The Rapture, if it were to happen

[St.Eric]

Agreed. the rapture is a relatively new preaching. “be wary of those preaching a new doctrine” Cant say I beleive in it. Let the true church of Christ speak!

 

[St.Eric]

Fulton Sheen teaching rapture!!! Yeah right!!! NO WAY. The link to that must be as authentic as the link to the so-called Catholics preaching that the 3rd secret of Fatima is that Mary is really God. HERESY

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Church Militant:

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

According to a book entitled: “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon, his quote, “Every single church father until the year 400 believed that Christ would come back and set up his kingdom for 1000 years and there was not one dissenting voice for four centuries”.

As well St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis (close to Laodicea and Colossae in the valley of the Lycus in Phrygia) and Apostolic Father, called by St. Irenaeus “a hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp” was told by Apostle John (St. John) that the Apostles Matthew, Andrew, Peter, Philip, John, Thomas, and James all believed in the 1000 reign of Christ, the Millenium. Then the next generation of Christians believed it as well, St. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. It was not until, as you stated, Augustine that the amillennial position came and took hold.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

According to a book entitled: “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon, his quote, “Every single church father until the year 400 believed that Christ would come back and set up his kingdom for 1000 years and there was not one dissenting voice for four centuries”.

But that isn’t what the rapture is. The rapture teaching is that Jesus would come down and gather all the Christians (his second coming) so they would avoid a time a persecution before coming back (a third coming not mentioned in the bible AFAIK) and setting up his 1000 year reign.

I also notice that there is not a promise in the bible of Christians avoiding persecution. In fact, Jesus tells his followers they will be persecuted. Traditionally and historically the precedent is that persecution is nearly assured. Eleven of the 12 apostles were martyrd (traditionally). Historically, look at what Rome did to Christians.

The idea of the rapture seems to be based on the human desire to avoid hardship. It would be nice, but don’t count on it.

So that leads to the question, when the rapture doesn’t come and Christians start being persectued, will your theology change?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

SemperJase:

Jesus tells his followers they will be persecuted.

Yes, persecuted by the world. The worldly GODLESS - Satan ruled system.

God tells us:

Rev 3:10 “I will keep you FROM temptation, which shall come upon all the world…”

From is Greek word EK - from, God did not use Greek word “dia” meaning through…so God will keep us “out of”, evacuation, not preservation.

God tells us we will be prosectuted, but not by his judgments against the disobedient.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

Rev 3:10 “I will keep you FROM temptation, which shall come upon all the world…”

I must miss your point. If we are talking about rapture, this verse doesn’t seem to support your point. In fact, for God’s promise of keeping Christians from temptation to be relevant, they must still be in the world.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

St.Eric:

Fulton Sheen teaching rapture!!! Yeah right!!! NO WAY. The link to that must be as authentic as the link to the so-called Catholics preaching that the 3rd secret of Fatima is that Mary is really God. HERESY

Hello, sorry my mistake, I meant to say Bishop John Doughty - taught at Catholic Seminary. However Fulton Sheen did believe in Revelations. Which I think as per Pope Pius XII stated Ex Cathedra “Don’t ever explain the Bible symbolically or allegorically to the determent of the literal”. puts more “literary” to that books menaing.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

SemperJase:

I must miss your point. If we are talking about rapture, this verse doesn’t seem to support your point. In fact, for God’s promise of keeping Christians from temptation to be relevant, they must still be in the world.

Yes you miss my point. I will try and explain better. “From” Greek word “ek”- meaning away, out of, evacuation as opposed to using a word like “through” which is another Greek word “dia”…meaning preservation.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

SemperJase:

But that isn’t what the rapture is. The rapture teaching is that Jesus would come down and gather all the Christians (his second coming) so they would avoid a time a persecution before coming back (a third coming not mentioned in the bible AFAIK) and setting up his 1000 year reign.

I was responding to ChurchMilitant’s comment on amillenialism. Not the Rapture. Plus, the Rapture would not be the 2nd coming as the second coming is when Jesus sets foot on earth again. The Rapture is when he calls his saints into the sky, “come up hither”…in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

Yes you miss my point. I will try and explain better. “From” Greek word “ek”- meaning away, out of, evacuation as opposed to using a word like “through” which is another Greek word “dia”…meaning preservation.

Keeping us “away” from temptation is really a promise of taking all Christians out of the world. That’s pretty subtle, can’t say as I find that argument convincing. Seems a stretch.

 

[Wisdom]

None of the catholics listed taught the rapture!
Bishop Sheen you got to be kidding me.
There were some who did teach chialism but that is not the rapture and even different than the milliniarism that fundamentalist subscribe to today. The end time evennts of chialsim came to fruition in and around the church that is not the case with rapturist where the church basically dissapears and the end time events revlove around the secular state of Israel. Bishop Shenn beleived in the second coming of Christ like all orthodox catholics that oocurs at what the bible says is the last day. Also Justin Matry stated that his one of two opinions that could be held and he mentions other good christians held another view. Also Origen explicity teached amillinial thought 200 years before Augustine it is also an early church theory on the end of days. The Church has not said definitively how it will play out but it does reject the rapture.

 

[Ghosty]

steveandersen:

Isn’t that whole rapture nonsense based on a verse that says something about it being “like the Flood”.

But IIRC in the Flood it was the good folks who were left behind on earth and all the bad folks who were washed away.

SO if we wake up one morning and a whole bunch of non-Cs are gone……

Exactly!!!

We’d just assume the good ones were “left behind”, just like in the Flood, and in Jesus’ parable

Catholics believe in a “rapture”, it’s just the reverse of the Protestant version. After all, it is the holy who shall inherit the Earth. If by some stretch of the imagination I’m among those who are left behind to inherit the Earth, I’d be too busy basking in the Glory of God, not to mention trying to get over the shock of actually making it, that I wouldn’t even think about the Protestant version of the Rapture

 

[1ke]

malachi_a_serva:

would Catholics concede they were wrong? I mean, lets just say one day, just like in the “Left Behind” series, a bunch of us non-Cs and perhaps even some Cs just vanished.

Would Catholics rethink their theology or if the RCC was the True Church? Just hypothetical? And lets be honest.

The disappearance of people does not correspond to the “Rapture”. Who is to say where the disappeared non-Cs went? Hmmm… could be the hot place.

The devil is capable of deception. So, an event that appears “rapture like” could be an event created for deception, not by God.

Regarding the Church rethinking its theology. In short-- no.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Wisdom:

None of the catholics listed taught the rapture!
Bishop Sheen you got to be kidding me.

I corrected my error, I mistook him for another Bishop.

Wisdom:

There were some who did teach chialism but that is not the rapture and even different than the milliniarism that fundamentalist subscribe to today.

Now, I was taught these are indeed the same thing. Perhaps you could explain the difference.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Wisdom:

None of the catholics listed taught the rapture!
There were some who did teach chialism but that is not the rapture and even different than the milliniarism that fundamentalist subscribe to today.

The early church and premillennialism (chiliasm)

“Millenarianism became the general belief of the time and met with almost no other opposition than that given by the Gnostics.” - Gieseler, Church History, vol.1, p.166

“…the early Fathers lived in expectation of our Lord’s speedy return. . . . They distinguish between a first resurrection of the saints and a second or general resurrection. These they supposed would be separated by a period of a thousand years, during which Christ should reign over the saints in Jerusalem. . . . While the church was alternately persecuted and contemptuously tolerated by the Roman Empire, the belief in Christ’s speedy return and his millennial reign was widely entertained. . . . When the Church was recognized and patronized by the state, the new order of things seemed so desirable that the close of the dispensation ceased to be expected or desired.” - Crispen, History of Doctrine, p.231-232

“Immediately after the triumph of Constantine, Christianity having become dominant and prosperous, Christians began to lose their vivid expectation of our Lord’s speedy advent, and to look upon the temporal supremacy of Christianity as a fulfillment of the promised reign of Christ on earth.” - Smith, New Testament History, p.273

Above citations taken from Dr. I.M. Haldeman, The History of the Doctrine of Our Lord's Return, pp.14-20,24

Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea all advocated premillennial doctrine. [1] In addition, according to religious scholar Rev. and Dr. Francis Nigel Lee the following is true, "Justin’s ‘Occasional Chiliasm’ sui generis which was strongly anti-pretribulationistic was followed possibly by Pothinus in A.D. 175 and more probably (around 185) by Irenaeus. Around 220, there were some similar influences on Tertullian though only with very important and extremely optimistic (if not perhaps even postmillennial modifications and implications). On the other hand, ‘Christian Chiliastic’ ideas were indeed advocated in 240 by Commodian; in 250 by the Egyptian Bishop Nepos in his Refutation of Allegorists; in 260 by the almost unknown Coracion; and in 310 by Lactantius. [2]

Melito of Sardis is frequently listed as a second century proponent of premillennialism. (Taylor, Voice of the Church, P. 66; Peters, Theocratic Kingdom, 1:495; Walvoord, Millennial Kingdom, p. 120; et al.). The support usually given for the supposition is that Jerome [Comm. on Ezek. 36 ] and Gennadius [De Dogm. Eccl., Ch. 52] both affirm that he was a decided millenarian.”(Richard Cunningham Shimeall, Christ’s Second Coming: Is it Pre-Millennial or Post-Millennial? (New York: John F. Trow, 1865), p. 67. See also, Taylor, p. 66; Peters, 1:495; Jesse Forest Silver, The Lord’s Return (New York, et al.: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1914), p. 66; W. Chillingworth, The Works of W. Chillingworth, 12th ed. (London: B. Blake, 1836), p.714; et al).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

[St.Eric]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello, sorry my mistake, I meant to say Bishop John Doughty - taught at Catholic Seminary. However Fulton Sheen did believe in Revelations. Which I think as per Pope Pius XII stated Ex Cathedra “Don’t ever explain the Bible symbolically or allegorically to the determent of the literal”. puts more “literary” to that books menaing.

I am assuming you mean beleives in the Book of REvelations when you say he did beleive in Revelations. Well, all Catholics beleive in the book of revelations, that is why the church included it in the canon of the bible. Be;eif in Revelations is not the issue here, rather, the interpretation of it.

 

[JSmitty2005]

malachi_a_serva:

Which I think as per Pope Pius XII stated Ex Cathedra “Don’t ever explain the Bible symbolically or allegorically to the determent of the literal”. puts more “literary” to that books menaing.

What’s your citation for this? Not that I disagree with the statement, I actually think that it’s very useful. Where did you find it? I googled it and got nothin’. Not only that, but I’m a little suspect because that doesn’t sound like Pius XII’s manner of saying things, but I could be off on that.

 

[Church_Militant]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello Church Militant. Here are some of my findings:

Catholic Priests that believe and preach on the Rapture and some of their books:

keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=189

catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/11118.html

maryscall.com/thomas_petrisko.htm his book Call of the Ages

(You may note these are Catholic sites above)

marianland.com/proph008.html

marianland.com/proph007.html

catholicbook.com/catholicbook/tan1.htm

These books are:

Hope of the Wicked by Ted and Marie Flynn
Call of the Ages by Thomas Petrisko
The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. John O’Conner
The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. R. Gerald Culleton
The Raptured By Tumbler and Funk taught by Bishop Doughrty

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen believed in the Rapture and taught it.
Church Father Saint Victorninus preached Rapture in 270 AD.

More laterBUNK!
You said:

Catholic Priests that believe and preach on the Rapture and some of their books:

Not one of the links that you cited assert any such thing! I am well familiar with FR. O’Conner’s stuff and he preaches NO SUCH THING, and the rest of those links are to Catholic books on the end of the world and to any “rapture” foolishness.

Originally Posted by malachi_a_serva

I was responding to ChurchMilitant’s comment on amillenialism. Not the Rapture. Plus, the Rapture would not be the 2nd coming as the second coming is when Jesus sets foot on earth again. The Rapture is when he calls his saints into the sky, “come up hither”…in the twinkling of an eye.You straight off said that these Catholic authors support your beliefs but that is a GROSS misrepresentation of them. I made no comment on amillenialism, I pointed out that contrary to your propaganda, the teaching dates back to only 1830 to Darby & C.I. Scofield (That’s why even today if you find an n-C with a Scofield Reference Bible you can bet your socks you’ve found someone who believes this bit of modern error.)

As for your assertions concerning the Shepherd of Hermas I just searched it and it fails to support you.

I think you seek to deceive people with citations and assertions that look valid on their face and yet upon careful examination prove spurious at best and deceptive pretext at worst.

Your citation of Victorinus reads as follows:

FROM THE TWENTIETH CHAPTER

1. “Blessed and holy is he who has part in this resurrection: on them the second death shall have no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.” I do not think the reign of a thousand years is eternal; or if it is thus to be thought of, they cease to reign when the thousand years are finished. But I will put forward what my capacity enables me to judge. The tenfold number signifies the decalogue, and the hundredfold sets forth the crown of virginity: for he who shall have kept the undertaking of virginity completely, and shall have faithfully fulfilled the precepts of the decalogue, and shall have destroyed the untrained nature or impure thoughts within the retirement of the heart, that they may not rule over him, this is the true priest of Christ, and accomplishing the millenary number thoroughly, is thought to reign with Christ; and truly in his case the devil is bound. But he who is entangled in the vices and the dogmas of heretics, in his case the devil is loosed. But that it says that when the thousand years are finished he is loosed, so the number of the perfect saints being completed, in whom there is the glory of virginity in body and mind, by the approaching advent of the kingdom of the hateful one, many, seduced by that love of earthly things, shall be overthrown, and together with him shall enter the lake of fire.

BTW, this was condemned as heresy even then.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JSmitty2005:

What’s your citation for this? Not that I disagree with the statement, I actually think that it’s very useful. Where did you find it? I googled it and got nothin’. Not only that, but I’m a little suspect because that doesn’t sound like Pius XII’s manner of saying things, but I could be off on that.

This is a good question. I got it from a Jack Van Impe DVD. The quote is from 1950. He is reliable, so let me verify the source fi I can - outside of him.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Church Militant:

As for your assertions concerning the Shepherd of Hermas I just searched it and it fails to support you.

An excerpt from The Shepherd of Hermas reads,

“…this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. if then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.” (The Shepherd of Hermas, 1.4.2; Written 90-140 AD)