The Quran says...so why is it not followed?

[Reuben_J]

Darrel:

It’s amazing,

Over a billion people follow the teaching of a man who did not lead by example in the words allegedly given to him by God himself. Every time I turn around the evidence against the validity of Islam is reinforced by both current events of attrocity and studying the blatent hypocrasy of the original founder of Islam.

I mean no disrespect to anyone here who is Islamic seeking unity with God. I find that asparation to be nobel. In all honesty Islamic people need to face the truth that a man has decieved there hearts. Jesus did not just talk the talk he walked the walk. There is no sin in questioning the truth of a prophets validity. If Christ had 15 wives I would question him. Why did muhammed do such things if the Quran says not to as the thread is titled?

-D

Well spoken.

I could go on and on to give you more examples of contradiction but you seemed to be convinced yourself.

You don’t get to ask those questions if you’re studying in an Islamic Universities in Islamic countries. As a result, students just learn and follow but not able to hear opposing views. Worse still, in such institutions, ones can get easily brainwashed by exposing them to what the lecturers want them to listen to. And they have lots of that materials in the Quran. So, that’s how you get suicide bombers and extremism.

P/S
BTW, it’s 13 wives. One while in Mecca (Khadija) and 12 after the hijra while in Medina. Islamic history will tell you that lots of changes in the life and policy of Muhammad and new contradictory revelations of Quran in some 8 years in Medina.

 

[Reuben_J]

Darrel:

It’s amazing,
Why did muhammed do such things if the Quran says not to as the thread is titled?
-D

I say not exactly.

But Quranic revelations seemed to solve the predicaments or answer the ambitions that Muhammad seemed to slant to. Be it in war or about women.

It’s too much a coincidence and at times opposed current Islamic laws and practices, where verses relevant to such practices would be abrogated and new Quranic revelations superceded them.

 

[Edris]

“Qur’an is the only religion on the face of the earth that allows men having up till four wives, Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.” Al-Qur’an (4:3)

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had many wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

So, Islam came to control having an infinite number of wives, like it was during the Pre-Islamic era.

In the same chapter Allah says in Surah Nisa verse 129, Allah says:

“You will never be able to be fair and just among women (wives)…” Qur’an (4:129)

Hence, Islam does allow having more than one wife, yet it has set conditions for that, which is that the husband should be fair with all his wives, and treat them equally, which is very difficult.

When non-Muslims hear about Prophet Mohammad’s multiple wives, they might conclude without much thought that he was a sensuous man. But the truth is that Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was married to only one woman, Khadijah. He remained devoted to her from age 24 to 50. Only after her death, did the Prophet marry other women. The reason behind the Prophet (PBUH) marrying more than one wife was to spread Islam, and help the Islamic message to reach out to the world.

It is obvious that if he was after physical pleasure, he didn’t have to wait until he was more than fifty years old to start marrying other wives. His later marriages were for various reasons, some marriages were with the view to help widows whose husbands had been killed for the sake of Islam, others were to cement relationships with devoted followers like Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq, may Allah be pleased with him. Some of his marriages were to build strong relations with various tribes that were at war with Muslims. In brief, Prophet Mohammad’s marriages always had Islamic motives.

Some of the non-Muslims misunderstand polygyny and claim that it is one of the negative aspects of Islam, but in fact Islam sought to control and regulate the number of wives rather than give free license. And the permission given to men to have more than one wife is controlled with the conditions Allah has set before marrying another wife.”

The prophet pbuh was given special permissions to do so, and it was for the sake of Islam. Like for example, fighting is not allowed in the sanctuary of Makkah, But Allah (swt) gave the prophet pbuh a permission to fight there just for a portion of day, to clean and purify Makkah from the Idols. And the Prophet pbuh was able to do so in less than a day, and without taking the life of one single person from the disbelievers of Quraish.

Also the Prophet pbuh gave his wives the choice to stay with him or to be free and they all chose to stay with him.

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Say to your wives: If you desire the life of this world, and its glitter, Then come! I will make a provision for you and set you free in a handsome manner (divorce)” (Qur’an 33:28)

Why would the Prophet pbuh set a limit, if before Islam it was unlimited, he could’ve married as much women as he wanted. We know the reasons behind each marriage.

 

[Edris]

Karin:

I am a bit confused here…the Quran in several Sura’s states that Muslims do not believe the Bible is corrupt but a true revelation of God (Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11)…so why is it that modern day Muslims view the Bible as corrupt?

It (the Quran) also states that NO ONE can change the Word of God **(**Sura 6:34:And certainly apostles before you were rejected, but they were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah, and certainly there has come to you ** some information about the messengers.)

---

The Quran also states that a true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God **(**Sura 4:136:*O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
****Sura 29:46:***And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit )

---

I don’t see why you are confused, we believe in the Gospel of Jesus, we believe in the Torah of Moses and the Psalms of David. But the books you have now are far from the originals.

The Qur’an keeps talking about the Gospel that was revealed on Jesus pbuh, what you have now is the Gospel of John, the Gospel of Mathew, the Gospel of Luke, and the Gospel of Mark. But nowhere you see is the Gospel of Jesus.

As for no one can change the word of Allah (swt), this verse refers to the Qur’an. Also Allah (swt) protected the scriptures during the lives of the messengers that were reavled upon. The Qur’an is the only book that Allah (swt) promised to protect till the judgement day.

So we (ie. muslims) believe in the original scriptures, not the ones you have now. If someone wrote a book now and said this is from the scripture, am i obliged to believe in it, of course not. Same is the bible, you find names of people who has nothing to do with religion. You also have so many versions of the bible. Even the Christians themselves have disagreement on the number of books found in todays bibles. I can bring you many examples of verses that has changed in todays versions of the bible.
jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

Peace

 

[George_Waters]

As I have not yet learned how to quote only certain sections of a thread, please bear with me. All quoted material is from Edris on post #23 of this thread. Thanks.

“Qur’an is the only religion on the face of the earth that allows men having up till four wives…”

According to the arguments of some on this forum since Christians are the only ones to believe in the Trinity, that in itself is proof that we are wrong. Can I apply the same logic to Islam in this regard?

“The reason behind the Prophet (PBUH) marrying more than one wife was to spread Islam, and help the Islamic message to reach out to the world.”

“In brief, Prophet Mohammed’s marriages always had Islamic motives.”

So the ends justify the means? It’s OK for you to go against your own teachings to others if it is for a good reason? That seems a lot like the psychological “game” of “Yes, but…”

“Some of the non-Muslims misunderstand polygyny and claim that it is one of the negative aspects of Islam, but in fact Islam sought to control and regulate the number of wives rather than give free license. And the permission given to men to have more than one wife is controlled with the conditions Allah has set before marrying another wife.”

I am certainly not a cultural anthropologist, but everything I have read seems to indicate that only the wealthy could even afford to have multiple wives. It seems this is a condition that effects only a minority and not the majority of people anyway. I do not blame Islam for polygamy. It was around long before Islam. I am skeptical as to why Islam allowed the practice to continue however.

“Also the Prophet pbuh gave his wives the choice to stay with him or to be free and they all chose to stay with him.”

Be the wife of the prophet with all the perks for the rest of your life or receive a divorce and reward in the hope that you can marry another man who will support a socio-economic lifestyle equal to the prophet? Where’s the choice? You said the marriages where for various reasons and I am sure socio-economics would be considered a valid choice.

George

 

[George_Waters]

Edris,

If Muslims only believe in the “original scriptures” can any of the originals be produced to show evidence of later tampering? If you don’t have an undisputed original how can you definatively say what has, or has not, been altered? Because the Quran says so? “If someone wrote a book now and said this is from the scripture, am i obliged to believe in it, of course not.”

Yes Christians disagree over the number of books in the Bible. Don’t the Shia disagree that Allah’s message was even originally intended for Mohammed?

George

 

[r.gonzales]

Reuben J:

Yes, Ibn Kathir also produced a massive work that described the history of the world from the Islamic point of view, starting with creation and ending just before the author’s death in a.h. 774. the work in question, *the Beginning and the End * is a nine-volume set is not available in English.

yes, he produced this work… what does that have to do with Quranic exegesis or books of hadeeth? history books are not considered books of hadeeth.
Reuben J:

Although these books do not have the same reverence as the correct books of hadith, they are useful in supplying information about Muhammad.

aside from being a scholar of Quranic exegesis and islamic history, ibn katheer was also a scholar of hadeeth. the information contained in his history books aren’t to be taken as being 100% correct - and he himself will mention the weakness or authenticity of the narrations he presents. and as is known in the islamic science of hadeeth, weak narrations are not used as proof.

this is one of the places where orientalists usually err - as more often than not, they know next to nothing about the science of hadeeth and cannot make heads or tails of the comments that ibn katheer makes regarding a particular narration’s authenticity or regarding the conditions of narrators in a particular narration’s chain.

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

According to the arguments of some on this forum since Christians are the only ones to believe in the Trinity, that in itself is proof that we are wrong. Can I apply the same logic to Islam in this regard?

No, you can’t apply the same logic here. I was discussing marriage; this has to do with laws and laws change. For example in the time of Prophet Adam pbuh his children where allowed to marry each other (i.e. a man was allowed to marry his sister) or else the human race could not continue. In our time it’s forbidden for a man to marry his sister. Also the Jews where forbidden to eat some foods, when Jesus pbuh was sent to them he made lawful some of the things that where forbidden. “And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord So fear Allâh and obey me” (Qur’an 3:50). The trinity on the other hand has to do with the core of the religion, the God we worship, all religions worshiped God alone, no son, no Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel) as God, then suddenly in Christianity, all this changed, turned out God had a son, and Angel Gabriel also turned out to be God. Islam the religion that came after Christianity preached the monotheistic religion again. So the only religion that has trinity in it is Christianity
George Waters:

So the ends justify the means? It’s OK for you to go against your own teachings to others if it is for a good reason? That seems a lot like the psychological “game” of “Yes, but…”

Again you’re making another mistake based on the assumption that the Qur’an was made by Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself. And that the decisions he made regarding marriage was of his own. Muhammad pbuh was married to only one woman, Khadeejah (may God bless her) for over 25 years. After the Islam, things changed. The teachings of Islam came from Allah (swt) and as I said before, Allah (swt) made some exceptions to the Prophet pbuh for reasons we know and reasons we don’t know. At the end of the day, he’s a prophet, not just any Muslim. Not all the Christians ascended to heaven with Jesus pbuh and not all the Jews were able to split the sea apart. On the other hand we (Muslims) are commanded to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad pbuh in everything, Except for the things that Allah (swt) mentioned in the Qur’an (that He made exceptions for the Prophet and not for the rest of the believers to follow). I gave you an example before, that the Prophet pbuh was given a permission from Allah (swt) to fight in the sanctuary of Makkah for only a portion of a day. No other Muslim is allowed to fight there. As for the verse that talks about the exception given to the Prophet pbuh regarding marriage here it is “O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those whom your right hand possesses - whom Allâh has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammah (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khâl (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khâlah (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her; a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those whom their right hands possess, - in order that there should be no difficulty on you And Allâh is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 33:50)

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

I am certainly not a cultural anthropologist, but everything I have read seems to indicate that only the wealthy could even afford to have multiple wives. It seems this is a condition that effects only a minority and not the majority of people anyway. I do not blame Islam for polygamy. It was around long before Islam. I am skeptical as to why Islam allowed the practice to continue however.

This is one good example where Islam proves to be a religion for every time and place. Here are some benefits for polgyny:

• Statistics in many countries show that the number of women outnumbers men, specially in times of war. Therefore, it serves both a social and a moral function to include these surplus women, some of whom are perhaps widows with children, in a normal family unit. Also to protect these women from forbidden desires.

• The chronic illness of a wife, whether in mind or body, or her extreme age, could make it difficult for her to maintain a household, care for her children, and care for her husband and his property. It could be of great help to her to have another woman’s assistance.

• The moderate sexual needs of a woman may not meet the stronger need of her husband.

• If a wife is barren and unable to bear children, an alternative to divorce and far more preferable, is polygamy.

• Increasing the number of offspring will strengthen the nation and increase the number of workers in it, which will raise its economic standard – if the leaders run the affairs of state well and make use of its resources in a proper manner. The number of offspring gained through plural marriage will be greater than that achieved through marriage to one wife.

As for only the wealthy could afford to have multiple wives. You have a point there, yes I guess you’re right. Allah (swt) also mentioned that in the Qur’an.

“And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allâh enriches them of His Bounty…” (Qur’an 24:33)

 

[Reuben_J]

yes, he produced this work… what does that have to do with Quranic exegesis or books of hadeeth? history books are not considered books of hadeeth.

I’m just supporting what you said. Not all that what I have to say are against your views. Ibn Kathir’s work is helpful source to know more about the life of the prophet, understanding Quran and Hadith. I gone thru some of those myself.

aside from being a scholar of Quranic exegesis and islamic history, ibn katheer was also a scholar of hadeeth. the information contained in his history books aren’t to be taken as being 100% correct - and he himself will mention the weakness or authenticity of the narrations he presents. and as is known in the islamic science of hadeeth, weak narrations are not used as proof.

Yes

this is one of the places where orientalists usually err - as more often than not, they know next to nothing about the science of hadeeth and cannot make heads or tails of the comments that ibn katheer makes regarding a particular narration’s authenticity or regarding the conditions of narrators in a particular narration’s chain.

At least you got to hear views of different thoughts.

I don’t consider myself orientalists but learn quite a lot on the science of hadith. It’s generalisation, though, to say others are too ignorant to square up to you.

Discussion can be fruitful if there is respect for another’s ideas eventhough we don’t agree with them.

 

[Reuben_J]

Edris:

This is one good example where Islam proves to be a religion for every time and place. Here are some benefits for polgyny:

• Statistics in many countries show that the number of women outnumbers men, specially in times of war. Therefore, it serves both a social and a moral function to include these surplus women, some of whom are perhaps widows with children, in a normal family unit. Also to protect these women from forbidden desires.

• The chronic illness of a wife, whether in mind or body, or her extreme age, could make it difficult for her to maintain a household, care for her children, and care for her husband and his property. It could be of great help to her to have another woman’s assistance.

• The moderate sexual needs of a woman may not meet the stronger need of her husband.

• If a wife is barren and unable to bear children, an alternative to divorce and far more preferable, is polygamy.

• Increasing the number of offspring will strengthen the nation and increase the number of workers in it, which will raise its economic standard – if the leaders run the affairs of state well and make use of its resources in a proper manner. The number of offspring gained through plural marriage will be greater than that achieved through marriage to one wife.

As for only the wealthy could afford to have multiple wives. You have a point there, yes I guess you’re right. Allah (swt) also mentioned that in the Qur’an.

“And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allâh enriches them of His Bounty…” (Qur’an 24:33)

Yes. Very human.

Frankly speaking, Islam is quite attractive as quite a lot of my human’s life dilemma would be solved.

I’m still a Christian though, because I still hang to God’s word and the revelation of the ancient prophet, Isaiah : “My thoughts are not like yours, and my ways are different from yours. As high as the heaven are above the earth, so high are my ways and thought above yours.” (Isa 55:8-9)

God may be compassionate and loving, which he truly is, but he would not change what’s wrong in his way just to make it easy for human beings.

His ideals and ways are too high for us to follow, but we can do it by his grace. And you know, grace is always there for believers. You don’t have to change God’s way.

I’ve ministring to family and marital problems and divorces. You cannot imagine how women suffer when their husband marry another wives.

The desire and excesses of man can only be solved by obeying God’s ways.

There is no significant advantage by granting a man to have up to 4 wives. I say this because I have seen them with my own eyes. Both man and the women just gett more problem out of polygamy.

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

No, you can’t apply the same logic here. I was discussing marriage; this has to do with laws and laws change. For example in the time of Prophet Adam pbuh his children where allowed to marry each other (i.e. a man was allowed to marry his sister) or else the human race could not continue. In our time it’s forbidden for a man to marry his sister. Also the Jews where forbidden to eat some foods, when Jesus pbuh was sent to them he made lawful some of the things that where forbidden. “And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord So fear Allâh and obey me” (Qur’an 3:50). The trinity on the other hand has to do with the core of the religion, the God we worship, all religions worshiped God alone, no son, no Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel) as God, then suddenly in Christianity, all this changed, turned out God had a son, and Angel Gabriel also turned out to be God. Islam the religion that came after Christianity preached the monotheistic religion again. So the only religion that has trinity in it is Christianity

Christianity did not make up the Trinity! We do not worship three Gods! God reveals things in his own good time. Where in the OT does the phrase “without associating partners with him” exist?? That phrase is only in the Quran and it’s there because it was not advantageous to Mohammed for people to believe that Jesus was God, because that would prove that Mohammed was not telling the truth! If Jesus is really God, then there would not a need for any other prophet to come. Jesus himself said he was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. And where did you get the idea that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? Gabriel is an archangel.

Again you’re making another mistake based on the assumption that the Qur’an was made by Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself. And that the decisions he made regarding marriage was of his own. Muhammad pbuh was married to only one woman, Khadeejah (may God bless her) for over 25 years. After the Islam, things changed. The teachings of Islam came from Allah (swt) and as I said before, Allah (swt) made some exceptions to the Prophet pbuh for reasons we know and reasons we don’t know. At the end of the day, he’s a prophet, not just any Muslim. Not all the Christians ascended to heaven with Jesus pbuh and not all the Jews were able to split the sea apart. On the other hand we (Muslims) are commanded to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad pbuh in everything, Except for the things that Allah (swt) mentioned in the Qur’an (that He made exceptions for the Prophet and not for the rest of the believers to follow). I gave you an example before, that the Prophet pbuh was given a permission from Allah (swt) to fight in the sanctuary of Makkah for only a portion of a day. No other Muslim is allowed to fight there. As for the verse that talks about the exception given to the Prophet pbuh regarding marriage here it is “O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those whom your right hand possesses - whom Allâh has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammah (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khâl (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khâlah (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her; a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those whom their right hands possess, - in order that there should be no difficulty on you And Allâh is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 33:50)

Edris, God created one man and one woman. If what you say about polygamy is true, why didn’t God create several wives for Adam??

 

[George_Waters]

Edris,

The topic of a discussion is irrelevant when it is claimed that an entire religion is categorically false because it is the only religion that believes in a particular concept. This has been done repeatedly by Muslims on this forum when discussing the Trinity. If this is the logic Muslims wish to apply to Christianity then I ask they use the same logic when discussing Islam. You can not use different standards and expect any sort of real discussion.

I am still waiting for evidence that the Trinity changed the fact that there is only one God. It has been repeated ad nausem that it “changed”; yet no evidence of a “change” has ever been presented. Human understanding advanced, but as has been repeatedly pointed out additional explanation of a concept does NOT change the basics of the concept.

Allow me to demonstrate how additional understanding does not change the facts; if a small child were to ask you why the sky is blue how would you answer? “It has to do with light being made up of all the colors of the rainbow, but blue being the color which travels best and farthest in the sky.”, or would you say; “The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air. However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.”? The second explanation is a far more advanced understanding, but does not change the fact that the sky looks blue.

When dealing with a people who have historically been polytheistic the essential message is that there is only one God. Once monotheism has been established their capacity to understand the true Trinitarian nature of God can be explained without them falling back into erroneous belief of multiple gods.

Why is this concept so hard? I am afraid I once again must admit that it is my opinion that it is not a failing with the concept, but a refusal to even try and understand.

On another thread the moderator asked everyone to accept the fact that Muslims do not wish Islam to be called Mohamadism, regardless of some peoples interpretation of Islam. Why can’t you accept the fact that Christians believe in only one God?

George

 

[Edris]

Reuben J:

Yes. Very human.

Frankly speaking, Islam is quite attractive as quite a lot of my human’s life dilemma would be solved.

I’m still a Christian though, because I still hang to God’s word and the revelation of the ancient prophet, Isaiah : “My thoughts are not like yours, and my ways are different from yours. As high as the heaven are above the earth, so high are my ways and thought above yours.” (Isa 55:8-9)

God may be compassionate and loving, which he truly is, but he would not change what’s wrong in his way just to make it easy for human beings.

His ideals and ways are too high for us to follow, but we can do it by his grace. And you know, grace is always there for believers. You don’t have to change God’s way.

I’ve ministring to family and marital problems and divorces. You cannot imagine how women suffer when their husband marry another wives.

The desire and excesses of man can only be solved by obeying God’s ways.

There is no significant advantage by granting a man to have up to 4 wives. I say this because I have seen them with my own eyes. Both man and the women just gett more problem out of polygamy.

Actually the points that I gave are backed up by science, i’d be more than happy to provide you with scientific explanation to the benefits of every point i mentioned.

As for what you stated, that reflects your own experience and thoughts. I’m glad you shared them with us, but the truth is that they are far from reality.

so yes, the law of polygyny is very human. Unless you consider prostitution, beastiality, and unmarried birth a better solution!.

“Births to unmarried women hit record”
The data show that 35.7% of all births were to unmarried women…By age group, almost 55% of the births for mothers ages 20-24 were to unmarried women. For those between 25-29, almost 28% of the births were to single women…Between 2002 and 2004, births among unmarried women ages 25-29 jumped more than 14%. It rose about 7% among the 20-24 age group over the same period." usatoday.com/news/health/2005-10-28-unwed-moms_x.htm

Do you know what happens to most of the children that are born to unmarried couples, they end in orphanages, streets or worse as sex slaves!.

You keep living in a fantasy and denial world.

 

[MugenOne]

Yes,

“so yes, the law of polygyny is very human. Unless you consider prostitution, beastiality, and unmarried birth a better solution!”

Have you ever been to Bahrain? Bahrain is what I would call a hedonist country. All kind of pleasures or vices are there. If having 4 or more wifes solves those problems, why are the Arabs flocking to Bahrain to engage in sinful activities like prostitution, drinking, or whatever. There is nothing missing in Bahrain except gambling. And it’s only a stone throw away from Mecca.
Because of the Fall of Man, we’re sinner. You can’t deny that.

 

[Edris]

Booklover:

…Where in the OT does the phrase “without associating partners with him” exist?? That phrase is only in the Quran and it’s there because it was not advantageous to Mohammed for people to believe that Jesus was God, because that would prove that Mohammed was not telling the truth! If Jesus is really God, then there would not a need for any other prophet to come. Jesus himself said he was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. And where did you get the idea that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? Gabriel is an archangel.

1- Associating partners,

Second commendmant: “You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

If God is telling you, you should not make sculpted images or any likeness of what is in the heavens above. How on earth could he incarnate and live between us!!!

YOU WON’T SEE GOD UNTIL YOU DIE.

“And when Mûsa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You” Allâh said: “You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me” So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Mûsa (Moses) fell down unconscious Then when he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers”” (Qur’an 7:143)

“And (remember) when you (the children of Israel) said: “O Mûsa (Moses)! We shall never believe in you till we see Allâh plainly” But you were seized with a thunderbolt (lightning) while you were looking. Then We raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful” (Qur’an 2:55-56)

2- “not advantageous to Mohammed for people to believe that Jesus was God”

My brother, if Muhammad pbuh told the muslims that he was the son of God, they’d worship him. But he kept saying this till before his death “Don’t do to me what the Christians did to Jesus”. Also, based on the acount of the Qur’an alone, we (muslims) believe that Jesus pbuh, is one of the mightiest messengers, Allah’s word which He conveyed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. We also believe that Jesus pbuh is the Messiah that Allah (swt) will send. And that in the afterlife Jesus pbuh will be one of those near God. If Muhammad pbuh wanted to fabricate lies he could easily say, i’m the Messiah not Jesus.

Read what Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an about Muhammad (pbuh) :

“And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh swt), We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta), And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him” (Qur’an 69:44-47)

3- “And where did you get the idea that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? Gabriel is an archangel”

“The angels and the Spirit [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,” (Qur’an 70:4)

“The Day that Ar-Rûh (The Spirit - Jibrael (Gabriel)] and the angels will stand forth in rows, none shall speak except him whom the Most Beneficent (Allâh) allows, and he will speak what is right” (Qur’an 78:38)

“Verily! We have sent it (this Qur’ân) down in the night of Al-Qadr (the night of Decree or the night of Power). And what will make you know what the night of Al-Qadr (Decree) is? The night of Al-Qadr (Decree) is better than a thousand months Therein descend the angels and the Rûh (The spirit) [Jibrael (Gabriel)] by Allâh’s Permission with all Decrees” (Qur’an 97:1-4)

“She (Maryam) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (Spirit) [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects” (Qur’an 19:17)

Allah (swt) almost always mentions Jibrael (Gabriel) separately from the other angels due to his high rank between the angels. Also Jibrael is considered one of the closest angels to God. All the scriptures that where revealed to humanity by inspiration, where inspired through Jibrael pbuh, except for Moses pbuh for God spoke to him directly.

“And indeed, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus ([Jibrael (Gabriel)” (Qur’an 2:87)

If what you say about polygamy is true, why didn’t God create several wives for Adam??

Read what i said earlier in post #28. The laws change. The laws that God gave to the People at the time of Adam pbuh are different than our time. But the Question that you should be asking is that: If the trinity is true, then why God didn’t mention it before, or why didn’t He sent his son immediately after Adam pbuh committed the sin?

 

[Edris]

MugenOne:

Yes,

“so yes, the law of polygyny is very human. Unless you consider prostitution, beastiality, and unmarried birth a better solution!”

Have you ever been to Bahrain? Bahrain is what I would call a hedonist country. All kind of pleasures or vices are there. If having 4 or more wifes solves those problems, why are the Arabs flocking to Bahrain to engage in sinful activities like prostitution, drinking, or whatever. There is nothing missing in Bahrain except gambling. And it’s only a stone throw away from Mecca.
Because of the Fall of Man, we’re sinner. You can’t deny that.

mmm…or maybe that’s happening because many muslims are not following the teachings of Islam. And the muslim countries are not free from sin. Even at the time of Prophet Muhammad when the teachings of Islam where followed by the book, some muslims still committed sins. That’s the nature of Human beings. Although Allah (swt) gave the solutions to our problems in this life, He keeps telling us in the Qur’an to ask for forgiveness and repent when we commit sin. And this is why my friend there is something called Hell. BUT, i gave u statistics before in another thread, if you want i can look it up for you, It shows that rates of prostitution, adulterly, alcohol consumption, rape, and crime rate are way lower in muslim countries than the rest of the world.

 

[George_Waters]

Isn’t it funny how the Western media is “biased” until it can help support your argument?

Anyway, before you continue using statistics from USA Today in an attempt to prove the truth of Islam and the evils of Christianity, why don’t you read this article on violent deaths among women in Bangladesh, which is, I hasten to add, over 80% Muslim?

“The death rate due to violence, defined in terms of suicides and homicides, was higher among women than men.”

“Oppression, physical and mental abuse by husbands and relatives often preceded suicides and homicides. The disadvantaged position of women in Bangladesh society is the key underlying social cause of the violence that occurred. In order for violence against women to decrease, improvement in the social position of women is essential.”

nidi.knaw.nl/en/output/2004/ssm-59-02-vanginneken.pdf/ssm-59-02-vanginneken.pdf

Let’s face it people, every nation on earth has social issues. There is no perfect nation and using statistics in an attempt to show that a particular nation with a majority of practitioners of a particular religion is better than other nations and religions is only going to illicit counter-data… just like I did.

George

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

I don’t see why you are confused, we believe in the Gospel of Jesus, we believe in the Torah of Moses and the Psalms of David. But the books you have now are far from the originals.

Only because Mohammed said so!

The Qur’an keeps talking about the Gospel that was revealed on Jesus pbuh, what you have now is the Gospel of John, the Gospel of Mathew, the Gospel of Luke, and the Gospel of Mark. But nowhere you see is the Gospel of Jesus.

Yes, what about this gospel of Jesus you keep talking about? What is it? Jesus never wrote a gospel.

As for no one can change the word of Allah (swt), this verse refers to the Qur’an. Also Allah (swt) protected the scriptures during the lives of the messengers that were reavled upon. The Qur’an is the only book that Allah (swt) promised to protect till the judgement day.

How convenient that God would only protect scriptures DURING THE LIVES OF THE MESSENGERS WHO REVEALED THEM, but promised to protect the Quran for all time! But then again, that’s only because the Quran says so. IMHO that is no proof!

 

[George_Waters]

Don’t hold your breath Booklover. I have been waiting for evidence of the “original scripture”, you know the one Islam follows, not our “corrupted” version, since post #26!

George