The Rage of the GLBT - Karma for the Church?

[frobert]

I don’t think you have all the facts. A great majority of children in foster care aren’t eligible for adoption because of the court system. In many of these cases, they are from families where the parents are incarcerated due to drugs or a crime. The courts won’t allow them to be adopted because they have blood relatives, but the procedure of allowing them into the care of these relatives is full of red tape and more court proceedings. Adopting a child in many counties across states is the same thing. It’s not as simple as you believe.

Did you actually read the statisic. Here it is again;

397,122 children who are living without permanent families in the foster care system.

101,666 of these children are eligible for adoption, but nearly 32% of these children will wait over three years in foster care before being adopted.​

I know how hard it is from personal experience. My problem was that after being approved except for the Board which was suppose to be a rubber stamp, the board pulled the approval with no reason given. It took me two weeks to locate the social worker who did the home study to find out there are people in this world who pretend to do good but have no compassion. I am not talking about myself I am talking about compassion for the minority brothers I was willing to adopt.

 

[spunjalebi]

Did you actually read the statisic. Here it is again;

397,122 children who are living without permanent families in the foster care system.

101,666 of these children are eligible for adoption, but nearly 32% of these children will wait over three years in foster care before being adopted.​

I know how hard it is from personal experience. My problem was that after being approved except for the Board which was suppose to be a rubber stamp, the board pulled the approval with no reason given. It took me two weeks to locate the social worker who did the home study to find out there are people in this world who pretend to do good but have no compassion. I am not talking about myself I am talking about compassion for the minority brothers I was willing to adopt.

I think there needs to be a distinction made on what constitutes “eligibility.” Children in foster care are eligible, but there need to be court proceedings which are often stressful on the potential parents because a case worker has to advocate for your “diligence” as a parent, AND you get cross-examined. In addition, you have social workers who have racial biases-- such as preventing black children from being fostered or adopted by whites. If there are racial biases, what makes you think there won’t be any toward gays? If you care about the children stuck in foster care, you should insist on the laws being changed to reduce the court proceedings, red tape, social work biases, and paperwork issues. The attempt to blame on it on the whole “gay issue” is just a red herring.

 

[frobert]

I think there needs to be a distinction made on what constitutes “eligibility.” Children in foster care are eligible, but there need to be court proceedings which are often stressful on the potential parents because a case worker has to advocate for your “diligence” as a parent, AND you get cross-examined. In addition, you have social workers who have racial biases-- such as preventing black children from being fostered or adopted by whites. If there are racial biases, what makes you think there won’t be any toward gays? If you care about the children stuck in foster care, you should insist on the laws being changed to reduce the court proceedings, red tape, social work biases, and paperwork issues. The attempt to blame on it on the whole “gay issue” is just a red herring.

I am not blaming anything on the gay issue, my issue has been history for a long time I am commenting on the compassion of so many well meaning Christians. Things are getting better though and more gay men are being approved for adoption even here in Florida.

As far as court holds up, I think it is a good idea to clear up the courts. Please read carefully the part that says:

101,666 of these children are eligible for adoption

Perhaps I am misapprehending but the way it it phased appears to indicate that the hurdles have been cleared and these kids they are waiting for an adoptive family.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The latter statement is better. After all** true** Catholics lie, cheat, steal, hate and gossip. As long as there is no effort to change Church teaching, then I can accept that living the life of a saint may take a lifetime.

Good point Pnewton. I should have said GOOD Catholics rather than true Catholics.

And, yes, it could take a lifetime. The Church understands this…

“… by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should **gradually **and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Then may I ask, why are you even a Catholic and why do you care to argue with this? Your attitude in this thread has also been quite telling…while you may have an empathy face for the GLBT community and the violence and discrimination they’ve faced, with the other face you express derision toward your own brethren.

Because I’m at a point in life when I don’t put my stake in any institution of faith anymore. My derision towards the faith is not so much the teachings but the sheer silliness of Catholicism in today’s culture wars. You have a tenet that enabled the GLBT victim card and you’re wondering why now the whole world hates you? Fail. Just fail.

When will be the day a gay couple walks into a Muslim floral shop and ask for flowers for their wedding? Oh yeah that’s right, never. In this country, Christians more and more are being told how to change their behavior.

Because for the past century, that’s what you’ve been doing to minorities! (Hence, “Karma” in the thread title.) Whatever wrong people are committing against Christianity is something the entire institution (Catholics and Protestants alike) have brought down on itself. But instead of going to the cause of it (hint, it’s not the teaching), you’re trying to play the victim card that you don’t deserve.

But your own behavior and attitude here isn’t helping Catholics embrace a more compassionate stance.

It seems like Catholics are only okay with accountability if it’s not their own institution at the stand eh?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I think there needs to be a distinction made on what constitutes “eligibility.” Children in foster care are eligible, but there need to be court proceedings which are often stressful on the potential parents because a case worker has to advocate for your “diligence” as a parent, AND you get cross-examined.** In addition, you have social workers who have racial biases-- such as preventing black children from being fostered or adopted by whites.** If there are racial biases, what makes you think there won’t be any toward gays? If you care about the children stuck in foster care, you should insist on the laws being changed to reduce the court proceedings, red tape, social work biases, and paperwork issues. The attempt to blame on it on the whole “gay issue” is just a red herring.

There are certainly racial biases in the foster care system, but not the way you suggest instead of social workers trying to prevent black children from going in to white families it is much more that they try to ensure black families always get black kids as are far more black kids in the foster care system than black parents looking to adopt.

I wish adoption was far more pushed in society than in vitro fertilization.

 

[RedFox0456]

Because I’m at a point in life when I don’t put my stake in any institution of faith anymore. My derision towards the faith is not so much the teachings but the sheer silliness of Catholicism in today’s culture wars. You have a tenet that enabled the GLBT victim card and you’re wondering why now the whole world hates you? Fail. Just fail.

Because for the past century, that’s what you’ve been doing to minorities! (Hence, “Karma” in the thread title.) Whatever wrong people are committing against Christianity is something the entire institution (Catholics and Protestants alike) have brought down on itself. But instead of going to the cause of it (hint, it’s not the teaching), you’re trying to play the victim card that you don’t deserve.

It seems like Catholics are only okay with accountability if it’s not their own institution at the stand eh?

Out of curiosity, do you believe the bible to be inerrant? Our is that another silly teaching of our faith?

 

[Sarcelle]

Because I’m at a point in life when I don’t put my stake in any institution of faith anymore. My derision towards the faith is not so much the teachings but the sheer silliness of Catholicism in today’s culture wars. You have a tenet that enabled the GLBT victim card and you’re wondering why now the whole world hates you? Fail. Just fail.

Because for the past century, that’s what you’ve been doing to minorities! (Hence, “Karma” in the thread title.) Whatever wrong people are committing against Christianity is something the entire institution (Catholics and Protestants alike) have brought down on itself. But instead of going to the cause of it (hint, it’s not the teaching), you’re trying to play the victim card that you don’t deserve.

It seems like Catholics are only okay with accountability if it’s not their own institution at the stand eh?

Again the Church never taught that members of the LGBT community should be mistreated. Have Individual Catholics mistreated gays? Of course. But why should you hold the Church responsible for what it has never taught?

Are you looking for enforcement? Should the Church send Swiss Guards to arrest those who have mistreated gays? What else do you want the Church to do? It can preach the dignity of every human being but individuals can make up their own minds on how to treat their fellow humans, in spite of Church teaching.

 

[spunjalebi]

Because I’m at a point in life when I don’t put my stake in any institution of faith anymore. My derision towards the faith is not so much the teachings but the sheer silliness of Catholicism in today’s culture wars. You have a tenet that enabled the GLBT victim card and you’re wondering why now the whole world hates you? Fail. Just fail.

Oh how funny, because turns out the whole world doesn’t hate us. No one Christian denomination is guiltless in how they’ve treated the GLBT community; that part is true. However, if you really don’t want to put a stake in any faith institution…why are you here? You’re pointing at us about causing a culture war, but you’re at war with yourself. It makes no sense to tell us all how much we smell when your attitude stinks just as much.

Because for the past century, that’s what you’ve been doing to minorities! (Hence, “Karma” in the thread title.) Whatever wrong people are committing against Christianity is something the entire institution (Catholics and Protestants alike) have brought down on itself. But instead of going to the cause of it (hint, it’s not the teaching), you’re trying to play the victim card that you don’t deserve.

Even funnier, I am a minority, and the minority who came up with karma in the first place. That argument isn’t going to work with me. FTR, my ancestors also had to deal with being told their behavior needed to change for the wrong reasons, but I can’t blame Christians. That was a cultural failure, not a religious one. Right now, you’re trying to make the argument for a religious failure where there is none to make. It wasn’t the Church who said to kill, discriminate, and ostracize gays. Those were the collective acts of individuals who ignored Church teaching on treating your brother with respect, just like people ignored the Church teaching when it came to racial relations.

It seems like Catholics are only okay with accountability if it’s not their own institution at the stand eh?

Nice try, but no cigar. Don’t act like you are blameless either, or else your poor attitude wouldn’t be getting the response it does. Many Catholics work hard to institute Christ-like behavior with gays and non-gays, secular and non-secular, etc. Just because the Church says they do not regard homosexual acts to be ordered doesn’t mean there is bigotry or hate. People bring that in themselves.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

I’ve seen so many debates here regarding homosexuality but I often have trouble seeing this particular sub-topic being discussed.

But before I go on, here’s a disclaimer: I don’t care for the GLBT agenda. To half the gays I know, I’m a friend but the kind of friend that’s never without a Fred Sanford-style remark.

What I don’t get is so why are so many Christians crying about the GLBT agenda winning so many hearts and sympathies? I just don’t get it. You’re talking about a minority that really has been bullied, harassed, and marginalized by religious authorities.

Now I hear Christians whining about them playing the victim card. Well Mr. Fred Phelps, who do you think gave them that card in the first place?

Don’t you think it’s intellectually dishonest for Catholics to engage in a culture war with the GLBT movement and ignore just how much of its anger came from religious mistreatment? Don’t any of you even consider the idea that the whole movement was a backlash waiting to happen?

How could anyone act like this wasn’t coming?

How can this be karma for the Church? The Church does nothing except to tell sinners to confess their sins and amend their lives. Don’t blame the Church for what individuals do.

 

[spunjalebi]

How can this be karma for the Church? The Church does nothing except to tell sinners to confess their sins and amend their lives. Don’t blame the Church for what individuals do.

Maybe he expected the Church to take a heavier stance against those who mistreated gays? If we ask that question, then we need to ask why the Church didn’t take a strong stance across various events and issues throughout history. I believe the Church did what she could against injustices and atrocities. However, the OP is making a case as if the Church is the one waving the fans on the fire, when many individuals who happen to be Christian are the ones waving.

I did a recent reading on the attitudes toward the Church from the GLBT community. It seems most of the anger stems from the Church now accepting their lifestyle. I’ve already perused a few of the threads regarding homosexuality, and it would appear a lot of people believe their sexual lifestyle should be accepted. Living life as a gay and celibate seems to be some sort of condemnation or punishment, and because of that we are the cruel bigots who hate gays:shrug:

If I were still single, I would live a celibate life until marriage because that to me, is the right thing to do, and the moral thing to do as a Christian. Are single people to start complaining about how awful waiting until marriage is because they marry later in life? What happens to the meat-loving person who abstains from consuming meat during Lent? Is the Church infringing upon their lifestyle to eat meat, and thereby enacting some form of institutional punishment?

Just because the Church-- and Christianity by and large-- says a homosexual act is wrong doesn’t mean we hate gays. Nor are we in favor for supporting discriminatory behavior and laws. Sometimes I wonder if the anger is unduly misdirected.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Out of curiosity, do you believe the bible to be inerrant? Our is that another silly teaching of our faith?

Irrelevant. You’re demonstrating just to what silly extent Catholicism goes to as much as their equally silly Protestant brethren in tackling the gay issue.

But why should you hold the Church responsible for what it has never taught?

More wool. The fact is a certain tenet enabled this misinterpretation. Ironically, Protestantism itself stemmed from the Church acting way too slow to get similar misunderstandings in check. Today, we have the GLBT.

What’s insanity again? Right, it’s repeating the same mistake while expecting a different result.

Are you looking for enforcement? Should the Church send Swiss Guards to arrest those who have mistreated gays?

That would be a good start actually.

However, if you really don’t want to put a stake in any faith institution…why are you here? You’re pointing at us about causing a culture war, but you’re at war with yourself. It makes no sense to tell us all how much we smell when your attitude stinks just as much.

As if I’m the one whining about fast food chains promoting Pride Parades or gays being more open about their lifestyle. Why assume I’m at war with myself when Catholicism is no longer a valued part of my identity? Did the Good Shepherd beat his sheep when it strayed from the flock? Did it say that it ‘attitude stank’?

Frankly it’s attitudes like yours that add to my list of reasons to discredit this religion.

It wasn’t the Church who said to kill, discriminate, and ostracize gays. Those were the collective acts of individuals who ignored Church teaching on treating your brother with respect, just like people ignored the Church teaching when it came to racial relations.

Sorry but it does share a responsibility when your own religious teachings enable that kind of violence. Did Jesus just keep His mouth shut when Peter cut of some guy’s ear to protect him? No. He actually healed the guy.

Nice try, but no cigar. Don’t act like you are blameless either, or else your poor attitude wouldn’t be getting the response it does.

Spare me the ridiculous notion of blame. Your religion is the one who puts some emotional stake in that concept. I’m just asking you how your own medicine tastes doc.

Oh and for the record? I can’t say your response is similar to the healing Christ did.

 

[spunjalebi]

Irrelevant. You’re demonstrating just to what silly extent Catholicism goes to as much as their equally silly Protestant brethren in tackling the gay issue.

More wool. The fact is a certain tenet enabled this misinterpretation. Ironically, Protestantism itself stemmed from the Church acting way too slow to get similar misunderstandings in check. Today, we have the GLBT.

What’s insanity again? Right, it’s repeating the same mistake while expecting a different result.

That would be a good start actually.

As if I’m the one whining about fast food chains promoting Pride Parades or gays being more open about their lifestyle. Why assume I’m at war with myself when Catholicism is no longer a valued part of my identity? Did the Good Shepherd beat his sheep when it strayed from the flock? Did it say that it ‘attitude stank’?

Frankly it’s attitudes like yours that add to my list of reasons to discredit this religion.

Sorry but it does share a responsibility when your own religious teachings enable that kind of violence. Did Jesus just keep His mouth shut when Peter cut of some guy’s ear to protect him? No. He actually healed the guy.

Spare me the ridiculous notion of blame. Your religion is the one who puts some emotional stake in that concept. I’m just asking you how your own medicine tastes doc.

Oh and for the record? I can’t say your response is similar to the healing Christ did.

Yet, you keep coming back for more pointing fingers, telling us all how much we suck. You’re not helping your own case.

You know Jesus also told people pointedly when they were doing wrong, and wasn’t afraid to be just as blunt, right? FWIW, my problem here isn’t with the gay community, or the Church, or the way the Church handles this issue…it’s with YOUR attitude.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Yet, you keep coming back for more pointing fingers, telling us all how much we suck. You’re not helping your own case.

My own case is that I’m sick of hearing hypocrites whining and then being the laughing stock of my friends on social media because they’ve been subject to their hate. I don’t know about you but I don’t see anything counterproductive to either telling you all to suck it in or work harder (because clearly, you aren’t).

Repeat: It’s not the gays. It’s not the Church teaching. It’s the whining and the Church’s ridiculous involvement in this laughable culture war.

You know Jesus also told people pointedly when they were doing wrong, and wasn’t afraid to be just as blunt, right?

Tut-tut-tut. Again. Diversion. Who did Jesus tell off? Was it the guy whose ear his best friend cut off?

 

[spunjalebi]

My own case is that I’m sick of hearing hypocrites whining and then being the laughing stock of my friends on social media because they’ve been subject to their hate. I don’t know about you but I don’t see anything counterproductive to either telling you all to suck it in or work harder (because clearly, you aren’t).

Repeat: It’s not the gays. It’s not the Church teaching. It’s the whining and the Church’s ridiculous involvement in this laughable culture war.

Tut-tut-tut. Again. Diversion. Who did Jesus tell off? Was it the guy whose ear his best friend cut off?

You mean it’s the “whining and the American Church’s ridiculous involvement”? Let’s be honest here, who are you really angry with?

Diversion-- you’re not being honest about what’s actually making you angry here. You keep deflecting when people ask you simple questions and insist it’s their fault. People have asked you here several times why you are bothering, and you reply you’re angry with the Church, the Church made itself a target, and you aim to discredit the Church. So I will repeat myself again. Who are you REALLY angry with?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You mean it’s the “whining and the American Church’s ridiculous involvement”? Let’s be honest here, who are you really angry with?

Diversion-- you’re not being honest about what’s actually making you angry here. You keep deflecting when people ask you simple questions and insist it’s their fault. People have asked you here several times why you are bothering, and you reply you’re angry with the Church, the Church made itself a target, and you aim to discredit the Church. So I will repeat myself again. Who are you REALLY angry with?

I’d have to be pretty blind to 90% of CAF posts if I say that the Church doesn’t have a self-sustaining PR problem that doesn’t, in some ludicrous way, always traces itself back to the publicity of the American Church.

The thing is you’re making distinctions that are irrelevant to the GLBT community and it sympathizers. And really, it is irrelevant. You have a tenet that’s a fertilizer for homophobia but instead of keeping that mutant weed from growing, you let it wreak havoc and then complain about the angry neighbors.

I gave my suggestion didn’t I? Either suck it up, stop whining, and butt out of the culture war OR you can start pulling the weeds and not a single gripe from the rocks thrown at you cuz you really should’ve done it sooner.

 

[pnewton]

Repeat: It’s not the gays. It’s not the Church teaching. It’s the whining and the Church’s ridiculous involvement in this laughable culture war.

That entrenched sin can be thought of as laughable is why the Church should never cease to spread the Gospel so that at least those with ears can listen. The homosexual movement is but one aspect of the degradation of American (and Western) society.

 

[frobert]

The thing is you’re making distinctions that are irrelevant to the GLBT community and it sympathizers. And really, it is irrelevant. You have a tenet that’s a fertilizer for homophobia but instead of keeping that mutant weed from growing, you let it wreak havoc and then complain about the angry neighbors.

Your observations are correct. One small quibble, it is not just GLBT sympathizers who are turned off but a case can be made that it is the anti-GLBT rhetoric that has accelerated the acceptance of GLBT civil rights. Gestalt psychology has a tenant that behind every resentment is an appreciation. Perhaps we should be more appreciative of the anti-GLBT rhetoric that works in favor of civil rights and that does not harm youths and suggestible adults.

 

[SMGS127]

Your observations are correct. One small quibble, it is not just GLBT sympathizers who are turned off but a case can be made that it is the anti-GLBT rhetoric that has accelerated the acceptance of GLBT civil rights. Gestalt psychology has a tenant that behind every resentment is an appreciation. Perhaps we should be more appreciative of the anti-GLBT rhetoric that works in favor of civil rights and that does not harm youths and suggestible adults.

The modern LGBT movement didn’t even spark until the police overreached and beat a whole bunch of gay people for no reason. Most movements react to some sort of abuse. And the ongoing abuse in our modern-day culture is what keeps fanning the flames.