The Rapture, if it were to happen

[kpuia]

To add to this, in my understanding of the rapture “theory” is that Christ will come three times. No where in scripture does it support 3 comings, only two advents. Christ already came, died and was resurrected and promised again to come judge the living and the dead.

In the rapture theory, He comes, died and was resurrected, comes again to “rapture” the believers to heaven and then will come again for the final judgement.

It only takes one mistruth to lead one down the path of distruction opening the door to Satan’s liar.

I pray for all my brothers and sisters in Christ that they may one day not be mislead by these doctrines that promise believers to be spared suffering. As my understanding of the rapture if God promises us a life in him it will end in being spared suffering. How would you explain this to all past and present Christian martyrs. why aren’t they spared? As Christians we are to mimick the life of Christ, not be spared it. Suffering was a great part of Christ’s life and so it is for us.

kpuia

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m wondering if we don’t need to define our terms. As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn’t deny the “Rapture,” ie, that “the dead in Christ will rise first, and then they who are alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air.” (paraphrased). That’s what Saint Paul taught. What the Catholic Church teaches is that we don’t have a clue as to when that will happen (so we tend not to bother our heads with “prophecy” seminars, etc.) and that nothing in what has transpired in the history of God’s interaction with humanity leads us to believe that His chosen (the Church) will be spared any kind of tribulation, “Great” or otherwise. As has been pointed out to the OP, this “millenialism”, pre/post, etc., is largely a phenomenon of 19th Century American Protestant Evangelical groups. If the same question in the OP had been asked of the Apostles or the Early Fathers, they would have looked at you with a bewildered expression on their faces.

We believe that the Second Person of the Trinity shall come to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom shall have no end.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

If I might add, you have not disproved the quote. I am confident I can confirm it.

I can’t prove a negative. If Pius XII didn’t say something, there isn’t proof he didn’t say it. I’ll look for your confirmation though.

But knowing the reliability (in my eyes) of JVI as I have confirmed many things he said, I am sure I will find it.

Speaking of reliability, I checked out his web site. I noticed it claims he is “the world’s foremost biblical prophecy authority”. How do we know this is true? Apparently because his web site says it is.

I admit my biases here. My experience with End Times preachers is that they are at first interesting and attractive for their alarmist “the world will end anyday” message. But in the end, they are purely speculative and ultimately spritually unfulfilling. Spiritual porn.

That’s my bias. So with me, you’ll have to prove that what he says is based on scholarly study and not merely alarmism and speculation.

the RCC is built on “tradition”, if I put your same many “traditions” to the test, quotes from Jesus or the Apostles could not be given, just “others”, so your reasoning and logic can play both ways.

The logic doesn’t go both ways. Catholic belief does not claim that the Bible is the complete word of God. Therefore we aren’t confined to the same measure of sola scriptura that you have adopted.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JKirkLVNV:

If the same question in the OP had been asked of the Apostles or the Early Fathers, they would have looked at you with a bewildered expression on their faces.

We believe that the Second Person of the Trinity shall come to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom shall have no end.

Hello, I know the OP is me, buit what does that stand for?

Now, does Jesus judge the living and the dead on earth, in heaven? if on earth will the heavenly saints come with him, are they already judged?

 

[Elzee]

JKirkLVNV:

I’m wondering if we don’t need to define our terms. As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn’t deny the “Rapture,” ie, that “the dead in Christ will rise first, and then they who are alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air.” (paraphrased). That’s what Saint Paul taught. What the Catholic Church teaches is that we don’t have a clue as to when that will happen (so we tend not to bother our heads with “prophecy” seminars, etc.) and that nothing in what has transpired in the history of God’s interaction with humanity leads us to believe that His chosen (the Church) will be spared any kind of tribulation, “Great” or otherwise. As has been pointed out to the OP, this “millenialism”, pre/post, etc., is largely a phenomenon of 19th Century American Protestant Evangelical groups. If the same question in the OP had been asked of the Apostles or the Early Fathers, they would have looked at you with a bewildered expression on their faces.

We believe that the Second Person of the Trinity shall come to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom shall have no end.

Correct based on my understanding - the only ‘rapture’ the Church believes in is at the end of time, when Jesus comes **His second - and final time. ** Christians have never been spared tribulation. It amazes me that so many fundamentalists think that for some reason, we will be now. It’s during those times Christians are needed the most - to be an example to non-believers and hopefully help more souls come to Christ before it is too late.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

SemperJase:

I can’t prove a negative. If Pius XII didn’t say something, there isn’t proof he didn’t say it. I’ll look for your confirmation though.

After I wrote that, I realized I shouldn’t…too late to edit.

SemperJase:

The logic doesn’t go both ways. Catholic belief does not claim that the Bible is the complete word of God. Therefore we aren’t confined to the same measure of sola scriptura that you have adopted.

Yes, a sceptic would say, “how convenient”…uhmmm

I don’t necessarily adopt to sola scriptura (perhaps since I was raised Catholic). However, I do see in scripture where it tells me everything I need to know to salvation is in the scriptures…plus that other verse rebuke.etc…etc. I do realize the Catholic defense. Anyway, that is another thread/topic.

P.s. If I do not respond any more. I was Raptured. There will be your proof.

 

[Veritas41]

malachi_a_serva:

Now even if it were just taught 200 yrs ago, not hard to understand as people needed time to READ and GET TO KNOW THEIR BIBLE since for centeries they were read it from the pulpate butnit able to read it on their own. So it would make sence that people needed time to familiarize themselves to scripture. However, as above, Rapture gors way back.

I wonder why none of the Protestant Reformers taught the Rapture? Would you accuse them of not reading their Bibles on their own or not being aware of others in the past who had taught it? I belonged to the Presbtyerian Church in America, and I was never taught anything about the Rapture. It was only Baptists and charismatics I knew of who taught this.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Elzee:

Correct based on my understanding - the only ‘rapture’ the Church believes in is at the end of time, when Jesus comes **His second - and final time. ** Christians have never been spared tribulation. It amazes me that so many fundamentalists think that for some reason, we will be now. It’s during those times Christians are needed the most - to be an example to non-believers and hopefully help more souls come to Christ before it is too late.

Yes but this tribulation is different. It will have God punishing people. That is what makes it different. Would he punish his children? Or just the disobediant children of the devil…that have refused to repent? Like in the Old Testament with the Pharoh, he protected his children, the curses were on others.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Veritas41:

I wonder why none of the Protestant Reformers taught the Rapture? Would you accuse them of not reading their Bibles on their own or not being aware of others in the past who had taught it? I belonged to the Presbtyerian Church in America, and I was never taught anything about the Rapture. It was only Baptists and charismatics I knew of who taught this.

Well a couple of things. One, the founder of the Presbyterian Church (Calvin I believe), kept the teaching that he was taught…obviously. One would have to spend allot of time in the scriptures to decifer the Rapture. Not just after they translated the Bible into their own tongue and then POOF…the Rapture. The Church had centeries to delve into it (16 or so) to come up with what they believe…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello, I know the OP is me, buit what does that stand for?

Now, does Jesus judge the living and the dead on earth, in heaven? if on earth will the heavenly saints come with him, are they already judged?

Original poster.

I don’t know. And here’s a question for you: does it matter? And regardless of my opinion, pre/post or al, is that going to change one whit, one iota, His plan for what He’s going to do and how He’s going to do it? I was weary of this stuff before I ever turned Catholic.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

malachi_a_serva:

Yes but this tribulation is different. It will have God punishing people. That is what makes it different. Would he punish his children? Or just the disobediant children of the devil…that have refused to repent? Like in the Old Testament with the Pharoh, he protected his children, the curses were on others.

Doesn’t Holy Writ say," Whom He loveth, He chastiseth?"

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JKirkLVNV:

Original poster.

I don’t know. And here’s a question for you: does it matter? And regardless of my opinion, pre/post or al, is that going to change one whit, one iota, His plan for what He’s going to do and how He’s going to do it? I was weary of this stuff before I ever turned Catholic.

Hello, and good point. No it doesn’t matter. Too me anyway. I mean, if I die tomorrow or get raptured next year or what-ever…as long as I am going the Lord’s will - that is good by me. I do believe though the Bible instructs us to “prepare” and “watch”. But, no it doesn’t matter too me. So the reason of the post is just info seeking/opinion seeking etc. The only reason Catholics do not care is because their is no position by the church. If there was they would care. Why no position? Anyway, that is a rhetorical question cause I am not really concerned with why they do not. I do believe thought that has a direct bearing as I mentioned to why Catholics do not.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JKirkLVNV:

Doesn’t Holy Writ say," Whom He loveth, He chastiseth?"

Yes, in the context of doing wrong or committing sin. So would it be fair (not that I am in any position to question my Holy God)? I am preparing for the worst myself. If is harder and harder to live a chrsitian life (what I deem Christian anyway).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello, and good point. No it doesn’t matter. Too me anyway. I mean, if I die tomorrow or get raptured next year or what-ever…as long as I am going the Lord’s will - that is good by me. I do believe though the Bible instructs us to “prepare” and “watch”. But, no it doesn’t matter too me. So the reason of the post is just info seeking/opinion seeking etc. The only reason Catholics do not care is because their is no position by the church. If there was they would care. Why no position? Anyway, that is a rhetorical question cause I am not really concerned with why they do not. I do believe thought that has a direct bearing as I mentioned to why Catholics do not.

We do have a position: “No man knoweth the hour.” We may go on for a few paragraphs, but that’s what it boils down to. Jesus said,“No man knoweth the hour.” Beyond that, we’re clueless.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

malachi_a_serva:

Yes, in the context of doing wrong or committing sin. So would it be fair (not that I am in any position to question my Holy God)? I am preparing for the worst myself. If is harder and harder to live a chrsitian life (what I deem Christian anyway).

Whatever God does will be fair and just. God is God. We are His creatures, called to be His sons and daughters.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JKirkLVNV:

Whatever God does will be fair and just. God is God. We are His creatures, called to be His sons and daughters.

Yes I agree.

unity in certain things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things

 

[JSmitty2005]

malachi_a_serva:

Yes I agree.

unity in certain things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things

This is often misattributed to St. Augustine of Hippo, but seems to have been first used in the 17th century by a German Lutheran theologian, Rupertus Meldenius, in the form “in necesariis unita, in non-necessariis liberta, in utrisque charita”, meaning “in certain things, unity; in uncertain things, liberty; in both things, charity.”

 

[Doreen]

Lazerlike42:

Would you?

I would not, based on the fact that even satan can play tricks on us…and I would see it as a trick of the serpent.

And beware, because that is exactly how the anti-Christ is described in Revelation, in Matthew 24 and in 2 Thessalonians…he will display all kinds of signs and wonders…but do not be fooled.

Matt. 24:24 “For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even to the elect.”

On the other hand, satan cannot pluck us out of this world the way the Lord describes we’ll one day “meet Him in the air”.

And while we’re looking at Matt. 24 and someone asked about Scripture regarding “Rapture”…24:31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (This is Christ calling up those who are “asleep” in Him)…

Verse 40: “Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch, therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.”

I believe some (even many) Catholics will be caught up in the air, too! That is all who truly worship, adore, love, obey and trust the Lord

Those who do not put ANYTHING before Christ for their salvation shall be “members of the household of God.” (Eph. 2:19)

Also…in Ephesians 2:20-22…Paul says, to the “members of the household of God, who are fellow citizens with the saints…”

…“having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, **Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone ** (huh? Not Peter, the “Rock”… whazzup wid dat?) … in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.”

But, I stray from the point…just commenting on this idea that Peter’s church is the one that shall prevail…I believe it is Christ’s church that shall prevail…for no man is worthy of my worship and complete trust except Christ Himself. Nope not even St. Peter.



D.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JSmitty2005:

This is often misattributed to St. Augustine of Hippo, but seems to have been first used in the 17th century by a German Lutheran theologian, Rupertus Meldenius, in the form “in necesariis unita, in non-necessariis liberta, in utrisque charita”, meaning “in certain things, unity; in uncertain things, liberty; in both things, charity.”

I thought Blessed John XXIII said it! He didn’t?

 

[JSmitty2005]

JKirkLVNV:

I thought Blessed John XXIII said it! He didn’t?

Nope, although it is a favorite of liberal modernist progressivists. They try to pass it off as being something from Augustine, but it’s bunk.