The Quran says...so why is it not followed?

[Booklover]

Edris:

1- Associating partners,

Second commendmant: “You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

That does not mean that God cannot be a Trinity! God in his wisdom reveals things to us in his own good time, not when it’s convenient to us. Remember what the Lord says, “My ways are not your ways, neither are my thoughts your thoughts”.

“She (Maryam) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (Spirit) [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects” (Qur’an 19:17)

What you conveniently forgot to mention here is that according to the Quran, the Angel Gabriel in the form of a man, had sex with Mary and that is how she conceived Jesus and that she went out into the desert and had her baby all by herself! Is that what you call “virgin birth”??? And why no mention of Joseph, Mary’s husband and Jesus’ foster father? Sounds to me like “Allah” does not know what he’s talking about!

The Birth of Jesus Christ; Matthew 1 (18-25)

This was how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. His mother Mary was engaged to Joseph, but before they were married, she found out that she was going to have a baby by the Holy Spirit. Joseph was a man who always did what was right, but he did not want to disgrace Mary publicly; so he made plans to break the engagement privately. While he was thinking about this, and angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary to be your wife. For it is by the Holy Spirit that she has conceived. She will have a son, and you will name him Jesus–because he will save his people from their sins.”

Now all this happened in order to make come true what the Lord had said through the prophet, " A virgin will become pregnant and have a son, and he will be called Immanuel" (which means," God is with us").

So when Joseph woke up, he married Mary, as the angel of the Lord had told him to. But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Vickie

 

[Reuben_J]

Edris:

Actually the points that I gave are backed up by science, i’d be more than happy to provide you with scientific explanation to the benefits of every point i mentioned.

To save time, I take your word that there are scientific backing. I think I have seen this before, but maybe just leave it for now.

As for what you stated, that reflects your own experience and thoughts. I’m glad you shared them with us, but the truth is that they are far from reality.

so yes, the law of polygyny is very human. Unless you consider prostitution, beastiality, and unmarried birth a better solution!.

Just a gentle reminder. Human law is not God’s law. I gave you verses from Isaiah which you might not take seriously as they from the Bible. But nowhere did I indicated or even imply that a better solution is protitution, beastiality and unmarried birth. (Which is very prevalent among Muslims today and Christians too. Honestly, I got experience in this area and have seen many).

I said the solution is: obeying the ways of God.

“Births to unmarried women hit record”
The data show that 35.7% of all births were to unmarried women…By age group, almost 55% of the births for mothers ages 20-24 were to unmarried women. For those between 25-29, almost 28% of the births were to single women…Between 2002 and 2004, births among unmarried women ages 25-29 jumped more than 14%. It rose about 7% among the 20-24 age group over the same period." usatoday.com/news/health/2005-10-28-unwed-moms_x.htm

Do you know what happens to most of the children that are born to unmarried couples, they end in orphanages, streets or worse as sex slaves!.

You keep living in a fantasy and denial world.

The world might be what it is but remember we are just alien residents here. Our eternal home is in heaven if we are faithful to His teachings and ways. What is 50 - 80 years or so spent on earth compared to the eternity in heaven?

The true laws of God are not difficult to follow if we know who God truly is. I mentioned something about grace. Does it has different meaning in Islam?

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

Isn’t it funny how the Western media is “biased” until it can help support your argument?

Anyway, before you continue using statistics from USA Today in an attempt to prove the truth of Islam and the evils of Christianity, why don’t you read this article on violent deaths among women in Bangladesh, which is, I hasten to add, over 80% Muslim?

“The death rate due to violence, defined in terms of suicides and homicides, was higher among women than men.”

“Oppression, physical and mental abuse by husbands and relatives often preceded suicides and homicides. The disadvantaged position of women in Bangladesh society is the key underlying social cause of the violence that occurred. In order for violence against women to decrease, improvement in the social position of women is essential.”

nidi.knaw.nl/en/output/2004/ssm-59-02-vanginneken.pdf/ssm-59-02-vanginneken.pdf

Let’s face it people, every nation on earth has social issues. There is no perfect nation and using statistics in an attempt to show that a particular nation with a majority of practitioners of a particular religion is better than other nations and religions is only going to illicit counter-data… just like I did.

George

I wasn’t going to comment on this, because you people are making more enormous mistakes than this one, but I’m gonna tell you this just for your own sake, and so that next time when you quote from a paper you don’t make a similar error.

Both your quotations are from the abstract, it’s what the authors of the paper want to study and examine, the abstract started with “The objectives of this paper are to investigate….” What you quoted is still hasn’t been investigated yet, so I read through the paper, then I reached the conclusion and this is what I Quoted from the CONCLUSION not from the ABSTRACT.

“We found an average annual death rate due to suicide among women 15–44 years old of 1.3 per 10,000 persons. Years of observation in 1982–1998 and a homicide rate 0.2 per 10,000 indicating that we are dealing with rare events. The question is how these figures compare with other societies. For this purpose, a comparison was made with three European countries **characterized by less gender discrimination ** than in Bangladesh. We found that in Matlab the female suicide rate was higher than in the European countries while the opposite was found for male suicides. Also, from other sources it is known that higher suicide rates among females compared to males are extremely rare.”

“Multivariate analysis showed that suicide and homicide occurred more often among unmarried, divorced and widowed women than among married women.”

So, as I understand the conclusion of the paper states that these events are rare. Just to point here, Bangladesh is one of the Poorest countries in the World. When compared to the best three European countries (not all European countries) characterized by less gender discrimination, they found that female suicide rate was higher in Bangladesh BUT the male suicide rate in those 3 European countries was higher than Bangladesh. Also, their sources indicate that higher suicide rates among females compared to males in Bangladesh are EXTREMELY RARE. Which proves YOUR QUOTATIONS turn out to be false.

And last Quote proves my point, that women should not be left unmarried. Because the study also concluded that suicide and homicide occurred more often among unmarried, divorced and widowed women than among married women.

Peace

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

Don’t hold your breath Booklover. I have been waiting for evidence of the “original scripture”, you know the one Islam follows, not our “corrupted” version, since post #26!

George

The only reason I didn’t answer this yet, because I was focusing on the other subject, and once I start discussing the scriptures I’ll not be able to go back to the marriage issue. But anyways, no problem.

• If Muslims only believe in the “original scriptures” can any of the originals be produced to show evidence of later tampering?

The closest to the Gospel of Jesus pbuh would be the Gospel of Bernaba, which the Christians simply don’t accept. So even If I bring the Original you’ll say I don’t believe that it’s a Gospel. As you know the answer before hand, we don’t have the original scriptures, they didn’t make it to our time, or else we wouldn’t be having this discussion. If I give you verses from the Qur’an that talk about the Gospel of Jesus you will not accept. So there you go from your own scriptures here’s a proof that Jesus had a Gospel, “And Jesus went about all the cities and the villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness.” (Matthew 9:35)”, also “On one of the days while he was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted him” (Luke 20:1) My question here, what is the Gospel that Jesus pbuh was preaching to the people, Gospel of Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John?!! To prove that the Bible is tampered we don’t need the original for comparison, all we need is common sense. And you can apply the same to the Qur’an to know which one is the true word of God that has not been changed or altered.

As Sheikh Ahmad Deedat explained in the link that I gave you previously:

“We Muslims have no hesitation in acknowledging that in the Bible, there are three different kinds of witnessing recognizable without any need of specialized training. These are:

1. You will be able to recognize in the Bible what may be described as “The Word of God.”
2. You will also be able to discern what can be described as the “Words of a Prophet of God.”
3. And you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnesses or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the “Words of a Historian”

You do not have to hunt for examples of these different types of evidences in the Bible. The following quotations will make the position crystal clear:

The FIRST Type:
(a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in … and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)

(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11)

(c) “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else.” (Isaiah 45:22)
Note the first person pronoun singular (highlighted in green) in the above references, and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seem to have the sound of being GOD’S WORD.

The SECOND Type:
(a) “Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? . . .” (Matthew 27:46)

(b) “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:” (Mark 12:29)

(c) “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” (Mark 10:18).

Even a child will be able to affirm that: Jesus “cried” Jesus “answered” and Jesus “said” are the words of the one to whom they are attributed, i.e. the WORDS OF A PROPHET OF GOD.

The THIRD Type:
“And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (JESUS) came, if haply he (JESUS) might find anything thereon: and when he (JESUS) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . .” (Mark 11:13)

The bulk of the Bible is a witnessing of this THIRD kind. These are the words of a third person. Note the underlined pronouns. They are not the Words of God or of His prophet, but the WORDS OF A HISTORIAN.

continue…

 

[Edris]

For the Muslim it is quite easy to distinguish the above types of evidence, because he also has them in his own faith. But of the followers of the different religions, he is the most fortunate in this that his various records are contained in separate Books!

ONE: The first kind — THE WORD OF GOD — is found in a Book called The Holy Qur’an.

TWO: The second kind — THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET OF GOD, (Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are recorded in the Books of Tradition called The Hadith.

THREE: Evidence of the third kind abounds in different volume of Islamic history, written by some of high integrity and learning, and others of lesser trustworthiness, but the Muslim advisedly keeps his Books in separate volumes!

The Muslim keeps the above three types of evidence jealously apart, in their proper gradations of authority. He never equates them. On the other hand, the “Holy Bible” contains a motley type of literature, which composes the embarrassing kind, the sordid, and the obscene — all under the same cover — A Christian is forced to concede equal spiritual import and authority to all, and is thus unfortunate in this regard.”

If you read the Qur’an you’ll realize that God speaks in the first person. You’ll find many verses starting with “Say (O Muhammad)….”. Allah (swt) narrates the stories of the Prophet pbut, himself.

Now, in the word of God, you’ll not find contradiction, you’ll not find extra verses or additional knowledge that is not useful. What is translated to English is the interpretation of the Qur’an. In the Arabic text the Qur’an is perfect every word and every letter fits the meaning. Also no other book is recited like the Qur’an. As for the Bible, we’re not talking about words or letters, we are talking about verses, stories and books that has no useful meaning, and has no right to be in the word of God.

When something other than the word of God is added to the scriptures, contradiction will arise. Let me give you an example:

Regarding the Resurrection of Jesus pbuh from the four Gospels:

In Mathew’s version (28:1-10) Mary Magdalene and “the other Mary” first learn of Jesus’ Resurrection from an angel at the tomb, who tells them to “go quickly and tell his disciples.” As they leave they are met by Jesus, who also instructs them to spread the Good News to others.

Likewise in Mark’s account (16:1-8) Mary Magdalene is accompanied by Mary, the mother of James and Salome to anoint Jesus’ body. But inside the empty tomb they find an angel who tells them Jesus has been raised from the dead. Again, Jesus first appears to Mary Magdalene, but when she tells the disciples, they do not believe her.

Then in Luke (24:1-12) it says the three woman are Mary Magdalene; Mary, the mother of James; and Joanna and that they first find the stone rolled away and are told by two men “in dazzling clothes” that Jesus has risen from the dead. The other disciples do not believe their “idle tale,” and Peter runs to the tomb to see for him the burial clothes.

In John’s Resurrection account (20:1-18) Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb alone, sees that the stone has been rolled away, and runs to get Peter. What follows are the parallel stories: Verses 3-10 describe how Peter and the disciple Jesus loved witness the burial clothes, but “they did not understand”; while verses 10-18 tell the story of Jesus’ appearance to Mary of Magdala.

Also, the divinity of Jesus pbuh, contradicts with many verses found in the Bible. In times he’s telling the people of Israel to worship God the Father alone. Then later you find the “son of God” popping again. Read for example this verse ““And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” (Mark 10:18). Jesus pbuh doesn’t accept to be called GOOD, how’d he accept to be called GOD?? If you are God or the Son of God, then he should accept it. I’m gonna help you here, if you say oh he doesn’t accept that because The father is Greater than him, then you are acknowledging that Jesus is different than the father, (i.e. they don’t have the same essence) and therefore the monotheistic trinity is false and the truth is that it’s tretheistic.

If you notice I gave only one example on each point because I believe that one example should be enough.

Peace

 

[Edris]

Booklover:

What you conveniently forgot to mention here is that according to the Quran, the Angel Gabriel in the form of a man, had sex with Mary and that is how she conceived Jesus and that she went out into the desert and had her baby all by herself! Is that what you call “virgin birth”??? And why no mention of Joseph, Mary’s husband and Jesus’ foster father? Sounds to me like “Allah” does not know what he’s talking about!

Vickie

This is the worst post I have ever read in this Forum. My brother read the Qur’an before start telling lies. I quoted that verse alone because I was talking about the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel). Angel Gabriel pbuh appeared numerous times to the Prophet pbuh in the form of a man. Simply because in his original form that Allah created on, the earth will not be able to hold him. The prophet pbuh saw him only twice in his original form, he said “Gabriel has six hundred wings, if he spreads one of his wings it will block the horizon”. The first time the prophet pbuh saw angel Gabriel in his original form, he fell unconscious due to his enormous size and greatness. Imagine what would happen to Marry (may God bless her) if the Angel appeared to her in his original form.

“And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. She said: “Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh”. (The angel) said: “I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son” She said: “How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?” He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: ‘That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh)’” So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (ie Bethlehem valley about - miles from Jerusalem) And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm She said: “Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!” Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; “And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you” "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day” (Qur’an 19:16-26)

So my brother the angel came to announce to her the birth of Jesus pbuh; not to have sex with her; and if you read through the Qur’an you’ll find that many of the prophets were given the good news of having a child before hand, and the announcement almost always was from the angels, or by inspiration:

Here are some examples:

"O Zakariya (Zachariah)! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, His name will be Yahya (John) We have given that name to none before (him)"” (Qur’an 19:7)

“Has the story reached you, of the honored guests [three angels; Jibrael (Gabriel) along with another two] of Ibrâhim (Abraham)? When they came in to him, and said, “Salâm, (peace be upon you)!” He answered; “Salâm, (peace be upon you ),” and said: “You are a people unknown to me,” Then he turned to his household, so brought out a roasted calf [as the property of Ibrahîm (Abraham) was mainly cows] And placed it before them, (saying): “Will you not eat?” Then he conceived a fear of them (when they ate not) They said: “Fear not” And they gave him glad tidings of an intelligent son, having knowledge (about Allâh and His religion of True Monotheism) Then his wife came forward with a loud voice, she smote her face, and said: “A barren old woman!” They said: “Even so says your Lord Verily, He is the All-Wise, the All-Knower”” (Qur’an 51:24-30)

Peace

 

[George_Waters]

Edris,

This was my point: “Let’s face it people, every nation on earth has social issues. There is no perfect nation and using statistics in an attempt to show that a particular nation with a majority of practitioners of a particular religion is better than other nations and religions is only going to illicit counter-data.”

Thank you for being concerned for my “enormous mistakes” and me, but I was simply trying to show you how you can not use statistics without someone presenting contrary data. I thought the above quoted statement made that perfectly clear. I never had any intention of debating the abstract as I would have then been guilty of using statistic to… yeah, yeah, yeah, you get the idea.

You and I both know that “evidence” can be produced to support any and ever opinion and agenda. You cite how the Quran is perfect in every possible way and how the Bible is the corrupted work of men who simply want to deny Mohammed his proper place and show your evidence and you know I can produce my own evidence and both of us will walk away shaking our heads and totally unconvinced of the others evidence. I think we can agree on that, yes?

To answer your question about which gospel Jesus was using (which quite honestly is a very silly question no matter if you believe Jesus was a prophet or God incarnate) Jesus was not preaching the gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John he was preaching the gospel of God. As I am sure you know gospel does not necessarily refer to the particular writings of one person, though it can, but to the teachings of God in general. Jesus was teaching the good news of God.

I keep reading “Where is the gospel of Jesus? Why do Christians rely on Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?” Well, where is the “gospel” of Mohammed? Why do you rely on the writings of his companions? And why destroy the originals? Yes, that probably is a rhetorical question as I can not fathom a single legitimate reason why you would ever willing destroy an original writing of “truth”. The Quran contains what Mohammed claimed was a message from God and written down by others and the gospels record what they claim God said that they had witnessed. Is that so different?

I know an original copy of scriptures does not exist. But common sense tells me writings done hundreds of years later that contradict much earlier writings are not to be taken at face value without supporting evidence.

You had to throw one more jab at the Trinity in there like it would support and add credence to all your arguments. I am surprised how so many people anthromorphize God and just know He thinks like us and does everything just like us even though both faiths clearly state otherwise. Common sense also tells me this is simply a concept you will refuse to believe, but will continue to attack without ever answering the simplest of questions about it or even trying to see it from a different point of view.

George

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

This is the worst post I have ever read in this Forum. My brother read the Qur’an before start telling lies.

“She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Soul, and it appeared before her as a man in all respects.”[4]
Seeing a young man in her solitary chamber, Mary panicked. Knowing not how to protect her virginity, she begged of the man not to force her into sex. The man replied: I am the messenger of your Lord, and have come to give you a holy son.
Mary asked him innocently: How shall I bear a child, when I am a virgin, untouched by man?
The man replied: Such is the will of your Lord, implying that he was there to break her virginity, as there is no difficult thing for Him {to perform}. {The child I am going to give to you) shall be a sign to mankind, says the Lord, “and a blessing from Ourself. This is Our decree.[5]
Verse 22: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
Verse 23: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): “Ah! Would that I had died before this would! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!
Verse 24: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): “Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
Verse 25: And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon the
Being assured that the man was not a rapist; that he was carrying Allah’s soul in his body, and that the child he would help her produce would be Allah’s son, Mary agreed gladly to let him sleep with her. Her one time affair with him made her pregnant with Jesus Christ, and this she realized soon after the man departed from her chamber.

[4] See The Meaning of the Glorious Koran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall. He used the words “Our Spirit.” Modudi used the words “My Soul” in his translation of the same verse. See Tafhimul Quran, Vol. 2, p. 62.
[5] This is N. J. Dawood’s translation. See The Koran

 

[Edris]

“She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Soul, and it appeared before her as a man in all respects.”[4]
Seeing a young man in her solitary chamber, Mary panicked. Knowing not how to protect her virginity, she begged of the man not to force her into sex. The man replied: I am the messenger of your Lord, and have come to give you a holy son.
Mary asked him innocently: How shall I bear a child, when I am a virgin, untouched by man?
The man ** replied: Such is the will of your Lord, implying that he was there to break her virginity**, as there is no difficult thing for Him {to perform}. {The child I am going to give to you) shall be a sign to mankind, says the Lord, “and a blessing from Ourself. This is Our decree.[5]
Verse 22: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
Verse 23: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): “Ah! Would that I had died before this would! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!
Verse 24: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): “Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
Verse 25: And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon the
**Being assured that the man was not a rapist; that he was carrying Allah’s soul in his body, and that the child he would help her produce would be Allah’s son, Mary agreed gladly to let him sleep with her. Her one time affair with him made her pregnant with Jesus Christ, and this she realized soon after the man departed from her chamber. **
[4] See The Meaning of the Glorious Koran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall. He used the words “Our Spirit.” Modudi used the words “My Soul” in his translation of the same verse. See Tafhimul Quran, Vol. 2, p. 62.
[5] This is N. J. Dawood’s translation. See The Koran

Brother George, here’s a good example of how your bible was corrupted. Mixing a christian’s wild imaginary interpretation of the Qur’an with the verses of the Qur’an. This is exactly what happened to the Bible. Compare the verses that I quoted with those quoted and interpreted by Booklover from faithfreedom.com.

What you don’t know, is that the Qur’an was transmitted to us in two ways: Orally and in written form. One of the many miracles of the Qur’an is that it’s easy to memorise. I know many Imam’s in our time from them Sheikh Mishary Rashed El Affassy, Sheikh Abu Bakr El Shatery, and Sheikh Othman Khamis, who are still alive now, have the chain of memorisation the Qur’an going back to Prophet Muhammad himself. I myself, i know more than 80% of the Qur’an by heart. I’m waiting just to finish my masters degree in biochemistry to complete the Qur’an. Also hundreds of thousands of muslims can recite the Qur’an without making a single mistake in the Accents on the letters, not words or verses.

This answers your previous questions, if all the Qur’ans in the world were burned and destroyed and corrupted. We still have the Qur’an in our heart.

"And We have indeed made the Qur’ân easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember?" (Qur’an 54:17)

 

[George_Waters]

Edris… Come on Buddy! We have seen “wild imaginary interpretation of the Qur’an” by so-called Muslims to commit atrocities! This does not prove the Bible has been corrupted. It seems to me, with my limited knowledge of such things, that Islam relies on the Bible being corrupted to support it’s legitimacy. Not a very stable foundation, but that is just my perception at this time.

Honestly, do you believe there is indisputable independent evidence to definitively prove either the Quran or the Bible is the word of God? We know there is not. But we have our faith! I have not visited faithfreedom.com or answeringislam.whatever. I try to learn from discussion and from reading history books (I am of the age that I don’t quite trust the information I find on the internet) and I do try to follow what I believe God has placed in my heart, as do you.

Yes, I do know that the Quran is taught orally and in written form. Oral teachings and traditions are unfortunately downplayed in the West and I think that is a grave mistake culturally and historically on our part.

It is very admirable that you have memorized so much of the Quran, congratulations! While I can not agree that memorization of something by numerous people is proof of its truth, I do think it says much for the faith of those who follow its teachings.

I truly believe we are not so different and need to look toward our common ground. Now, if I can just get you to admit Christians really do believe in only one God we’ll have it made!

Peace Edris!

George

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

Edris… Come on Buddy! We have seen “wild imaginary interpretation of the Qur’an” by so-called Muslims to commit atrocities! This does not prove the Bible has been corrupted. It seems to me, with my limited knowledge of such things, that Islam relies on the Bible being corrupted to support it’s legitimacy. Not a very stable foundation, but that is just my perception at this time.

Honestly, do you believe there is indisputable independent evidence to definitively prove either the Quran or the Bible is the word of God? We know there is not. But we have our faith! I have not visited faithfreedom.com or answeringislam.whatever. I try to learn from discussion and from reading history books (I am of the age that I don’t quite trust the information I find on the internet) and I do try to follow what I believe God has placed in my heart, as do you.

Yes, I do know that the Quran is taught orally and in written form. Oral teachings and traditions are unfortunately downplayed in the West and I think that is a grave mistake culturally and historically on our part.

It is very admirable that you have memorized so much of the Quran, congratulations! While I can not agree that memorization of something by numerous people is proof of its truth, I do think it says much for the faith of those who follow its teachings.

I truly believe we are not so different and need to look toward our common ground. Now, if I can just get you to admit Christians really do believe in only one God we’ll have it made!

Peace Edris!

George

Islam does not rely on the Bible being corrupt. And I think I mentioned this before, we (Muslims) don’t need the NT to believe in Jesus pbuh, or the OT to believe in Moses pbuh. Muhammad pbuh didn’t need to degrade the previous Prophets to prove the legitimacy of his Prophethood or his message. If you read through the Qur’an you’ll see how much respect it gives to all the Prophets.

As we are not so different, that’s right. We believe that the Father is God that’s almost 33% like Christianity. We also believe that Jesus is the messiah, the word, and spirit proceeding from God, we believe that he’s one of the mightiest messengers, we believe in all the miracles that he performed by the will of God. We believe in his miraculous birth. We believe that he ascended to heaven and that he will descend again before the end of time. We believe that God supported him with the Holy Spirit. Any Muslim who doesn’t believe in Jesus as a prophet and messenger from God, or says anything disrespectful about Jesus pbuh, then he has gone far from the teachings of Islam. I think this is more than 50% like Christianity. In other words we are like half brothers.

The only thing that’s different in Islam is that we DON’T believe that Jesus pbuh is the son of God; and to that matter we believe that God DOES NOT have children, parents or partners and nothing can be compared to Him. We also believe that God (Allah swt – The Father (in Christianity)] is the only One worthy of worship. As Jesus pbuh said [John 4:23] “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” and the Qur’an also says [Qur’an 39:14] “Say (O Muhammad) "Allâh Alone I worship by doing religious deeds sincerely for His sake only and not to show-off, and not to set up rivals with Him in worship”

Peace

 

[Colm_O_Higgins]

George Waters:

Edris… Come on Buddy! We have seen “wild imaginary interpretation of the Qur’an” by so-called Muslims to commit atrocities! This does not prove the Bible has been corrupted. It seems to me, with my limited knowledge of such things, that Islam relies on the Bible being corrupted to support it’s legitimacy. Not a very stable foundation, but that is just my perception at this time.

Honestly, do you believe there is indisputable independent evidence to definitively prove either the Quran or the Bible is the word of God? We know there is not. But we have our faith! I have not visited faithfreedom.com or answeringislam.whatever. I try to learn from discussion and from reading history books (I am of the age that I don’t quite trust the information I find on the internet) and I do try to follow what I believe God has placed in my heart, as do you.

Yes, I do know that the Quran is taught orally and in written form. Oral teachings and traditions are unfortunately downplayed in the West and I think that is a grave mistake culturally and historically on our part.

It is very admirable that you have memorized so much of the Quran, congratulations! While I can not agree that memorization of something by numerous people is proof of its truth, I do think it says much for the faith of those who follow its teachings.

I truly believe we are not so different and need to look toward our common ground. Now, if I can just get you to admit Christians really do believe in only one God we’ll have it made!

Peace Edris!

George

1 God, 3 identities

 

[Reuben_J]

Edris:

As we are not so different, that’s right. We believe that the Father is God that’s almost 33% like Christianity. We also believe that Jesus is the messiah, the word, and spirit proceeding from God, we believe that he’s one of the mightiest messengers, we believe in all the miracles that he performed by the will of God. We believe in his miraculous birth. We believe that he ascended to heaven and that he will descend again before the end of time. We believe that God supported him with the Holy Spirit. Any Muslim who doesn’t believe in Jesus as a prophet and messenger from God, or says anything disrespectful about Jesus pbuh, then he has gone far from the teachings of Islam. I think this is more than 50% like Christianity. In other words we are like half brothers.
Peace

Good for you, for that ecumenical effort.

A step further, like Islam following the teachings of Jesus himself would greatly increase the “percentage” you mentioned.

GBU

 

[Darrel]

We also believe that Jesus is the messiah, the word, and spirit proceeding from God.

Edris,

You do not believe Jesus is the messiah. That is unless you have your own definition of the word. Here is the definition of messiah. Please elaborate.

In Judaism, the Messiah (מָשִׁיחַ “Anointed one”, Standard Hebrew Mašíaḥ, Tiberian Hebrew Māšîªḥ) is a human descendant of King David who will rebuild the nation of Israel and bring world peace by restoring the Davidic Kingdom. Christians consider Jesus to be that messiah (in Greek Christ), as well as the son of God and a member of the Holy Trinity

-D

 

[Reuben_J]

George Waters:

Edris,
I am still waiting for evidence that the Trinity changed the fact that there is only one God. It has been repeated ad nausem that it “changed”; yet no evidence of a “change” has ever been presented. Human understanding advanced, but as has been repeatedly pointed out additional explanation of a concept does NOT change the basics of the concept.

Allow me to demonstrate how additional understanding does not change the facts; if a small child were to ask you why the sky is blue how would you answer? “It has to do with light being made up of all the colors of the rainbow, but blue being the color which travels best and farthest in the sky.”, or would you say; “The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air. However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.”? The second explanation is a far more advanced understanding, but does not change the fact that the sky looks blue.

When dealing with a people who have historically been polytheistic the essential message is that there is only one God. Once monotheism has been established their capacity to understand the true Trinitarian nature of God can be explained without them falling back into erroneous belief of multiple gods.
George

I meant to say this. That’s a good piece of thought.

 

[George_Waters]

“Half-brother” Edris,

As we do share so much let us pray for peace and greater understanding in the “family”. The real question is which one of us is the “black sheep” of the family?!

Peace

George

 

[Angel7]

I am a bit confused here…the Quran in several Sura’s states that Muslims do not believe the Bible is corrupt but a true revelation of God (Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11)…so why is it that modern day Muslims view the Bible as corrupt?

It (the Quran) also states that NO ONE can change the Word of God **(****Sura 6:34:And certainly apostles before you were rejected, but they were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah, and certainly there has come to you some information about the messengers.)

---

The Quran also states that a true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God **(**Sura 4:136:*O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
****Sura 29:46:***And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit )

---

Because there are alot of Hypocracies in Islam, they even Deny Jesus’ Crucifixion.
I don’t want to offend anyone, but doesn’t the Qu’ran really contradict itself numerous times.(Or maybe i just fell into non-denominational propaganda while visiting a sight) Muslims view god as a distant monarch, when in reallity he wants to be close to us like a father.
Plus Jesus’ teaching and Mohammed’s are way off.
Jesus told us to love our enemies, Mohammed invaded towns that refused to accept his message. Islam is very militant for a religion of peace.

 

[Angel7]

The only thing that’s different in Islam is that we DON’T believe that Jesus pbuh is the son of God; and to that matter we believe that God DOES NOT have children, parents or partners and nothing can be compared to Him. We also believe that God (Allah swt – The Father (in Christianity)] is the only One worthy of worship. As Jesus pbuh said [John 4:23] “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” and the Qur’an also says [Qur’an 39:14] “Say (O Muhammad) "Allâh Alone I worship by doing religious deeds sincerely for His sake only and not to show-off, and not to set up rivals with Him in worship”

Peace

Jesus was begotten, not MADE like you and I. He is one with the father. Begotten, not MADE.
In Genesis, when G-d creates man, he says let “US” make man in “OUR” image. (plurals)
Jesus was there before any of us. It was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
(Fellow Catholics correct me if im Wrong K?)

 

[ZAKI]

Jesus was begotten, not MADE like you and I. He is one with the father. Begotten, not MADE.
In Genesis, when G-d creates man, he says let “US” make man in “OUR” image. (plurals)
Jesus was there before any of us. It was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
(Fellow Catholics correct me if im Wrong K?)

us is used like we. A royal thing used in the Quran and bible. such as when Queen Elizabeth said, “we are not impressed.” while was talking about herself not being impressed-it doesn’t mean any others were not impressed.
Also, can’t God make us without any parents? didn’t he do this to Adam as well? Is Adam also another son of God because God created him without parents?

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

Because there are alot of Hypocracies in Islam, they even Deny Jesus’ Crucifixion.
I don’t want to offend anyone, but doesn’t the Qu’ran really contradict itself numerous times.**(Or maybe i just fell into non-denominational propaganda while visiting a sight) **Muslims view god as a distant monarch, when in reallity he wants to be close to us like a father.
Plus Jesus’ teaching and Mohammed’s are way off.
Jesus told us to love our enemies, Mohammed invaded towns that refused to accept his message. Islam is very militant for a religion of peace.

Yes you did. If you want the truth-start visiting more muslim sites and asking them questions.

wasalam