The Rapture, if it were to happen

[malachi_a_serva]

Church Militant:

I made no comment on amillenialism

Church Militant:

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

This is a good question. I got it from a Jack Van Impe DVD. The quote is from 1950. He is reliable, so let me verify the source fi I can - outside of him.

Your quote is from someone else who supposedly quoted Pius XII. Please excuse us for being skeptical. There is a long history of non-catholics either misquoting or outright making up quotes from catholics.

I will grant that catholics do look at the bible literally first. “This is my body” right? I’m guessing you don’t view that part of the bible literally though.

There is a problem with Revelation though. Are there literally four horsemen? What about the infamous Harlot? Is it really a prostitute? Or what about the Beast, some sort of animal? As a book of prophecy, it uses symbolism to illustrate its point. It seems you are making a fundamental mistake by viewing it first as literal.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hope of the Wicked by Ted and Marie Flynn
Call of the Ages by Thomas Petrisko
The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. R. Gerald Culleton
The Raptured By Tumbler and Funk taught by Bishop Doughrty

Those books above speak/preach the Rapoture, less The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. John O’Conner, which I stand corrected.

St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, “Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst.”

Condemned as heresy or not he is an ECF. St. Augustine you mentioned the church favors hisa position on then millenium, yet the church does not take his “calvinistic” views. So, it takes what it wants from the ECF, but discards what it wants from the ECF.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

SemperJase:

Your quote is from someone else who supposedly quoted Pius XII. Please excuse us for being skeptical. There is a long history of non-catholics either misquoting or outright making up quotes from catholics.

If I might add, you have not disproved the quote. I am confident I can confirm it. Just because my source is not Catholic does not mean it too be an inaccurate quote. I will, as I have in the past, admit to false quotes (I have on another thread searched to disprove a quote used by another) and or admit to any mistakes I make. I am no apologist, not even close, just someone for a love of GOD that has delved into the Bible the last 2 years (seriously) as a Catholic before that (38 yrs) no one from the Catholic Churchg ever encouraged me too before…so I am learning. But knowing the reliability (in my eyes) of JVI as I have confirmed many things he said, I am sure I will find it. Give me time. Yes, I perhaps should have validated it before I posted it, but I find it funny…the RCC is built on “tradition”, if I put your same many “traditions” to the test, quotes from Jesus or the Apostles could not be given, just “others”, so your reasoning and logic can play both ways.

Thank you for your patience as I explore this quote.

 

[Church_Militant]

malachi_a_serva:

Originally Posted by Church Militant
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists.

Better look again… That is not my own statement, but from the linked article. I KNEW I hadn’t said anything about that.

Yeah Ok… but the fact is that the teaching is condemned as heresy.

The fact is that the Catholic Church teaches that no one really knows…furthermore…Darby was an anti-Catholic who concocted this belief to try to scare Irish Catholics out of their faith when other persecutions did not work on them. This I got straight from my Irish Pastor, who would know.

You can make any case that you want…but the fact is that as far as the Word of God is concerned and the teachings of the Catholic Church…the “rapture” as it is taught today (if you can find enough n-Cs who hold a completely uniform belief on it. ) (and in this the Catholics who teach on the last days make no infallible claims) is nothing more the Darby’s revision of an ancient heresy.

1st Thessalonians 4:12-17 which is one of the prime passages used to teach this error actually says: "And we will not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again; even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. 17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words. "

That plainly speaks of the resurrection of the dead. Yet when does the New Testament say that that ressurection will occur? Let’s look to the words of Jesus Himself to know this:

John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; a**nd I will raise him up in the last day. **

John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 11:23 Jesus saith to her: Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith to him: I know that he shall rise again, in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:

John 12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.(Emphasis mine)

I could go on and on, but here is the notes from John Martignoni that do all this better than I can.

The Rapture and the Bible

I. Bible Verses:

1. 1 Thes 4:15-17
2. 1 Tim 3:15
3. 1 Thes 4:15-17
4. Rev 21:1-3
5. Rev 11:15-18
6. John 6:54, 39, 44
7. John 11:24
8. John 12:48
9. Rev 20
10. Mt 24:37-41
11. Lk 17:26-36
12. Mt 24: 3-13; 21-24
13. Mark 13:6-22
14. Luke 21:5-19
15. 2 Thes 2:1-12
16. Dan 8:17-25
17. Dan 7:25
18. Rev 13:1-10
19. 1 Cor 15:20-24
20. Heb 9:27-28
21. Rev 20:4-
22. Rev 12:7-8
23. 1 Cor 15:23-26
24. Rev 11:15-18
25. 1 John
26. Mt 13 & 25; John 5; Acts 17; Revelation; 1 Thes 5; Daniel 12; Isaiah 13

II. Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1. 674-679
2. 988, 997-1001
3. 1038-1050
   There is no “Rapture”…it’s the resurrection of the dead.
   Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

malachi_a_serva:

St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst

."
Does not speak of the rapture…there are other ways to be out of their midst…

Condemned as heresy or not he is an ECF. St. Augustine you mentioned the church favors hisa position on then millenium, yet the church does not take his “calvinistic” views. So, it takes what it wants from the ECF, but discards what it wants from the ECF.

Since the ECF are not infallible it is only right that the church embraces correct teaching and tosses anything that is not. Non-Catholics do the same thing with the writings of Calvin and the other 2 “pillars of the reformation”, all of whom referred to Mary as “the Mother of God”, yet most n-Cs today flip out over that.

What does the New Testament say is the pillar and ground of the truth? (And all the Catholics answered in a chorus… )
Pax vobiscum,

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Church Militant:

What does the New Testament say is the pillar and ground of the truth?

Thats easy, I would have thought you would know that…“the called out congregation”

 

[Church_Militant]

malachi_a_serva:

Thats easy, I would have thought you would know that…“the called out congregation”

Chapter and verse please of the exact NT quote?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Church Militant:

Chapter and verse please of the exact NT quote?

Αποτελέσματα αναζήτησης για Δεν βρέθηκαν λέξεις

si autem tardavero ut scias quomodo oporteat te in domo Dei conversari quae est ecclesia Dei vivi columna et firmamentum veritatis

1Ti 3:15

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
ean de bradunw ina eidhV pwV dei en oikw qeou anastrefesqai htiV estin ekklhsia qeou zwntoV stuloV kai edraiwma thV alhqeiaV

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
ean de bradunw ina eidhV pwV dei en oikw qeou anastrefesqai htiV estin ekklhsia qeou zwntoV stuloV kai edraiwma thV alhqeiaV

Byzantine Majority
ean de bradunw ina eidhV pwV dei en oikw qeou anastrefesqai htiV estin ekklhsia qeou zwntoV stuloV kai edraiwma thV alhqeiaV

Alexandrian
ean de bradunw ina eidhV pwV dei en oikw qeou anastrefesqai htiV estin ekklhsia qeou zwntoV stuloV kai edraiwma thV alhqeiaV

Hort and Westcott
ean de bradunw ina eidhV pwV dei en oikw qeou anastrefesqai htiV estin ekklhsia qeou zwntoV stuloV kai edraiwma thV alhqeiaV

 

[aurora77]

Αποτελέσματα αναζήτησης για Δεν βρέθηκαν λέξεις

1Ti 3:15, just incase you can’t read Greek.

I think you have that wrong. The NAB has that verse as "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " What version do you use that says the called out congegation?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

aurora77:

What version do you use that says the called out congegation?

I was just joking. Referring to the various arguments that speak to ecclesia meaning, “called out ones”, “assembly” or “congregation”. Of which I can accept, just do not hold it to be worth arguing about.

Anyway, I was only kidding above.

 

[aurora77]

malachi_a_serva:

I was just joking. Referring to the various arguments that speak to ecclesia meaning, “called out ones”, “assembly” or “congregation”. Of which I can accept, just do not hold it to be worth arguing about.

Anyway, I was only kidding above.

Whoops! I thought the “called out assembly” was another Rapture thing.

Honest question for you, how do you know which Rapture theory to go by? I picked up Tim Lahaye’s book on the Rapture from the library (I don’t believe in it, but having done some reading lately from the Catholic viewpoint, I just couldn’t resist his book)–it sounds like there are many different viewpoints. I bet all of their adherents have their Bible verses to back up what they’re saying, so which one would be correct?

 

[johnpaullover]

malachi_a_serva:

would Catholics concede they were wrong? I mean, lets just say one day, just like in the “Left Behind” series, a bunch of us non-Cs and perhaps even some Cs just vanished.

Would Catholics rethink their theology or if the RCC was the True Church? Just hypothetical? And lets be honest.

There is one insy winsy problem. It isn’t going to happen. Next?

 

[kpuia]

SemperJase:

But that isn’t what the rapture is. The rapture teaching is that Jesus would come down and gather all the Christians (his second coming) so they would avoid a time a persecution before coming back (a third coming not mentioned in the bible AFAIK) and setting up his 1000 year reign.

I also notice that there is not a promise in the bible of Christians avoiding persecution. In fact, Jesus tells his followers they will be persecuted. Traditionally and historically the precedent is that persecution is nearly assured. Eleven of the 12 apostles were martyrd (traditionally). Historically, look at what Rome did to Christians.

The idea of the rapture seems to be based on the human desire to avoid hardship. It would be nice, but don’t count on it.

So that leads to the question, when the rapture doesn’t come and Christians start being persectued, will your theology change?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

aurora77:

Whoops! I thought the “called out assembly” was another Rapture thing.

Honest question for you, how do you know which Rapture theory to go by? I picked up Tim Lahaye’s book on the Rapture from the library (I don’t believe in it, but having done some reading lately from the Catholic viewpoint, I just couldn’t resist his book)–it sounds like there are many different viewpoints. I bet all of their adherents have their Bible verses to back up what they’re saying, so which one would be correct?

From most of the fundamentalists I associate with do not believe in arguing about which “one” is correct. Pre MId or Post. I myself have been exposed to the pre and have seen the various scriptures etc. explaining why it could be the only acceptable one. I, like everything I have investigated, see many things came be proven this way or that way. Growing up as a Catholic I always figured I would die and go to Heaven (never really was taught much about purgatory)…wasn’t to educated in or taught mush on the “last day” judgement thing either.

So it has been awhile myself, what is the exact Catholic stance. Will Jesus reign on earth? Will the “saints” rule on earth with him…or live/be on earth. Will Heaven and earth be one? Will everyone “saved” just be in Heaven? or will there be an “earthly” contingent to that as well?

I would like clarification if I could.

So I guess what else I mean is that will people be with Christ that have not physically died? Or from a Catholic standpoint, everyone has to die physically in order to go to Heaven (if that is where they are going). Plus, will the earth be destroyed or go on and on…with people living on it?

Thanks everyone, I really hope no one takes offense to me, my questions, or my responmses. I love everyone, all of you. I love God the Father, I love God the Son and I love God the Holy Spirit. And I love you

 

[JSmitty2005]

kpuia:

SemperJase:

The rapture teaching is that Jesus would come down and gather all the Christians (his second coming) so they would avoid a time a persecution before coming back (a third coming not mentioned in the bible AFAIK) and setting up his 1000 year reign.

In 1 Cor 15:51-52, it says:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

This is describing the resurrection of the dead at the LAST TRUMPET which heralds the second coming of Christ, so this seven years between the rapture and the second coming or between the second and third coming or however it goes is nonsense.

 

[Redbandito]

malachi_a_serva:

Not so according to my findings:

150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas. Then in 270 AD Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it. 350 AD Ephraim the Syrian
In 400 AD, Jerome in the Latin vulgate as you have already indicated used the word Rapiamore which means Rapture, or Caught Up to describe the Rapture, some 1600 Years ago! In 1304 AD, Reverend Dolcino 1955 AD Hugh Latimer, burned at the stake for his faith said: “It may come in my days, old as I am, or in my children’s days, the saints shall be taken up to meet Christ in the air and so shall come down with him again.” In **1627 AD **Joseph Medde a iteralist used the word “rapture.” In 1627AD, Joseph Mede 1627 AD Increase Mather 1687AD, Peter Jurieu 1700 AD John Asgill 1738AD, Philip Doddridge **1742/44 AD **Morgan Edwards 1748AD John Gill 1763AD, James McKnight 1792AD, Thomas Scott **then in 1830AD John Darby also taught and preached it. **

Now even if it were just taught 200 yrs ago, not hard to understand as people needed time to READ and GET TO KNOW THEIR BIBLE since for centeries they were read it from the pulpate butnit able to read it on their own. So it would make sence that people needed time to familiarize themselves to scripture. However, as above, Rapture gors way back.

That’s garbage. Some of these people apparently believed in a literal 1,000 year rain, but no where is the teaching of the Rapture mentioned in their early theology. Nice try though. Don’t get your doctrines confused.

 

[Redbandito]

malachi_a_serva:

Hope of the Wicked by Ted and Marie Flynn
Call of the Ages by Thomas Petrisko
The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. R. Gerald Culleton
The Raptured By Tumbler and Funk taught by Bishop Doughrty

Those books above speak/preach the Rapoture, less The Reign of the AntiChrist by Fr. John O’Conner, which I stand corrected.

St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, “Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst.”

Condemned as heresy or not he is an ECF. St. Augustine you mentioned the church favors hisa position on then millenium, yet the church does not take his “calvinistic” views. So, it takes what it wants from the ECF, but discards what it wants from the ECF.

Augustine’s views are not “calvinistic”. Augustine clearly accepts free will, which Calvin rejected. Furthermore, Calvin also was amillenialist.

 

[Redbandito]

malachi_a_serva:

An excerpt from The Shepherd of Hermas reads,

“…this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. if then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.” (The Shepherd of Hermas, 1.4.2; Written 90-140 AD)

That’s the best you have? Come on now. That could mean one of a million different things. You are reading your theology back onto the text.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Redbandito:

That’s the best you have? Come on now. That could mean one of a million different things. You are reading your theology back onto the text.

I gues it could just be one of those million.

Next, what if this was taught by “tradition”? Would you buy it then? No biblical proof whatsoever,…just passed along, mouth to mouth through the ages. ??