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estesbob
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I dont see this at all.What I see is any criticism of homosexual behavior bring derided as bigotry and discrimination.
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Thinking10
Guest
My view on homosexuality: Homosexuality is not something that should be supported or promoted, but homosexuals should not be treated with disrespect. Homosexuality cannot replace heterosexuality, and so should not be considered an equal alternative to heterosexuality. If homosexuals want to live as homosexuals, that is their choice, but they should keep their choice low key and out of the public’s concern. The best option in my view is to let them live that lifestyle quietly, and be quiet about it in return. It is entirely a personal matter and should be left as a personal matter.
There is a difference between outlawing homosexual relationships and persecuting homosexuals, and a society where homosexual relationships are not singled out as a legally recognized relationship, such as a marriage or civil union. I agree that we should not deny homosexuals the ability to have relationships if that is what they feel they need. However, when we are talking about granting these relationships official social status similar or equivalent to marriage, we need to ask what place homosexuality has in society, and for what reason our society should recognize homosexual relationships. We are talking about taking a private matter, a relationship between people, and making it a public matter.
Why should homosexuality become a concern of the public? Legally recognizing homosexual relationships isn’t about grant or denying anything to homosexuals. It is about what homosexuality can do for society. Granting a relationship legal status isn’t a gift to that relationship as much as it is an investment. With heterosexual marriage, it is understood that benefits given to those marriages will yield a return on the investment in the form of new children. What return on investment can homosexuality provide? The negative results can be seen through statistics such as STD rates among homosexual men and other statistics.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
The criticism, no matter how spiritually/theologically/rationally/whatever-ally legit, has justified violent, unjust, and downright contrary behavior towards homosexuals. The tenet gave them what they needed to create a hand grenade.
This in turn snowballed back onto the Christian religion and now members are whining persecution and think the apocalypse is at hand. Regardless of whatever statistics you demand, this is how it is now in the arena of public opinion. Generalizations have to come from somewhere and yet Christians are more about redirecting and pointing fingers instead of hunting down the actual source of perceived hostilities. Oh no, it’s off to the culture war! Charge on to the moral crusade!
That is my real issue. Why aren’t Christians hunting down the people who threw the grenade? Why are they protesting Pride Parades more often than they are the Phelps or any other uncharitable Christian organization that stereotypically fuels the GLBT’s equally stereotypical anger?
Has it ever occurred to any of you that if not one person used this tenet to abuse people with SSA, the GLBT movement would have even existed?
Right. Let’s ignore the physical discrimination Christians have meted against homosexuals just because the religion forbids their brand of sexual intercourse.
Who was the Party of Entitlement again?
The Pope can excommunicate the mafia but are you suggesting the institution is too scared to express more public condemnation against anti-homosexual violence and abuse?
You say unjust treatment is wrong so why is this religion still too preoccupied with the unjust treatment from those outside it when it stems from unjust treatment from those hiding in the proverbial pews (or worse, preaching from pulpits)?
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spunjalebi
Guest
To be honest, I agree with your stance here. People have accused me of hating gays or being a bigot for having these views, but I am not one to promote policies where it’s okay to go after gays and execute them like other countries do. However, because I believe they should “live that lifestyle quietly,” I am seen as a bigot.
I think the problem with asking what investment gays can provide yields a more important question-- why is it so important to think about what the gays can or cannot provide when straight couples aren’t yielding much nowadays? Many middle class women are choosing to have children out of wedlock, fewer people are marrying, more people are cohabiting outside of marriage, and many married straight couples aren’t having children.
I am personally torn on this issue. Like the OP said, there are enough debates and threads here about homosexuality and I didn’t want to start a new one…but I do have questions. At the end of the day, my final question is what does the State recognizing a legal union between two gays have to do with MY sacrament? Why should I care about how the State chooses to recognize unions when the State clearly isn’t concerned about saving the family, promoting healthy communities, or protecting the innocent and vulnerable in society? Just because they choose to change the definition of marriage doesn’t mean that changes the Church’s definition of marriage and what I believe. If the State went into anarchy tomorrow, and my marriage certificate was invalid it doesn’t change the fact I knew what I was doing on my wedding day, and I have a sacramental and valid marriage with my husband.
Before someone gets me wrong, I am not going to actively campaign in support of legal recognition of gay unions. I never have. Nor will I attend a “gay wedding,” because I don’t recognize their union as a real marriage in the same way I’d recognize a marriage between two Muslims, or two Jews, or a civil wedding. I just don’t see the point anymore in fighting a battle that’s clearly been “lost,” especially when recent Gallup and Pew surveys have shown the majority of Americans support the legalization of gay marriage. As far as I’m concerned, the State will do what it wants and is no longer invested in protecting what stabilizes society.
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spunjalebi
Guest
What are your views toward the Christian businesses who have been fined or had their businesses suffer because they refused to serve gay weddings? Do Christians have rights at all? Honestly, I am waiting for the day where a gay couple waltzes into a business owned by a Muslim and asks them to bake a cake for them or do their photography. I doubt what happens to the Christian owners will happen to them and if so, that is discrimination toward Christians.
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spunjalebi
Guest
The mere fact we believe their lifestyle-- aka, the sexual acts they engage in-- are wrong is equivalent to “we’re out to get you.” What the gay community wants to see from Catholics, and Christians by and large, is we support their sexual behavior. We all know that’s not going to happen.
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frobert
Guest
Let me say upfront, I am not offended that the CC and or religions want to discourage SS marriage for faith based reasons as long as they are honest and play fair which I think for the most part they do.
****There are over one thousand federal laws in which marriage status is a factor. These laws confer rights, protections, and benefits to married couples – from Social Security survivor benefits to federal tax benefits to federal employee health and retirement benefits. Let’s think about that.
Some of the federal benefits that same-sex married couples may now receive
I can answer that.
There are many contributions married people gay or straight make to their communities other than children. Depending on your perspective there are economic and family benefits. One ROI that is well known is that SS couples adopt many hard to place children. Let’s think about that.
Regardless, let’s think about STD rates.
The highest overall rates of are correlated with social and economic conditions. Why aren’t we talking about that? Let’s think about that.
What Benefits Do Same-Sex Married Couples Qualify for Now?
****There are over one thousand federal laws in which marriage status is a factor. These laws confer rights, protections, and benefits to married couples – from Social Security survivor benefits to federal tax benefits to federal employee health and retirement benefits. Let’s think about that.
Some of the federal benefits that same-sex married couples may now receive
- Social Security Benefits
- Married couples get a big financial boost from certain Social Security benefit programs that have not historically applied to same-sex couples.
- Spousal survivor benefit. A surviving spouse of a worker entitled to Social Security retirement or disability benefits may be entitled to receive retirement benefits based on the deceased spouse’s earning record.
- Spousal retirement benefit. For retired married couples, a person whose calculated Social Security benefit is lower than that of his or her spouse may take half of his or her spouse’s higher benefit, rather than receive the amount calculated from his own earnings.
- Lump-sum death benefit. A surviving spouse gets $255 from the federal government to help pay for funeral arrangements.
Do you really think that is a relevant question? What would you say if I asked “what would civilization be like without the [”]contributions from known homosexuals ]("Google[/url)throughout the centries? Let’s think about that,
What ROI do non childless marriage provide that SS marriages can not provide?
I can answer that.
There are many contributions married people gay or straight make to their communities other than children. Depending on your perspective there are economic and family benefits. One ROI that is well known is that SS couples adopt many hard to place children. Let’s think about that.
What does that have to do with gay men who what the opportunity to live in monogamous marriage?
Regardless, let’s think about STD rates.
cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm"]Source: CDC
The highest overall rates of are correlated with social and economic conditions. Why aren’t we talking about that? Let’s think about that.
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CesarAugustus
Guest
The mafia excommunication wasn’t a juridical excommunication.
The lgbt movement was going to happen anyways. Why? Antonio Gramsci, Wilhelm Reich, Herbert Marcuse, etc. That movement is used as a political tool for cultural marxists (new left, contemporary socialist movements, various liberal groups, etc).
Anyways, Catholicism isn’t in a good shape to engage in a cultural war, it seems.
Maybe under someone like a Benedict XIV (Prospero Lambertini) or a Bl. Pius IX (Giovanni Maria Mastai-Ferretti) could be easier.
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estesbob
Guest
Again lots of generalities with no facts.What criticism allegedly caused this violence? Who are these people you are so anxious to excommunicate? We’re did you get the idea that the Church has not condemned unjust treatment of homosexuals. ?
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Tigg
Guest
**In a nutshell. ** I imagine it’s pretty difficult for a GLBT to wrestle with their own conscience which they probably do on a daily basis…think the voice of God here which is present in every individual, whether religious or not. However, this cognitive dissonance takes place within the interior faculties whereas the voice of resistance happens in many exterior forms and is harder to ignore. Therefore the, “we’re out to get you” mentality is not so hard to understand. Why they cannot be silent about their condition but must tell everyone who they are, is because they do want society to accept their behavior as normal; to be affirmed when indeed, the very laws of nature cry out against them. What a difficult life they live. Too bad they cannot accept that every individual has crosses to bear and some even more serious than homosexuality. Too bad they cannot accept themselves by looking to God who made them and understand that only in surrender to the gospel truth can they find peace and redemption.
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Ben_Carmine
Guest
Got a lot right here. The “condemnation rather than compassion” part for one thing, and the redirection part especially.
Every time someone tries to redirect to what’s happening elsewhere I always think it’s akin to saying you shouldn’t help the homeless because there’s kids dying in Africa. There’s always something much worse happening elsewhere, but what has that got to do with what’s happening here.
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SMGS127
Guest
No, the reason gay people are out about who they are is because:
A) People used to pretend that LGB people were an extraordinarily small minority (much smaller than the 3.7% they actually make up);
B) Without references to counteract their claims, people posted videos like this lovely video in schools and for home video purposes:
youtube.com/watch?v=r_NAl4AkmjU
C) People claimed gays were pedophiles and were taken seriously;
D) People told their kids that gays didn’t exist and that they needed to just suck up their attractions;
…and a whole bunch other lovely stuff!
Now, gays stay loud so that people at least know they exist and that stereotypes and false representations are not accurate.
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manualman
Guest
Some perspective is perhaps required. I can relate rather well. Way back in high school I was walking home and was jeered at by a couple of thugs out smoking weed between two houses. They didn’t like the long scarf I had on (January). They yelled something, I yelled something back at 'em (can’t say what because I never did get full memory back) and they decided I needed to learn a lesson. They caught up and all I know is that I ended up stumbling home with a broken jaw, 6 broken teeth, a concussion and no memory of what happened after the initial yelling. Given that it was the 1980’s I’m pretty sure the word “fa###t” was hurled at my in there somewhere. (Universal insult back then)
But you know what? The thing had nothing to do with “homophobia” at all. It had to do with two losers failing in school, with a rotten homelife and desperately trying to find something to feel good about. In this case, they decided to make themselves feel tough by taking down somebody that they could take down. It was about their own demons, not some consuming hatred for homosexuals. Pretty good chance your experience involved something similar. They weren’t out looking for gays to hurt, they were out looking for some way to feel better than somebody else. Anything would do.
For what it’s worth, you’re obviously tougher than me. It took THREE guys to take you down! Just two for me!
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Tigg
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I find it rather interesting that out of my entire post - you address only one sentence when the whole thing was connected. You are speaking from a secular viewpoint and I’m speaking from a spiritual one. (This is a Catholic forum, after all.) Yes, even a video from the 60’s can misrepresent the issue, but how has the movement countered? By denying parental rights and through the indoctrination of children through the public school system that their lifestyle is normal and moral.
It isn’t enough for the GLBT crowd just to confide in their therapists, their confessors and the people they most trust which would surely be more beneficial to them in terms of seeking healing and inner peace. The crucial point is this - keeping their problems to themselves and focusing on their individual struggle with disordered inclinations would not force societal acceptance. Your sexuality is no business of mine. Period. Don’t ask, and please don’t tell!
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SMGS127
Guest
Can you showcase how gays are indoctrinating children through the school system that being actively gay (there is no such thing as a “gay lifestyle”) is normal? Because I can certainly think of ways that people are telling children that they are okay however they are, even if they are attracted to members of the same sex (e.g. gay/lesbian), but not what you are describing.
Gay people only come out publicly if they have to. Neil Patrick Harris came out in response to a tabloid threatening to out him. Jodie Foster never “came out;” she merely thanked her ex-girlfriend when accepting an award. Ellen DeGeneres came out to help kids stop despairing over same-sex attractions – to show that it was a real thing that could happen and that they were perfectly okay. Michael Sam came out to try to destigmatize SSAs in sports. Ellen Page came out in order to show bullied kids she sympathized with them from her own experience.
The idea that gay people “force” their orientation on anyone else is a huge conservative mythical creation.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
You speak of facts. Did you read the entire thread? Look at your own reaction. That is mounting evidence enough!
And again, Catholic Church =/= Christianity. Got that part? Good. Because I deliberately make no distinction between the two in this debate. As someone already said, the Church still shares the burden of even the sins committed by non-Catholic sectors. So please, spare me your constant nagging of generalizations.
Where do you think these generalizations come from. They will always be in some way based in fact.
Or are you suggesting that the Christian people have never so much touched a hair on a homosexual’s head in defense of its anti-sodomy tenets?
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SoulSolace
Guest
So you are saying it’s the actual teachings that are wrong, and not the individuals that distort those teachings and use them as their springboards?
On that logic there are many things I could blame on many people who distorted and twisted philosophies and ideologies, and teachings to suit their own selfish desires.
God bless.
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spunjalebi
Guest
A lot of gays don’t think they should have to hide their SSA and believe they are as entitled to be open about it. I’ve heard the argument, “Straight people announce how straight they are all the time. The world has a heterosexist bias, so what’s the big deal?”
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Just the complete reverse! I’m not gay. I 100% don’t give a flying noodle about what the Church actually condemns. I just find it incredibly telling when Christians cry about being ‘persecuted’ by the GLBT movement when it was created by the very same people who took that law waaaaaaay too seriously.
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Tigg
Guest
Several years ago, a case was reported in major news sources involving a parent and the Massachusetts PS system in which the parent objected to his child being given a text book entitled “King and King.” The illustrations at the end showed two men kissing – does this qualify as being “actively gay” (your descriptive above?) IIRC, the parent was told this class was not an opt-out for his child and the case went to court. This is just one of many examples of the harm being done to the broader society.
Well, you’ll never convince me. There are threads on this very forum if you care to search where the debate was between posters who admitted to not only being gay, but wanting and needing others to know. The debate went something like this:
Poster #1: I am gay and Catholic. You need to accept me for who I am in your parish. The Church said so.
**Poster #2: ** That’s too much information. You are a child of God and that’s all I need to know. I must treat everyone, no matter who they are, with dignity and respect.
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