The Quran speaks true in some verses.

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Nuts to the squirrel thing then. :rolleyes: (cant keep up with that)

Jesus said He is the Truth, the Truth does not exist without Him

Its not like Jesus is here and Truth is over there

they are one and the same

so is there Truth in the Quran? if so specifically what is it?

🙂
I agree the squirrel/nuts thing is distracting.

Specifically the words of Satan that say he will lead astray as many as possible. The paradox of Satan telling the truth in a lie- the Quran. Since it obviously does not agree with the Truth of Christ as Catholic/Christians know it- it is a lie.
 
A stopped clock is right twice every 24 hours but not very useful.
 
shesh all these cryptic tellings :rolleyes: ok fine

but Truth is not stopped, Im suggesting its leaking in there, and available to be seen. If Truth was put there to decieve, theres a probability of backfiring. Because Truth sorta knows what Hes doing.

🙂
 
It seems eveyone wants to use an analogy be it a clock or squirrel nuts.

How about this to describe the kind of truth and lie I think the Quran is, and Satans role in it:

My great grand father started a succesfull buisiness and was respected by all. Years go by without any problems and I am running my grandfathers business; then one day a stranger shows up at my door who says he is a long lost relative.

The stranger has no proof he is a relative, but this stranger has convinced my neighbors and others that my grandfather is really misunderstood by me, and this stranger should run the business instead of me. The stranger was told he was a relative of mine by someone who had no authority to say such a thing.

If people believe the ‘truth’ of the stranger, it makes my Truth a lie, but that does not make the strangers truth True.

Why am I defending my grandfathers good name to a lying stranger? Why do so many believe the stranger over me? His proof book of words he says my grandfather said is no where in my family record and history, but because the stranger tells eveyone I have re-written my family history to make his claim invalid I am the one who must be lying and not the stranger.

Islam has no legitimate authority to say it is true over the OT & NT. It is a baseless claim. Mohamed has no proof other than his word to give it such authority. Not one oteh rperson ever heard or saw his revelations. NONE.

Why in the world do so many people believe the faithfully written word of a self admitted illiterate murderer and thief over those who faithfully recorded the life of a sinless man who performed miracles and raised Himself after being killed?

On that alone common sense would …should prevail.
 
Kitty,

I am busy right now, but can further address the truth in Islam later. Here are a few truths:
  1. It is monotheistic
  2. Islam is against idolatry.
  3. Islam promotes chastity for females.
  4. Aversion to abortion and birth control.
  5. It requires semi-frequent prayer.
  6. It promotes cleanliness.
  7. It requires giving to charity (but only to other Muslims).
  8. It preaches using rational thinking thinking when studying religion.
The lack of Truth which I talk about is the difficulty in seeing God’s signature anywhere in Islam. If the Qu’ran supports something truthful, instead of saying to myself “That must be God” I wonder what Satan is trying to trick people into doing by supporting that idea.

Like how the idolatry thing has been used as justification to destroy any statues, paintings, photos, or films of people and animals.
 
Kitty,
  1. It is monotheistic
  2. Islam is against idolatry.
  3. Islam promotes chastity for females.
  4. Aversion to abortion and birth control.
  5. It requires semi-frequent prayer.
  6. It promotes cleanliness.
  7. It requires giving to charity (but only to other Muslims).
  8. It preaches using rational thinking thinking when studying religion.
thanks, even though your busy 🙂

Im just rolling my Truth statement through these, and none seem to be Truth. Perhaps common sense, Im not sure. They also seem to be issues of control of individuals. Im gonna look up what Jesus said that went I tell you the Truth (anyone else can too) Hope this is a reasonable approach? 🙂
 
It seems eveyone wants to use an analogy be it a clock or squirrel nuts.

On that alone common sense would …should prevail.
sounds good, nice way to explain it, I suppose you could add something about road kill. 😃

Truth is covered with what you are saying with false truth, sounds similar. I wonder if** Truth **can leak itself out and melt the false??

just on a roll, if its not working its ok, Im just thinking if there is any Word of God in there, what the possibilities are.
 
The Truth has a way of making itself known, but I have not read anything in the Qu’ran that makes me think “this verse here, must be from God.”

Bizarrely, this same book inspired my husband to see God in all good things, and the exhaustive legalistic requirements help him be more constantly aware of God’s presence and have given him the ability to exercise pretty severe self-control.

I think, if there is anyway God reveals Himself to Muslims, it is on a personal level. Some do the little things that the Qu’ran requires of them, not just going through the motions, but with the intention of making themselves more pleasing to God.

It almost forces them to make their life a constant prayer. (What do I wear, I have to cover my head, is mac and cheese made with pork products, etc.) And when you think of God in everything you do, there is a relationship with your creator that develops, even if you have a misconception of what He asks of you.

Something my husband was talking about made think of another thing in the Qu’ran that seems like a glimpse of Satan as the author. This part kind of confuses him and freaks him out. I am tired now though, and I will pull the verse and expand on it tomorrow.
 
Something my husband was talking about made think of another thing in the Qu’ran that seems like a glimpse of Satan as the author. This part kind of confuses him and freaks him out. I am tired now though, and I will pull the verse and expand on it tomorrow.
I’m curious to hear what that is.

As far as any truth in the Koran, I do not think there is any that was not already known, and any truth it may share is often twisted to no longer be quite true.
  1. It is monotheistic- It rejects Jesus
  2. Islam is against idolatry.- Claims Catholics/Christians are.
  3. Islam promotes chastity for females.- It puts them under a sheet with one eye to see their way- and was given in response to Mohameds wedding guests gawking at his other wives. I think it had very little to do with chastity, but more of control of women.
  4. Aversion to abortion and birth control.- They are not that averse to it.
  5. It requires semi-frequent prayer.- Forced community prayer begining at 4 AM does not seem right for the average human- notwithstanding God deserves all praise, but Jesus taught different.
  6. It promotes cleanliness.- Ritual cleaning I think is different.
  7. It requires giving to charity (but only to other Muslims). Your qualifier says enough.
  8. It preaches using rational thinking thinking when studying religion.- Allowing rational debate about other religions is another thing.
 
A squirrel gathering nuts somewhere along the road to Damascus can also be momentarily blinded by a bright flash of light and subsequently mistake a pebble for a nut.
Come on hamba, you can do better than that!
 
My husband has expressed concern about the Qu’ranic story of Satan’s fall on more than one occasion. He can’t reach any conclusions about it, but I have. I’ll try to explain this using the verses. This story is recorded 7 times in the Qu’ran, briefly or in full.
Sura 7:11 And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not one of those who submitted.
7:12 He (God) said: What hindered thee that thou didst not submit when I commanded thee? He (Iblis) said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
7:13 He (God) said: Then get forth from this (state), for it is not for thee to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely thou art of the abject ones.
7:14 He (Iblis) said: Respite me till the day when they are raised.
7:15 He (God) said: Thou art surely of the respited ones.
7: 16 He (Iblis) said: As Thou hast adjudged me to be erring, I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path,
I think this that this story reveals something about Satan’s fall (perhaps from Satan himself), about his perspective, and I think Satan’s perception of God in this section is frequently reflected in Islam.

In 7: 11 God is telling the angels to do something which in Islam would be condemned as idolatry, making submission to (or prostrating themselves to) a creation, rather than the Creator. Adam in this verse is meant generally, meaning the angels are being asked to bow down to every man.

So there are 3 possibilities here:
  1. God changed the rules in the middle of the game, so Satan by disobeying this command, instead of the one against idolatry, failed the test and was punished.
  2. Satan was right and God punished him unjustly.
  3. It wasn’t idolatry to bow to man because God was telling Satan to make submission to His Son, Jesus Christ. For this to work you have to accept the fact of the Incarnation.
This would mean Satan would be wrong because of his rejection of the Incarnation. God would remain consistant in His commandments, because by submitting to Christ, the angels would be submitting to God, and not committing idolatry.

In 7:12 Satan says he is better than man because he is a spirit and man is material. Really bad news for Satan if he is referring to Jesus.

This story of Satan’s fall is compatible with the Catholic Faith. The Church says the angels faced a test of their faith, and that we can’t say what that was for certain. But the Church speculates that the fallen angels were scandalized by the Incarnation.

7:16 is key, also. Satan blames God for his sin. He is saying “You caused me to err,” or “You are punishing me for my mistake” or “Thou hast made life evil to me” or “Thou hast caused me to remain disappointed.” I got all those interpretations from the foot notes.

I think here the Qu’ran is speaking about that test of the angels. And Satan’s attitude here is reflected throughout the Qu’ran and throughout Islam.

He doesn’t believe in ever making submission to anyone or anything except God the Father, even if God says so, and he believes that God determines fate, makes his creations what they are, and that God is the source of all evil as well as good.

Continued . . .
 
In other verses the Qu’ran states Satan was not an angel, that he was created as a jinn (devil), and as such was designed with a rebellious spirit and must do evil by design.

The Quran states in Sura 113 that God created evil.

The Qu’ran continually reinforces the idea that God leads who He will and deceives who He will. It talks about God putting a seal on the hearts of disbelievers, and leading them further into error.

It talks about how much God loves and has mercy for His people and how harshly He punishes those whom are sinners or unbelievers. Not that people punish themselves by choosing to sin and choosing to separate themselves from God, it’s always God’s wrath

And on top of that, even though Satan is condemned to Hell for refusing to honor men, the attitude in the Qu’ran and Islam remains, don’t honor any man, don’t bow to any man, don’t praise any man. Especially not Jesus Christ or his mother, or your priests or Pope or Saints.

Anyhow, my husband doesn’t understand how Satan is Islamically wrong by not bowing to man, and it kind of freaks him out. Because if it looks to him like Satan is Islamically correct in this, no matter how much he tries to understand God’s condemnation here, then is there hope for his (my husband’s) soul?

I’d like to tell my husband my perspective, but I think it might be more offensive to him than enlightening. I hope it makes sense here and it doesn’t seem like I am stretching things.🙂 When you start thinking that parts of the Qu’ran may have been revealled by an evil spirit, reading it gets a lot scarier.

First I thought Islam was respectable enough, like Protestantism, or Judaism. Then I thought it was a bunch of nonsense like Wicca or Scientology. Now it’s kind of frightening.
 
thats that is totally fasinating. kinda tossed my speculation about Truth, if Jesus is tossed then that makes it hard for Truth.

But then again doesnt it mention Jesus (peace be on him) like that? I have a feeling by what you said its not actually to honor Him but keep Him in a place, with false niceness, the peace part ??

It seems to be talking of God but twisting things that happened and making Him look bad as it were, and blaming God for evil as in He caused it, when it was satan, typical. :rolleyes:

Cause I was going to say well they just see God as the wrathful God and dont see any other sides. And that may be true but its also a warped wrathful.

But its still God, so is that a good thing??

Am I getting this right or am I off?? 🙂
 
Peace be upon him is said or written after every “prophet’s” name in Islam, as a sign of respect. In Islam, Jesus is just a prophet who is a sinless Muslim, doesn’t die on the cross for anybody, and says he never told anyone to worship him.

The thing that might be accurate about the Islamic view of God is that it does say He loves and is merciful and kind to His followers.

I think this faith is influenced by Satan’s perception of God because God is depicted as hating sinners with wrathful fury, and for a God who cast Satan into Hell for pride, Allah sure has a lot of wonderful things to say about about Himself in the Qu’ran.

I mean, of course Satan would think God just picks certain people to love and throws the others into Hell, and that it’s God torturing sinners, not the sin. And I think Satan probably does think God is proud braggart, and would depict Him as one if he told somebody like Muhammad about God.
 
Peace be upon him is said or written after every “prophet’s” name in Islam, as a sign of respect. In Islam, Jesus is just a prophet who is a sinless Muslim, doesn’t die on the cross for anybody, and says he never told anyone to worship him.
of course keeps Him useless, but a great man :rolleyes:
The thing that might be accurate about the Islamic view of God is that it does say He loves and is merciful and kind to His followers.
But what do they have to do if anything? all the obedieance and prayers etc to achieve this mercy?
I think this faith is influenced by Satan’s perception of God because God is depicted as hating sinners with wrathful fury, and for a God who cast Satan into Hell for pride, Allah sure has a lot of wonderful things to say about about Himself in the Qu’ran.
I mean, of course Satan would think God just picks certain people to love and throws the others into Hell, and that it’s God torturing sinners, not the sin. And I think Satan probably does think God is proud braggart, and would depict Him as one if he told somebody like Muhammad about God.
hmmm, how do the followers take this if you know? do they just try to behave correctly, and because its such a high reach, they fail?? Making them fear and hate God for putting them through it or even being happy in the pain they are going through for God, which shadows what Jesus did, but is tossing it out the door.

what do you think? If they could understnd the love and mercy is actually there, especially in the person of Christ, but God Himself showed that too, maybe they could see God even though satans bad imagary.
 
Anyhow, my husband doesn’t understand how Satan is Islamically wrong by not bowing to man, and it kind of freaks him out. Because if it looks to him like Satan is Islamically correct in this, no matter how much he tries to understand God’s condemnation here, then is there hope for his (my husband’s) soul?
Very well put and reasoned. I suppose I would say a human being is not an idol in the context Islam …or your husband is looking at it. It is not a graven image or other physical property typical idols are. We are living creature in the image of our Creator with Free Will.

If Peter had disobeyed God when commanded to eat of those things previously forbidden in his vision would be a similar transgression. It was a lawful and justified command as are all things from God as long as they are from God.

There is always hope for his and others souls. Ultimately I believe this:
Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

I’m not sure even the most misguided jihadist is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so I think Christs forgiveness is broader than many might think. It gives me hope.
I’d like to tell my husband my perspective, but I think it might be more offensive to him than enlightening. I hope it makes sense here and it doesn’t seem like I am stretching things.🙂 When you start thinking that parts of the Qu’ran may have been revealled by an evil spirit, reading it gets a lot scarier.
I agree it is scary.
First I thought Islam was respectable enough, like Protestantism, or Judaism. Then I thought it was a bunch of nonsense like Wicca or Scientology. Now it’s kind of frightening.
I was of the same mind about 10 years ago when I started to study Islam. I think what really did it for me was contemplating Matthew 4:1-11 in relation to Mohameds first visitation. I could not get past why Mohamed was ‘chosen’ as a prophet in the manner he was chosen, and then why Mohamed did the things he did in the name of allah.

My first conclusion is that the allah descibed in the Quran is not I AM, not just becasue allah rejects Jesus as Son but because allah gets so much else wrong. My second conclusion off the first was that if allah is not God Mohamed is either a 100% liar and charlatan, or his experience is largely true but is to be understood differently than how Mohamed took it.

The spirit never identified itself as Gabriel (his first wifes uncle did), and after the first experience the visitations/revelations stopped for almost 3 years.

Even with the gnostic texts that influenced Mohameds view of Christianity some things I think are beyond his capacity to conclude on his own, particularly the nature of Satan and his words in the Koran that you have quoted. The subtly of deception is too exact and purposefull for an illiterate to fashion himself, but not for an evil spirit counting on the corruptability of man. Mohamed was not the smartest camel in the pack, but was charasmatic and fairly respected by his home town before the first call and seems a logical choice for deception because he was sincere but ignorant, petty, and supersticious.

It seems logical to ask if not from God, not spoken by Gabriel, and not all from Mohamed- who/what influenced him and why?

Christ showed Satan that one man with conviction could change the world. I think Satan, the same demon that tempted Christ in the desert 600 yrs before gave Mohamed that false conviction, with some well placed lies and threats then left him to his own petty, greedy, and weak human nature to do the rest.

When reading the Quran and history of Mohamed in that context it makes a lot more sense in the good vs evil big picture. Some things are just wrong and some things are just right.

Islam is not right even if everything else is wrong.
 
A wise man once told me that the devil will tell you a thousand truths in order to make you believe one lie.
The devil can make lies look so so inviting. God does not allow evil to do good. Thus what is happening in the world today is evil and not God led.
 
of course keeps Him useless, but a great man :rolleyes:

But what do they have to do if anything? all the obedieance and prayers etc to achieve this mercy?

hmmm, how do the followers take this if you know? do they just try to behave correctly, and because its such a high reach, they fail?? Making them fear and hate God for putting them through it or even being happy in the pain they are going through for God, which shadows what Jesus did, but is tossing it out the door.

what do you think? If they could understnd the love and mercy is actually there, especially in the person of Christ, but God Himself showed that too, maybe they could see God even though satans bad imagary.
They are supposed to do everything it tells them to do in the Qur’an, but God seems really easy going with Muslims. They are judged by their intentions, and it seems doing all these nitpicky little things increases their rewards.

All their sins and good deeds are recorded for review on Judgement Day, but if they are judged on their intentions that should go pretty well. I think most give up trying to follow the rules or try to find clever ways around the rules.

For example, they aren’t supposed to have beverages made from fermented grapes. This is a prohibition against drinking alcohol, but my husband just drinks beer and brandy, but no wine because wine comes from grapes.

It seems that the unforgiveable sin for Muslims is apostating, even if only in your heart. That will probably get you into Hell. God in Islam does not like pagans, and atheists. The Jews have “incurred His wrath” and the Christians have “gone astray.”

Muslims kind of take on this personality. They believe God loves Muslims and doesn’t really love anyone else, at least not as much, because if He did then those people would convert to Islam.

So they are brothers and sisters to other Muslims first, and willing to overlook their sins, especially if they sin against non-Muslims. If they are kind to a non-Muslim, they probably really do care for him, but if he sins against a Muslim, it won’t be overlooked.

The fear of Hell is the vehicle that motivates this religion, rather than the love of God. That is why they perform all these rituals and will not entertain converting. They fear becoming an unbeliever, but they are fairly confident of God’s love because every time something good happens to them it is because God loves Muslims.
 
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