level I can understand why, perhaps judging the Quran according the content of its teachings, I might even admit generally the Quran is Beautiful (though I do not know that to be the case), but to demonstrate that it is so perfect that none other than the Divine had a hand in it seems an impossible task.
What makes the language of the Quran objectively better than the letters of Saint Paul, the orations of St Gregory, the homilies of Saint John Chrysostom, the works of Shakespeare or Doestoyvesky?
On a subjective level I can understand why, perhaps judging the Quran according the content of its teachings, I might even admit generally the Quran is Beautiful (though I do not know that to be the case), but to demonstrate that it is so perfect that none other than the Divine had a hand in it seems an impossible task.
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