The Rage of the GLBT - Karma for the Church?

[Tigg]

It is hard to have a thread start with such a loaded concept as “thread” and “karma” not turn ugly.

Public opinion is a fickle concept, one that it is hard to play to. Unlike truth, it is amorphous and evolving. I suspect that the pendulum will swing back against them and sympathy will wane as they become more outrageous with their demands for special treatment. Once demands are met, it fuels the desire for more.

How is the Gay Agenda like a parish liturgy committee? Both are always wanting more and neither can be negotiated with.

Now this is a brilliant post!

 

[CatholicSheila]

This is really a bad attitude to have towards discrimination. I don’t think Christ said it was okay to look down on other people, so long as they had it coming. The actions towards the LGBT community were wrong, yes, but that doesn’t condone how members of the Church are starting to be treated. I don’t get this mentality of eye-for-an-eye. You don’t have to be a Christian to see that’s not the right way. It also shouldn’t be on some scale of severity. Discrimination is simply wrong regardless of who it is targeted towards and who is discriminating.

The actions towards the LGBT community “were” wrong? That’s the disagreement. The discrimination against the LGBT community by Christians is ongoing and I see nothing to suggest that it will be ending anytime soon.

For me to accept that the discrimination has now reversed and it is Christians who are the victims, I’d have to see that the discrimination against the LGBT community has stopped. I don’t see the reactions towards Christians as discrimiation - I see them as self protection because of what the LGBT community has endured.

 

[estesbob]

The actions towards the LGBT community “were” wrong? That’s the disagreement. The discrimination against the LGBT community by Christians is ongoing and I see nothing to suggest that it will be ending anytime soon.

For me to accept that the discrimination has now reversed and it is Christians who are the victims, I’d have to see that the discrimination against the LGBT community has stopped. I don’t see the reactions towards Christians as discrimiation - I see them as self protection because of what the LGBT community has endured.

What actions towards homosexuals by the Church was wrong? How did the Church unjustly discriminate against homosexuals.I can’t think of a single sexual sin that has not endured so why does enduring in sin make homosexuals unique?

 

[CatholicSheila]

What actions towards homosexuals by the Church was wrong? How did the Church unjustly discriminate against homosexuals.I can’t think of a single sexual sin that has not endured so why does enduring in sin make homosexuals unique?

Please point out where I said “the church did x”? I have never accused the church of unjustly discriminating against homosexuals.

I said “Christians discriminate”. That is a very different statement. It is not every Christian, but it is a significant number that it has had a profound impact on those who suffer as a result. Their behaviour is not in line with what the Church teaches, but many do hold it up as been in line with Church teaching.

If you are going to disagree with me, please at least disagree with what I actually say.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

What actions towards homosexuals by the Church was wrong? How did the Church unjustly discriminate against homosexuals.I can’t think of a single sexual sin that has not endured so why does enduring in sin make homosexuals unique?

The Church didn’t discriminate against them, indeed Catholic countries were most of the early countries to eliminate sodomy as a crime and the English bishops were pushing for decriminalization of it starting in the 1950s. In stark contrast to those English bishops stand quite a few Catholics today who defend countries in sub-Saharan Africa having laws that punish two men kissing with over a decade in prison as morally just.

 

[pnewton]

I said “Christians discriminate”. That is a very different statement.

This is a good example of the interconnectivity of humanity, especially within the Body of Christ. *We *sin when one of us sins. Even though personal guilt is not imputed to us all, the consequence of the sin of Christians becomes the burden of the Church.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

This is a good example of the interconnectivity of humanity, especially within the Body of Christ. *We *sin when one of us sins. Even though personal guilt is not imputed to us all, the consequence of the sin of Christians becomes the burden of the Church.

I’ll be addressing some of the other points on this thread beginning with this quote.

Firstly, you’ve described the best reason why Catholics shouldn’t be quick to disassociate themselves from the non-Catholic take on the issue: public opinion. One shouldn’t underestimate its capacity to create a perceived reality that rivals objective truth. (Case in point: the heydays of geocentrism.) It’s one thing for individual Catholics to claim no responsibility for the sins of other sects. That would be classified as personal or private opinion. It’s another thing when you start battling it out on some moral crusade and trying to get others to ‘raise their voice.’ When you share a ‘culture war’ without thinking, you’ll be sharing the casualties of it as well.

Secondly, I really hate it when people say “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Unless you’re as sinless as the Virgin Mary, this is really an immature way to admit that a certain tenet in Christianity was used to justify the oppression of a minority. After that, it’s redirection from there. (“What about Muslims?” “Why aren’t blind people getting special treatment?”) I thought this religion preached accountability?

People are saying the Church condemns homosexual acts but at the same time teaches compassion for those with SSA. That’s not entirely self-contradictory but it seems like the reality is more on emphasizing condemnation rather than the compassion part. (The reception this thread has gotten certainly goes to prove that point.)

Thirdly, let’s get back to this really, really stupid habit of redirection. So what if Muslims and some parts of Africa aren’t being decried? Does that in anyway give Catholics a right to dig the entire institution deeper? Strategy-wise, it’s ridiculously inefficient. “We’ve proven others are just as no-account as we are! Quick! Let’s make it worse and keep at justifying homophobic violence while they’re distracted. Excommunicating the gay bashers in our religion is just sooooo hard.”

 

[RedFox0456]

I’ll be addressing some of the other points on this thread beginning with this quote.

Firstly, you’ve described the best reason why Catholics shouldn’t be quick to disassociate themselves from the non-Catholic take on the issue: public opinion. One shouldn’t underestimate its capacity to create a perceived reality that rivals objective truth. (Case in point: the heydays of geocentrism.) It’s one thing for individual Catholics to claim no responsibility for the sins of other sects. That would be classified as personal or private opinion. It’s another thing when you start battling it out on some moral crusade and trying to get others to ‘raise their voice.’ When you share a ‘culture war’ without thinking, you’ll be sharing the casualties of it as well.

Secondly, I really hate it when people say “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Unless you’re as sinless as the Virgin Mary, this is really an immature way to admit that a certain tenet in Christianity was used to justify the oppression of a minority. After that, it’s redirection from there. (“What about Muslims?” “Why aren’t blind people getting special treatment?”) I thought this religion preached accountability?

People are saying the Church condemns homosexual acts but at the same time teaches compassion for those with SSA. That’s not entirely self-contradictory but it seems like the reality is more on emphasizing condemnation rather than the compassion part. (The reception this thread has gotten certainly goes to prove that point.)

Thirdly, let’s get back to this really, really stupid habit of redirection. So what if Muslims and some parts of Africa aren’t being decried? Does that in anyway give Catholics a right to dig the entire institution deeper? Strategy-wise, it’s ridiculously inefficient. “We’ve proven others are just as no-account as we are! Quick! Let’s make it worse and keep at justifying homophobic violence while they’re distracted. Excommunicating the gay bashers in our religion is just sooooo hard.”

You think “two wrongs don’t make a right” is childish? Ignoring it is childish. The road goes both ways in that statement. Regardless of what the Church has done, unjust treatment is wrong. As well, regardless of what we perceive is being done to us, we are called to love. I mean… I’m quite positive when I made that statement I in no way moved it in any direction other than this. But that’s fine that you want to shoot down the advice that calls each side to a higher standard than mud-slinging.

Sure, some people in the Church have a hard time differentiating between the act and the person. At my own parish summer camp there was a family that wasn’t on board with an adult volunteer returning because he was openly gay, and practicing (with discretion, so he wasn’t advertising). And yet I watched as the director of the camp, a hard line Catholic, stated to the pastor that I the volunteer didn’t return then he wouldn’t return, either. The director went to bat for someone you seem yo think he should have been putting down. Then I watched as the pastor agreed that the family was out of line and that the matter was closed. In fact, the majority of our volunteers were in full support. To be precise… About 98% of us, including the pastor, sided with our friend because he did not deserve to be discriminated against.

Seriously? Excommunicating gay bashers? If the Church decided to do that, she’d probably go ahead and excommunicate way more people at the same time. I mean, murderers aren’t even excommunicated as far as I know. It takes a lot to be excommunicated. Being a jerk isn’t really counted among that list. The Church could, however, point out very publicly that such behavior is sinful and that those people who are insulting, discriminating, etc. should not be receiving communion because they are engaging in sinful behavior. The faithful will listen and take it to heart.

 

[frobert]

I’ll be addressing some of the other points on this thread beginning with this quote.

Firstly, you’ve described the best reason why Catholics shouldn’t be quick to disassociate themselves from the non-Catholic take on the issue: public opinion. One shouldn’t underestimate its capacity to create a perceived reality that rivals objective truth. (Case in point: the heydays of geocentrism.) It’s one thing for individual Catholics to claim no responsibility for the sins of other sects. That would be classified as personal or private opinion. It’s another thing when you start battling it out on some moral crusade and trying to get others to ‘raise their voice.’ When you share a ‘culture war’ without thinking, you’ll be sharing the casualties of it as well.

Secondly, I really hate it when people say “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Unless you’re as sinless as the Virgin Mary, this is really an immature way to admit that a certain tenet in Christianity was used to justify the oppression of a minority. After that, it’s redirection from there. (“What about Muslims?” “Why aren’t blind people getting special treatment?”) I thought this religion preached accountability?

People are saying the Church condemns homosexual acts but at the same time teaches compassion for those with SSA. That’s not entirely self-contradictory but it seems like the reality is more on emphasizing condemnation rather than the compassion part. (The reception this thread has gotten certainly goes to prove that point.)

Thirdly, let’s get back to this really, really stupid habit of redirection. So what if Muslims and some parts of Africa aren’t being decried? Does that in anyway give Catholics a right to dig the entire institution deeper? Strategy-wise, it’s ridiculously inefficient. “We’ve proven others are just as no-account as we are! Quick! Let’s make it worse and keep at justifying homophobic violence while they’re distracted. Excommunicating the gay bashers in our religion is just sooooo hard.”

I look forward to your future posts. You have a gift of being able to zero in on the underlying issues and to so in a concise inoffensive manner.

 

[estesbob]

Please point out where I said “the church did x”? I have never accused the church of unjustly discriminating against homosexuals.

I said “Christians discriminate”. That is a very different statement. It is not every Christian, but it is a significant number that it has had a profound impact on those who suffer as a result. Their behaviour is not in line with what the Church teaches, but many do hold it up as been in line with Church teaching.
K
If you are going to disagree with me, please at least disagree with what I actually say.

So what significant number of Christians unjustly discriminate against homosexuals’?(and please lets not get sidetracked to the Westboro Baptist Church) What form does this discrimination take? Is the reaction to homosexuals harsher than others who publicly sin?

I see lots of generalizations in thid thread but very few facts.

 

[frobert]

So what significant number of Christians unjustly discriminate against homosexuals’?(and please lets not get sidetracked to the Westboro Baptist Church) What form does this discrimination take? Is the reaction to homosexuals harsher than others who publicly sin?

I see lots of generalizations in thid thread but very few facts.

While it is impossible to provide numbers, the fact that the Vatican has stated in a major document that “unjust discrimination against gay people needs to be avoided,” suggests that the Vatican perceives there is a problem among Catholics with discrimination. I don’t think there are significant numbers of Christians that do discriminate and hope there are not.

Source:The Instrumentum Laboris

 

[pnewton]

While it is impossible to provide numbers, the fact that the Vatican has stated in a major document that “unjust discrimination against gay people needs to be avoided,” suggests that the Vatican perceives there is a problem among Catholics with discrimination. I don’t think there are significant numbers of Christians that do discriminate and hope there are not.

Source:The Instrumentum Laboris

In light of the title of this thread, I would not that the passage is social teaching not just for Catholics, but for all. The context of the quote is “Civil Recognition.” Also, the document does not hint, suggest or state any perception of a problem. This is one paragraph in a very long document.

 

[frobert]

In light of the title of this thread, I would not that the passage is social teaching not just for Catholics, but for all. The context of the quote is “Civil Recognition.” Also, the document does not hint, suggest or state any perception of a problem. This is one paragraph in a very long document.

Agreed it does not directly state it but it sure is suggestive. I think a reasonable person would question why the church would say that unjust discrimination should be avoided in a major document purely for social teaching if there was none to be avoided. You can wordsmith it anyway you want but you can not avoid the perception. Nor can you avoid that there are Christians that do discriminate unjustly. As to numbers I don’t believe there is anyway to know. I also said I do not think they are significant and certainly hope they are not. I do not like to think that there are significant numbers of fellow Christians who act unjustly which does not mean that some do not act unjustly.

I like to think we are on the same side on being against discrimination and it is just perceptions that separates us.

 

[pnewton]

Agreed it does not directly state it but it sure is suggestive. I think a reasonable person would question why the church would say that unjust discrimination should be avoided in a major document purely for social teaching if there was none to be avoided. You can wordsmith it anyway you want but you can not avoid the perception…

It is only your perception that it is suggestive. Catholic doctrines say what they say. It is not wordsmith-ing to say we do not read between the lines in a Catholic document. That is not how they work. Documents like this will tend to be comprehensive. When marriage and family is being discussed, it is only prudent to cover in the section of civil recognition some admonishment against civil recognition of “so-called “marriages” between homosexual persons.”

I do not doubt in any population the size of the Catholic Church there are people who discriminate unjustly.

 

[John_of_Woking]

We should be more concerned at the discrimination meted out to practising Catholics and other Christians who dare to follow Christ’s gospel

 

[estesbob]

Agreed it does not directly state it but it sure is suggestive. I think a reasonable person would question why the church would say that unjust discrimination should be avoided in a major document purely for social teaching if there was none to be avoided. You can wordsmith it anyway you want but you can not avoid the perception. Nor can you avoid that there are Christians that do discriminate unjustly. As to numbers I don’t believe there is anyway to know. I also said I do not think they are significant and certainly hope they are not. I do not like to think that there are significant numbers of fellow Christians who act unjustly which does not mean that some do not act unjustly.

I like to think we are on the same side on being against discrimination and it is just perceptions that separates us.

What is the unjust discrimination that a multitude of Christians are allegedly participating in?

 

[frobert]

What is the unjust discrimination that a multitude of Christians are allegedly participating in?

I think I was pretty clear in at least two other posts that I did not think or believe that there are not "multitudes of Christians…" and you know it. Is your question meant as a zinger or gotcha?

 

[frobert]

It is only your perception that it is suggestive. Catholic doctrines say what they say. It is not wordsmith-ing to say we do not read between the lines in a Catholic document. That is not how they work. Documents like this will tend to be comprehensive. When marriage and family is being discussed, it is only prudent to cover in the section of civil recognition some admonishment against civil recognition of “so-called “marriages” between homosexual persons.”

I do not doubt in any population the size of the Catholic Church there are people who discriminate unjustly.

I was talking about perceptions, so I can say we are in agreement.

 

[estesbob]

I think I was pretty clear in at least two other posts that I did not think or believe that there are not "multitudes of Christians…" and you know it. Is your question meant as a zinger or gotcha?

No I sm trying to understand what the OP and those who agreed with them were referring to.

 

[frobert]

No I sm trying to understand what the OP and those who agreed with them were referring to.

I sincerely apologize. My error was in assuming that the question was directed at me.

Personally as I have said a lot is perception but there are some blatant abuses.

Some denominations and churches did not distinguish between homosexual and the SS sexual act.

Many politicians, using religion as a cover, tried to appeal to the base instincts of their bases to condemn LGBT individuals.

Christian denominations have been late in calling unjust discrimination unjust and sinful

Many individuals suffered personally by the bigotry of some particular clergy and particular churches. Some of their stories are in this thread.

I think today that religions are coming to grips with how their attitude and pastoral care of something as intrinsic as sexual inclinations has a significant impact on self esteem.

For the posters who are saying “how about discrimination against Christians” I say I am against all unjust discrimination just as I am against all forms of bullying and we should all work together to eliminate them.