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ZuzuBailey
Guest
How do muslims know that the Quran has not been altered or changed? What proof is there?
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Very nice question.
The Qur’an exists in written form and also memorized by countless individuals who have all been taught the recitation of it by a teacher… who had a teacher… who had a teacher… going all the way back to Muhammad. And the same thing is memorized in Morocco as in Indonesia. Regarding the written form, we have a number of very early manuscripts preserved which are another proof. islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
The first written version had every verse checked by multiple sources before being written down, to ensure accuracy.
The Qur’an exists in written form and also memorized by countless individuals who have all been taught the recitation of it by a teacher… who had a teacher… who had a teacher… going all the way back to Muhammad. And the same thing is memorized in Morocco as in Indonesia. Regarding the written form, we have a number of very early manuscripts preserved which are another proof. islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
The first written version had every verse checked by multiple sources before being written down, to ensure accuracy.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
The Koran is a book of false prophecies attributed to the false prophet Mahomet who was led astray by a demon claiming to be the Archangel Gabriel.
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ericmatthews
Guest
I must thats a bit of well bad answer i belive muhhamed was probly insane but not led by satan and i think to say that a religion that encourages its members to worship God and do good and give to the poor is of Satan is complete foolishness and bigiotryThe Koran is a book of false prophecies attributed to the false prophet Mahomet who was led astray by a demon claiming to be the Archangel Gabriel.
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
An inteligent, objectve, and well supported response:thumbsup:The Koran is a book of false prophecies attributed to the false prophet Mahomet who was led astray by a demon claiming to be the Archangel Gabriel.
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
Well, what evidence do you have he was insain, what disorder, bi polar disorder, schitzophrenia, anti-social personality disorder?I must thats a bit of well bad answer i belive muhhamed was probly insane but not led by satan and i think to say that a religion that encourages its members to worship God and do good and give to the poor is of Satan is complete foolishness and bigiotry
Diagnosing George Cantor with Bi Polar is difficult and he died in the 19th century and we have the well taken notes of his distinguished doctors, how do you claim that a man from before Anselm before modern science with mental disorder?
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ericmatthews
Guest
If he was of Satan he would not have told his followers to give alms to the poor to pray to God(your god our god as pope John Paul II said we worship the same god the one god the living god) thats a parapahse of the speech he gave to some muslims so i may be a little off there… but answer my question why the commands of chairty of mecy of honest of worship if it is of satan who he know is all that is evilWell, what evidence do you have he was insain, what disorder, bi polar disorder, schitzophrenia, anti-social personality disorder?
Diagnosing George Cantor with Bi Polar is difficult and he died in the 19th century and we have the well taken notes of his distinguished doctors, how do you claim that a man from before Anselm before modern science with mental disorder?
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rpp
Guest
Look, I am no fan of Islam and I do not believe that Islam carries the Truth from God. However, several previous posters have made some absolutely egregious attacks against Islam that are unjustifiably nasty and absolutely wrong in all circumstances.
No good Catholic and no well meaning person would make such statements.
No good Catholic and no well meaning person would make such statements.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
4:119 Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.
7:200 If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah; for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
16:98 When thou dost read the Qur’an, seek Allah’s protection from Satan the rejected one.
24:21 O ye who believe! follow not Satan’s footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
Surat an-Nas:
Say, “I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The King of mankind.
The God of mankind.
From the evil of the retreating whisperer -
Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind -
From among the jinn and mankind.”
7:200 If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah; for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
16:98 When thou dost read the Qur’an, seek Allah’s protection from Satan the rejected one.
24:21 O ye who believe! follow not Satan’s footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
Surat an-Nas:
Say, “I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The King of mankind.
The God of mankind.
From the evil of the retreating whisperer -
Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind -
From among the jinn and mankind.”
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ericmatthews
Guest
Thank you for posting these verses i would like someone to tell me how these verses make Islam “satanic” or i challenge u to find me a verse that would it 'satanic"4:119 Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.
7:200 If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah; for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
16:98 When thou dost read the Qur’an, seek Allah’s protection from Satan the rejected one.
24:21 O ye who believe! follow not Satan’s footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
Surat an-Nas:
Say, “I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The King of mankind.
The God of mankind.
From the evil of the retreating whisperer -
Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind -
From among the jinn and mankind.”
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Oh, I posted these verses for the other effect, to show that Islam is not ‘satanic.’ Muslims are told that Satan is their avowed enemy and to seek refuge in God from Satan who is accursed and rejected and evil.
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MugenOne
Guest
When you call for the destruction of the infidels and women as deficient, it’s satanic in nature.
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ericmatthews
Guest
i know u did and i appearcite it it helps me out alot lol i guess i wasnt clear i was just asking those who did think it was to answer those versesOh, I posted these verses for the other effect, to show that Islam is not ‘satanic.’ Muslims are told that Satan is their avowed enemy and to seek refuge in God from Satan who is accursed and rejected and evil.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Women deficient?
Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender,
and men who believe and women who believe,
and men who obey and women who obey,
and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth,
and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere,
and men who are humble and women who are humble,
and men who give alms and women who give alms,
and men who fast and women who fast,
and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty),
and men who remember Allah much and women who remember -
Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.
Same for men as for women.
Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender,
and men who believe and women who believe,
and men who obey and women who obey,
and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth,
and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere,
and men who are humble and women who are humble,
and men who give alms and women who give alms,
and men who fast and women who fast,
and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty),
and men who remember Allah much and women who remember -
Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.
Same for men as for women.
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
Well I won’t contest the first part as I’m not privy to the methodologies of satan, I don’t see why there must be an “Either/Or” set up.If he was of Satan he would not have told his followers to give alms to the poor to pray to God(your god our god as pope John Paul II said we worship the same god the one god the living god) thats a parapahse of the speech he gave to some muslims so i may be a little off there… but answer my question why the commands of chairty of mecy of honest of worship if it is of satan who he know is all that is evil
Why must he be either under satan or a madman?
I find the idea that he was an agent of satan dubious at best and blatant non-sense at worst, the claim he was insain is possible however there is absolutly no data to support it so I don’t know why’d you paint him with that brush
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD’s judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. “On that day of judgment,” says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters’ homes with loot. “On that day,” says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem’s darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD’s anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! “Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground.” Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD’s anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)When you call for the destruction of the infidels and women as deficient, it’s satanic in nature.
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cyberjacques
Guest
This is undoubtedly true. Just out of curiosity, why is it that even though the Catholic Church has the exact same proof for the integrity of the Bible, people still question it?Regarding the written form, we have a number of very early manuscripts preserved which are another proof.
On the subject of the assertions that Islam is a false and violent religion, the argument that it can’t be because it promotes charity is fallacious. Why? Because the Koran has two sets of behavioral instructions. One for interacting with your fellow Muslims, involving charity and mercy, and another for interacting with infidels, involving death, pain, and humiliation.
An angel would never have told Mohammed that there is no Trinity, that Jesus was not God, and that the infidels must die. Charity and mercy are wonderful things, but not slaughtering innocent people is even better. The devil will tell you a thousand truths just to get you to believe one lie.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
The manuscripts of the Qur’an which we have date back to 50 years AH, so only 40 years after the death of Muhammad. There are no NT manuscripts (I don’t know about the OT one way or the other) which date back that far in regards to Jesus–within 40 years after him. Some scholars don’t even believe many NT were texts were written by that point.This is undoubtedly true. Just out of curiosity, why is it that even though the Catholic Church has the exact same proof for the integrity of the Bible, people still question it?
As I explained elsewhere on the forum today, the Qur’an uses the same word for treatment of non-Muslims in the Qur’an as it does for treatment of parents. With kindness and justice. The only exception is for non-Muslims who are fighting the Muslims (literally fighting) or who have expelled the Muslims from their homes.On the subject of the assertions that Islam is a false and violent religion, the argument that it can’t be because it promotes charity is fallacious. Why? Because the Koran has two sets of behavioral instructions. One for interacting with your fellow Muslims, involving charity and mercy, and another for interacting with infidels, involving death, pain, and humiliation.
Unless there is no trinity.An angel would never have told Mohammed that there is no Trinity,
Unless he wasn’t.that Jesus was not God,
Unless those “infidels” are fighting and killing people in the first place, but then the angel would also “tell” (that is, reveal from God) to grant them asylum if they ask for it, and to incline to peace if they incline to peace.and that the infidels must die.
Slaughtering innocent people is not allowed in Islam. Has been condemned in the Qur’an, has been prohibited in even the ‘rules of war.’ Even if Muslims are fighting, they aren’t allowed to kill women, children, the elderly, the sick, any non-combatant, not allowed to poison wells, not even allowed to hurt animals!Charity and mercy are wonderful things, but not slaughtering innocent people is even better.
Indeed. But what is the lie?The devil will tell you a thousand truths just to get you to believe one lie.
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cyberjacques
Guest
Your own words. They are the lie. It’s no secret that the Koran not only allows such things, but even demands it. The Koran itself is very clear on this, and all the oldest interpretations and commentaries on it confirm this. If they are fighting against a population that might convert, they are supposed to be marginally restrained, but if they are fighting against “unrepentant infidels” then there are no limits to what is allowed. There are no non-combatants, no children or elderly, just infidels. And they shall be shown absolutely no mercy.Slaughtering innocent people is not allowed in Islam. Has been condemned in the Qur’an, has been prohibited in even the ‘rules of war.’ Even if Muslims are fighting, they aren’t allowed to kill women, children, the elderly, the sick, any non-combatant, not allowed to poison wells, not even allowed to hurt animals!
Indeed. But what is the lie?
It’s possible that if you were raised Muslim in America or Europe, or converted later in life, that you were taught by moderate Muslims who, to their credit, disagree with the more despicable parts of the Koran and its traditional interpretation. But they do themselves no favors trying to hide the history of their faith. It hurts their credibility and undermines their attempt to change Islam.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I don’t really have anything to hide about Islam. I’d be sad to see this thread turn the way of so many others, the way you’re taking it now…
The Qur’an was transmitted orally by multiple narrators, through multiple chains. So were the ahadith about not fighting non-combatants, so much so that this has the highest status of authenticity. I present it to you as a teaching of the actual religion–not as the teaching of a few extremists who would like to make the blood lawful of anyone who disagrees with them. I don’t take my religion from these extremists–Islam has two sources, the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammad, and they invent their own on a divergent path. Sorry for this kind of a rant, but every single time the Qur’an talks about going to war, it is for a very good reason. Not saying that Muslims have always followed it, but that’s kind of the point.
The Qur’an was transmitted orally by multiple narrators, through multiple chains. So were the ahadith about not fighting non-combatants, so much so that this has the highest status of authenticity. I present it to you as a teaching of the actual religion–not as the teaching of a few extremists who would like to make the blood lawful of anyone who disagrees with them. I don’t take my religion from these extremists–Islam has two sources, the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammad, and they invent their own on a divergent path. Sorry for this kind of a rant, but every single time the Qur’an talks about going to war, it is for a very good reason. Not saying that Muslims have always followed it, but that’s kind of the point.
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