The Rapture?

[bibleapologist]

The Catholic,

When used to listen to this certain Christian radio station they put it like this: "Satan was bound for a thousand years starting at Calvary (that thousand years repersents the complete ammount of time from calvary to the tribulation) then as we approach the end times Satan is loosed and and has gone out to decieve the nations and world once again, this is the tribulation and is why there are so many false teachings today.

Mr. Catholic… I respect you for admitting that your not sure about the eschatology… even the Catholic Church is reluctant to make absolute claims about the interpretation of the book of Revelation. I also cannot claim to understand Revelation completely but the issue of Amillennialism, and Post-Millennialism does concern me a great deal.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I believe it is imperitive that we have a clear understanding of: 1. The Church age dispensation 2. The tribulation 3. The second coming 4. The Millennial Reign.

If we get these end time events out of order we stand the chance of being in a postition of exalting the Antichrist as Christ… which BTW is exactly what Satan wants us to do. Let me explain…

If I am right in my interpretation, and at the end of the Church age dispensation there arises one called the Antichrist who sits in the temple showing himself he is God (2 Thess. 2:4), and at after that the tribulation period, then the second coming, and finally the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ.

If that were the correct interpretation of end time events, then a person who believed in Post-Millennialism, or A-Millennialism who invariably believed that the next event to take place was the return of Christ to set up His kingdom… would accept the antichrist as the real Christ sitting in the temple. They would be deceived into exalting the antichrist as Christ himself.

This would unquestionably be a dangerous situation to be in.

I have published a book explaining this deception in great detail. In the book I explain how Satan has been using certain doctrines to turn the affection of many people from Christ to the Antichrist as Satan vicariously sets himself upon the “sides of the north” to be worshipped by God’s people.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Pryority7]

The Catholic,

If that were the correct interpretation of end time events, then a person who believed in Post-Millennialism, or A-Millennialism who invariably believed that the next event to take place was the return of Christ to set up His kingdom… would accept the antichrist as the real Christ sitting in the temple. They would be deceived into exalting the antichrist as Christ himself.

This would unquestionably be a dangerous situation to be in.

Yet on the same note, if the Premillinialists expect the rapture to occur, and the amillenial view is correct (note how I state it that way), when the Antichrist does arrive the those who believe in the Rapture will not recognize him for who he is because they haven’t been raptured yet…it couldn’t possibly be him! So it’s kind of a double edge sword is it? How can we resolve this?
(I kind of know already, I just want your response to this)
Blessings,
P7

 

[Pryority7]

Oh, by the way…like the Book of Acts states, Jesus will return the EXACT way he left…in the clouds and in glory. I doubt we Catholics would accept anyone as Christ who does not arrive like that…you know…judge the world, sheep and goat judgement…all that stuff…
Unless you actually believe that the Antichrist is going to arrive the same way…somehow I doubt it…
P7

 

[deb1]

Yet on the same note, if the Premillinialists expect the rapture to occur, and the amillenial view is correct (note how I state it that way), when the Antichrist does arrive the those who believe in the Rapture will not recognize him for who he is because they haven’t been raptured yet…it couldn’t possibly be him! So it’s kind of a double edge sword is it? How can we resolve this?
(I kind of know already, I just want your response to this)
Blessings,
P7

Some sects also believe that they will be sparred pain and suffering. The mindset of *some *is that God will rapture them before any real persecution begins. So, I can’t help but wonder if these people will loose their faith when they are exposed to any persecution.

 

[covakid]

This maybe helpful, it’s some archive REAL Audio from EWTN shows with various host and guests on the topic of the Rapture.

John Martignoni - Top of the Week The Rapture

Johnnette Benkovic w/ Paul Thigpen - The Abundant Life

Colin Donovan and Desmond Birch - The Last Things:

Marcus Grodi with Paul Thigpen - The Rapture Trap

Marcus Grodi with Fr. Patrick Rohen - Rapture Theology

Doug Keck w/ David Currie - Rapture: the End-Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind

Fr. Alfred McBride Millennium: End or Beginning? - Get Ready for the Rapture

excerptsofinri.com/rapture-ewtn.html

 

[NotWorthy]

I think John Martignoni says it best:

"In case of Rapture, I hope to be left behind!!!"

 

[Denise_Shae]

John Martignoni puts out a great FREE CD/cassette that Scripturally refutes Protestant teachings/beliefs on the Rapture. It’s called: “The Rapture & The Bible”. I loved it.

Enjoy, everyone!

 

[bibleapologist]

Priority7,

Yet on the same note, if the Premillinialists expect the rapture to occur, and the amillenial view is correct (note how I state it that way), when the Antichrist does arrive the those who believe in the Rapture will not recognize him for who he is because they haven’t been raptured yet…it couldn’t possibly be him! So it’s kind of a double edge sword is it? How can we resolve this?
(I kind of know already, I just want your response to this)
Blessings,

First of all, you are assuming that all PreMillennialists are also Pre-trib, which isn’t the case. But, nevertheless, the best way to resolve the issue is to make sure you are truly a child of God… to make sure you are saved. If you are saved you will know Jesus’ voice, and (unless you disregard His voice) you won’t be fooled by an imposter.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

In the last days there is going to be a “strong delusion to believe a lie”, there will be alot of people who arrogantly denied that they could be deceived… but they will.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[LittleDeb]

I second, (or third, or fourth) the vote for John Martignoni’s talk on the rapture. My Evangelical friend heard that one and really started to listen to the Truth taught by the Catholic Church. biblechristiansociety.com/account/download?return=%2Fdownload%2Fmp3%2Frapture_and_the_bible.mp3 My link is too long because I couldn’t understand RyanL’s instructions.

Anyone who has heard Martignoni’s talk will understand my friend’s comment while listening to it. “All right I get it! ‘On the LAST DAY!’”

 

[Mr_Jullien]

I second, (or third, or fourth) the vote for John Martignoni’s talk on the rapture. My Evangelical friend heard that one and really started to listen to the Truth taught by the Catholic Church. biblechristiansociety.com/account/download?return=%2Fdownload%2Fmp3%2Frapture_and_the_bible.mp3 My link is too long because I couldn’t understand RyanL’s instructions.

Anyone who has heard Martignoni’s talk will understand my friend’s comment while listening to it. “All right I get it! ‘On the LAST DAY!’”

Here, here! It got my Non-Denom friend seriously re-thinking about his belief in the Rapture. He’s a former Catholic. The more info/tapes I send him from Martignoni’s “Bible Christian Society”, the more he questions his non-Catholic beliefs.

I have a feeling he’s on his way back HOME, to the One True Catholic Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago.

** PAX**,

Jullien

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Brothers and Sister:

I have to Admit a different POV - Probably comes from being dragged in by an Orthodox Rabbi…

Orthodox Jews believe the End of Days will begin during the MONTH WITH NO HOLY DAYS and that the Moschiach will come 7 years after the period of GREAT TRIBULATION will begin during that same month. After the Moschiach comes, the only sacrifice necessary will be that of THANKSGIVING AND PRAISE.

This summarizes and oversimplifies the teaching of several Sages, but some conclusions can easily be drawn by people knowledgeable in the climate of the ME, the habits of Middle Eastern Shepherds and some of the predictions of the Early Church Fathers…

Most people know that the dating of Christmas is based on a system of dating which did not take into account whether or not shepherds would have been tending there sheep out in the snow on a cold winter’s night. Meanwhile, sometime early in the Month of Cheshvan 3757 (Late Oct - Early Nov. 4 B.C.), Our Lord Jesus is born in Bethlehem as foretold by the Prophets.

During the Jewish Rebellion against the Romans, the second temple was so thoroughly destroyed that “Not one stone was left on top of another” as professied by our Lord. Legend says that, right before the Temple fell, the door’s opened and the Presences left, and the priest handed his keys (which look like he “Keys of St. Peter”) and asked the Presence if he was worthy of keeping the Keys or if G-d needed his keys back. The Presence took the back. Anyone who wants to know what these keys looked like need only look at the Papal Seal.

Since the Fall of Jerusalem, the only Sacrifice that has been carried out is the one we call the Eucharist, “the Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving”.

The ECF have stated that there would be a Great Apostasy before the end. this is echoed by St. Nilos of Athos:

stmichaelacademy.org/nilos.html

The ECF also stated a lot of Jews would convert to our Lord during the last days… Just imagine the wave of conversions that would happen if Israeli archeologists confirmed the details of the Gospels relating to Christ birth that can potentially be confirmed and also confirmed the date. It could also be that the Jews will notice their High Priest’s keys on the Papal Seal.

Either way, The Jews will convert, and it will be just in a nick of time.

Another reason the Date is significant…On Oct., 30, 2003 (4 Cheshvan 5764), Yossi Beilin and several representives of the Israeli Peace Movement signed a Peace Agreement known as the Geneva Accords with the Leaders of Several Arab and Palestinian Groups. Many Ultra Orthodox believe that, because the agreement split Jerusalem and gave Arabs sovereignty over part of Israel’s capitol without necessity, this set off the Period of the Great Tribulation during which the nations array themselves against Israel.

Anyone who’s heard the statements and seen the nuclear bomb project of Iran, heard the anti-semitic rethric around the world and watched the UN pass resolutions aganst Israel while ignoring Real Genocide and suffering around the world has got to wonder if that hasn’t been happening.

FYI, Pope John Paul II took the last burial spot at St. Peter’s, and St. Malachi’s original list ends with Pope Benedict XVI…

We know that there is a Great Apostasy, and that more Christians have died for the faith in the last 20 years than in the preceding 20 centuries…

The only things we are waiting for is the “Son of Perdition” (Ahmadinajad?) and the Conversion of the Jews)

When we see these things, know the end is near. If the Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis are right, we had 4 more years and 1 more month.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[apophasis]

bibleapologist:

I believe it is imperitive that we have a clear understanding of: 1. The Church age dispensation 2. The tribulation 3. The second coming 4. The Millennial Reign.

ABSOLUTELY! And added to this the four un-conditional covenants God made with national Israel. For at least the first three to four centuries the church was predominately Premillennial in its belief. That is, it believed that Christ would return to set up an earthly kingdom, literally fulfilling the O.T. prophecies and the words of the Annunciation given to MaryLuke 1:30-33 "The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."The kingdom of his “father David” is an earthly kingdom. The kingdom to which He was born to rule, being the “Son of David.” The promises that Mary would conceive, give birth to a Son and name Him Jesus were certainly fulfilled with His incarnation; but the promise that He would be given the “throne of His father David” and “reign over the house of Jacob” was not.

In fact, Jesus Himself does not consider the sharing of His Father’s throne now in Heaven the fulfillment of the promise of being given the throne of His father David on earth:Rev 3:21 "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."Clearly there remains still the expectation of Christ to return to this earth and reign on the throne of David, ruling over Israel and the nations from Jerusalem (the historic, governmental seat of David’s kingdom, see Zech. 14, esp. 9, 16).

Jesus even spoke with anticipation of this glorious future time on earth prior to His death, resurrection and subsequent ascension:Matt 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Matt 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."This “glorious throne” is the “throne of His father David,” and it will reside in the city of Jerusalem literally fulfilling numerous O.T. prophecies. When speaking of this Church age James referred to the prophet Amos saying:Acts 15:16 "AFTER THESE THINGS (i.e., this Church age, see Rev. 1:19; 4:1) I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it…"The “tabernacle of David” is restored when Jesus, David’s Son, returns to sit upon “His glorious throne.” And the forming of national Israel in 1948 is just the beginning of this expectation.

Amillennialism (the spiritualizing of the Davidic kingdom), which Catholics and most Protestants adhere to, is a departure from Biblical (Divine) revelation: the words and expectation of Christ Himself, the O.T. prophets and writers of the N.T. Until one first realizes and accepts this truth, he can never be expected to understand the Biblical revelation of the Rapture. And debating with RCs on this subject will alway be futile since they will not, nor cannot, accept anything their magesterium has not. Which can be compared to the Jew in Christ’s day saying, “although all You say and do points to you as Messiah, we will not embrace you unless our religious leaders do.”

 

[Fidelis]

And debating with RCs on this subject will alway be futile since they will not, nor cannot, accept anything their magesterium has not. Which can be compared to the Jew in Christ’s day saying, “although all You say and do points to you as Messiah, we will not embrace you unless our religious leaders do.”

Oh good! Since we stupid and stubborn Catholics are **incapable **or **unwilling **to think for ourselves, then it is pointless for you to hang around and discuss anything with us.

Goodbye, and don’t let the slamming door hit you you-know-where when you go.

 

[Church_Militant]

“The Rapture” is such unBiblical hooey…

I used to believe that stuff but I got to looking at the passages used to teach it and then as I read the New Testament, I began to find verses that create a context that show that it’s just another interpretted doctrine of man.
Example: John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Now all these proponents of this error try to tell us that this happens before the resurrection occurs, but just this verse by itself punches a huge whole in that because Our Lord plainly says “and I will raise him up in the last day.”

This whole error was never believed by the ECF, and in fact there are only about three guys prior to John Nelson Darby in the 1820’s (a Church of Ireland pastor), and the earliest of them was considered a heretic by the early church. The fact is that this was never even heard of in Christian history until then and the only reason that it ever took off here in the USA is that C.I Scofield (LINK) included it is the notes of his “reference Bible”.

My sainted Irish pastor told me that Darby concocted this teaching to try to scare Irish Catholics out of their faith when all the perscutions weren’t working. His family is still in Ireland, so I suspect the man would know.

It’s a crock…and as others have done, I will also recommend John Martignoni’s outstanding Bible study on this topic and encourage Catholics to turn the tables on those who seek to evangelize us with this stuff by getting his CD on it and giving copies to them.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[bibleapologist]

Church Militant,

I used to believe that stuff but I got to looking at the passages used to teach it and then as I read the New Testament, I began to find verses that create a context that show that it’s just another interpretted doctrine of man.
Example: John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

It is interesting to me that Roman Catholics can take a passage of scripture like John 6 so literally (but obviously symbolic), while at the same time bolster their A-Millennial views by claiming the majority of John’s Revelation as symbolic (which you also take literally in the elements of mass)… very confusing.

What do you say about this passage…?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This must occur before the return of Christ in all His glory, because during the tribulation, we are with Christ…

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

And during the reign of the Antichrist, the only people left on the earth are those who’s names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life…

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Sean_Boyle]

And debating with RCs on this subject will alway be futile since they will not, nor cannot, accept anything their magesterium has not. Which can be compared to the Jew in Christ’s day saying, “although all You say and do points to you as Messiah, we will not embrace you unless our religious leaders do.”

Wow, he thinks his Jesus is better than our Jesus!

 

[spauline]

dear bible apologist,

I am Catholic, but I sure as hell don’t think amill is the best solution to the millennium. admittedly, chiliasm is untenable, but does that mean amillie preterism is the only option for a Catholic? Absolutely not!

In fact, after about 4 years of meditation and study of these issues, I’m utterly convinced the true meaning of the millennium is somewhere in between postmill and premill, as follows:

In amill, the age of the Church is but one age, lying in between pagan Rome and the antichrist at the end. That is, it considers what lies between the early church AC (Nero) and the end church AC (the Big Guy AC) as though Scripture says nothing about it except that it is simply, the “general age of the renewal of mankind”.

But these people usually have no idea that there a considerable amount of data from FULLY APPROVED Private Rev that sheds abundant light on the question: the best scenario that can be derived from the overwhelming mytsics’ data is that there will be an INTERMEDIATE MINOR Apostasy after the first conversion of the world that will be followed by a conditional MINOR Chastisement and the reunion of Christians into the RCC and the ushering in of a glorious age of peace in which Catholicism is restored throughout humanity. Only after this great age of both spiritual and materialistic prosperity will there occur the GREAT apostasy, coming of Antichrist, and the Second Coming/General Judgement/New Creation.

Based on this, like I alluded to, the best interp of the millennium is not the limp-wristed, dismissive, liberal “ The millennium is simply the ‘whole’ age of the Church ” rolleyes: ), but neither is it the literalistic chiliasm in which Jesus literally reigns on earth for 1000 years. Rather it’s this glorious age of peace that lies between not ROME and the endtime AC, but between the MINOR apostasy and endtime AC, in which Christ reigns FIGURATIVELY, but also in a PRACTICAL sense, in that the majority of men will practice the Gospel, believe it, and live it.

In this vein, a Catholic can believe that in an entire other level of meaning besides preterism, the Apoc is addressing the great SPIRITUAL epochs of the WHOLE of Church history, and not JUST the beginning (as with preterists), or JUST the end (as with futurists).

If you want more info, you can check out my site on the apoc:

www.catholicmeditations.org/subSites/apocalypse/index.php.

blessings!
scott

 

[spauline]

btw, bible apologist,

I forgot to mention that, obviously, the minor apostasy is already here. But as others have hinted, we don’t get “raptured” out of the suffering to come. Indeed, if Our Lady’s remaining prophecies of “the annihilations of entire nations” come true in our lifetime, we will go through it. And I’m sure that persecutions will also be involved. That is why we must be fervently dilligent for our salvation in an extra sense, seeing as some of us younger people may actually go through this “dress-rehearsal” for the end of the world.

Therefore, do everything you can!!! Do the First Fridays. Do the First Saturdays. We need all the help we can get!

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant,

It is interesting to me that Roman Catholics can take a passage of scripture like John 6 so literally (but obviously symbolic), while at the same time bolster their A-Millennial views by claiming the majority of John’s Revelation as symbolic (which you also take literally in the elements of mass)… very confusing.

Only to someone who approaches them with a preconcieved belief that he wishes to then support. You know full well that John 6 is literal and plainly spoken by Our Lord Himself.

Furthermore, you also know full well that St. John straight up tells us that what he has written is a vision in Revelation 1:10 “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,” and trying to sort all that out and make it fit some kind of schedule is largely what is wrong with n-C eschatology to begin with.

What do you say about this passage…?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I say…it does not support the schedule of events as espoused by you and many other n-Cs. It is one passage pulled out of context of so many that apply to the return of Christ and marketed to the public as truth, when in fact it is anything but. John Martignoni refutes it from the Word of God very well here.
And you can listen to the study HERE.

This must occur before the return of Christ in all His glory, because during the tribulation, we are with Christ…And during the reign of the Antichrist, the only people left on the earth are those who’s names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life…

So says you…and John Nelson Darby, but none of the ECF taught this and they expected Our Lord at any time under tremendous tribulation. It’s not there historically. It’s not there scripturally. It’s error and may well lead to the ruin of a great many souls when things don’t go as they have been taught to expect.

Believe it if you wish. It is not for Catholics or even most of the rest of Christianity.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[NotWorthy]

When the Lord calls us up as described in Thessalonians, we (those that are left behind) rise and greet our King. Then we turn around and escort our King to reign in His New Kingdom on earth. Just like the Israeli’s welcomed their kings in the OT.