The Rapture

[rtconstant]

We won’t go through the Tribulation because God doesn’t subject the saved to Wrath. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Well yes, but what does that have too do with the tribulation or the rapture? God has given us His grace our souls are saved.

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.” Rev. 3:8-10

I don’t see how this applies too the rapture or tribulation.

“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” LUKE 21:36
This came out of the mouth of JESUS.

On subject but the natural interpretation of this is not to create a belief in a “rapture”.

Look back to Noah and Lot’s day. Both Noah and Lot lived in very wicked times. God needed to judge this evil. In Noah’s day the whole earth had become evil, and in Sodom and Gomorra God couldn’t even find ONE good person. In both of these accounts God chose to REMOVE the righteous prior to the judgment of the unbelievers.

Noah wasn’t spared. He was allowed to survive.

The Israelites were allowed to be forced into slavery, conquered (on multiple occasions), had their land stolen, 9 1/2 of the tribes lost, and suffered several pogroms. Christians, were severely persecuted for the first few centuries of their existence, they have been conquered and in many parts of the world still suffer persecution.

The Children of God have been in tribulation since the get go. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because we have it good in the West (today) that life is all puppies and ice cream for most Christians. There are more Christians in China than in the US and they struggle to for their faith today

I’m sorry but there is absolutely nothing in scripture or in history that should lead a Christian to think we get a pass on suffering. To be honest why do you want too? We’re often part of the problem here on earth just like everybody else. You think a just God is going to let us skate? No, we get an eternal reward and the promise that we won’t have to endure more than we can bare. This is pretty generous in my book.

 

[corvidae]

i have read the Bible, and guess what I have found biblical basis for all Catholic dogmas.

I think you do not find basis in your interpretation of what the Bible says, and that is ok, but you must realize that different interpretation is very different than not having any basis.

As for Mary, Catholics believe that God chose Mary as the Mother of His Son. We look to Mary because of this special choosing that she recieved. If there were someone more worthy of being the Mother of God’s Son, surely that person would have been chosen.

We honor Mary, not because of what she did, but because of what God did for her.

AS far as what Catholics believe, you are misrepresenting it if indeed you know it. For example, for Catholics it is not either the Catechism or the Bible, but both. You claim that the Catechism denies the Bible, and it may deny your interpretation of the Bible, but that is not the same thing.

A lone Raven

p.s. from dictionary.com a definition of prayer

1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord’s Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
7. a petition; entreaty.
8. the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.

note #7 That is how Catholics are supposed to pray to Mary, not that all do. Hoiwever, it does deny your belief that because you pray to something, you are worshiping it, even if that is the normal use.

 

[Fidelis]

From JCPeacekeepers wife: Are you going to give support for you believing it is a false doctrine? We have been backing ours up with scripture. I know my husband posted scriptures.

I. The Time is Unknown
Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, “no one but the Father knows the day and the hour.” The sects that try to predict Christ’s coming ignore these words.

Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.

Matt. 24:44 – Jesus warns us that the Son of Man is coming at an hour we do not expect.

Matt. 25:13 – Jesus says “watch therefore, and be prepared, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”

Mark 13:35-37 – Jesus says “watch because you do not know when the Master of the House will come - watch!”

Luke 12:46 - the Master will come on a day and at an hour when He is not expected.

Acts 1:7 - Jesus says it is not for us to know the times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3 - the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

James 5:7 - be patient until the coming of the Lord. Those who try to predict disregard this inspired teaching.

Rev. 22:20 - Jesus says He is coming soon, but He does not tell us when He is coming. Because Jesus says we do not know the day or the hour and will be surprised at His coming, it is silly, and disobedient, for people and groups to predict His coming. We, instead, need to be about the business of growing in holiness, so that we are prepared for our Lord when He comes again, no matter when that will be.

(continued)

 

[JCPeacekeeper]

I think it doesn’t. You have an obvious ignarance of, not only the Scriptures, but of what the Church believes. I could write a ten post reply to your post, but let me give you a few simple, random examples of your errors from the laundry list you gave:

Jesus ; Mary
conceived of the Holy Spirit; Immaculately Conceived
These are two entirely different things! Jesus was born of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, but Mary was born of two human parents, though by a special grace of God, preserved from sin.
The Son of God ; The Mother of God
This is a no-brainer: If Jesus is God, and Mary is his Mother – *viola! *Mary is the Mother of God.
Born without sin; Born without sin
As mentioned above, Mary was preserved from sin by a special grace from God. This doesn’t mean she had to be a God, only a recipient of God’s special grace.
Committed no sin ; Committed no sin
Again, there are other ways to explain someone being sinless without presuming they are divine. One does not necessarily lead to another.
The rest of the equally silly charges can be dealt with similarly. If you are going to repeat tired old anti-Catholic charges, you’d better do your homework before you come in here. They might work on the type of poor, hapless Catholic you are used to pummeling with misinformation, but not here.

We more than welcome sincere questions about the Faith here (especially asked one at a time and in a non-confrontational manner), but we will not roll-over for tired and crass charges we’ve heard and refuted a zillion times before.

Where are your Bibical scripture to support Mary. I will start a new thread on Mary after I have answered more questions about the Rapture.

 

[Fidelis]

(continued from previous post)

II. The Rapture
1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that “we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Protestants call this experience the “rapture” (even though the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The question Protestantism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a “thousand hills.” The word “thousand” here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a “thousand thousands” served him. Again, “thousand” means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a “thousand” years and a “thousand” years is one day. “Thousand” is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

There are three ways that Protestants interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.

(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church).

(continued)

 

[Fidelis]

(conclusion)

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.

(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html

carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

 

[Fidelis]

Where are your Bibical scripture to support Mary. I am starting a new thread on Mary.

Please do, as your laundry list about Mary did not contain any Scripture, either.

 

[JCPeacekeeper]

I. The Time is Unknown
Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, “no one but the Father knows the day and the hour.” The sects that try to predict Christ’s coming ignore these words.

Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.

Matt. 24:44 – Jesus warns us that the Son of Man is coming at an hour we do not expect.

Matt. 25:13 – Jesus says “watch therefore, and be prepared, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”

Mark 13:35-37 – Jesus says “watch because you do not know when the Master of the House will come - watch!”

Luke 12:46 - the Master will come on a day and at an hour when He is not expected.

Acts 1:7 - Jesus says it is not for us to know the times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3 - the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

James 5:7 - be patient until the coming of the Lord. Those who try to predict disregard this inspired teaching.

Rev. 22:20 - Jesus says He is coming soon, but He does not tell us when He is coming. Because Jesus says we do not know the day or the hour and will be surprised at His coming, it is silly, and disobedient, for people and groups to predict His coming. We, instead, need to be about the business of growing in holiness, so that we are prepared for our Lord when He comes again, no matter when that will be.

(continued)

Look at this website:

harpazo.net/101/List.html

We know when we are getting close to the end: 1 example I already gave but you refuse to see.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the END will come. " Matthew 24:14

Do you want me to break that down for you?

Try thinking for yourself instead of letting the Church think for you.

 

[JCPeacekeeper]

I think I’m done with Rapture questions, even if I show you biblical truth, you are blind to it.

BAD - Just remember this, don’t accept something called the Mark of the Beast.

GOOD - Get in the line where they are chopping peoples heads off, you won’t want to do it, but trust me you will be happy you did.

 

[corvidae]

I think this thread is finished if it is just going to become a place to call people stupid.

A lone Raven

 

[Odell]

JCPeacekeeper If you want to understand the book of Revelation GO TO MASS.

We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).

That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.

What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.

John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,” Sunday (see Revelation 1:10) - the name the first Christians gave to the first day of the week, upon which they celebrated “the breaking of the bread” (see Acts 20:7; Luke 24:1).

John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.

**And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass. **
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).

He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).

There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).

With the Angels and Saints

John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.

This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.

At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).

The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).

The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.

This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).

The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.

In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.

And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)

What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.

And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.

Again you will never understand it if you dont come to mass.

if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=lamb01.ra

And if you want to listen to the rest of it. Go to salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm

and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse

 

[JCPeacekeeper]

JCPeacekeeper If you want to understand the book of Revelation GO TO MASS.

We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).

That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.

What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.

John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,” Sunday (see Revelation 1:10) - the name the first Christians gave to the first day of the week, upon which they celebrated “the breaking of the bread” (see Acts 20:7; Luke 24:1).

John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.

**And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass. **
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).

He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).

There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).

With the Angels and Saints

John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.

This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.

At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).

The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).

The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.

This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).

The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.

In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.

And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)

What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.

And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.

Again you will never understand it if you dont come to mass.

if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=lamb01.ra

And if you want to listen to the rest of it. Go to salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm

and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse

I will take a look at it.

 

[Odell]

JCPeacekeeper just for the record your post says

“Salvation exists outside the church, but not outside Christ.”

would you say that there is salvation outside the body of Christ?

there is no salvation outside of Christ there is no salvation outside his body there is no salvation outside his body.

Christ=His Body=His Chruch

 

[SeattleCatholic]

JCPeacekeeper If you want to understand the book of Revelation GO TO MASS.

We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).

That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.

What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.

John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,” Sunday (see Revelation 1:10) - the name the first Christians gave to the first day of the week, upon which they celebrated “the breaking of the bread” (see Acts 20:7; Luke 24:1).

John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.

**And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass. **
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).

He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).

There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).

With the Angels and Saints

John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.

This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.

At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).

The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).

The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.

This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).

The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.

In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.

And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)

What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.

And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.

Again you will never understand it if you dont come to mass.

if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=lamb01.ra

And if you want to listen to the rest of it. Go to salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm

and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse

 

[Fidelis]

“Do you want me to break that down for you?”

“Try thinking for yourself instead of letting the Church think for you.”

“I think I’m done with Rapture questions, even if I show you biblical truth, you are blind to it.”

I think this thread is finished if it is just going to become a place to call people stupid.

A lone Raven

I agree.

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

If you are reading the Bible then you would see why many (not all) of the dogmas are not found in the scriptures.

That’s common understanding. As I am a new Catholic, I am far from qualified to respond to Mary and the Church’s teachings. What I’ve learned is many men of God before us came to certain understandings on Mary’s life that are not based solely on scripture but also on accepted tradition. The Trinity is also not in the Bible but inferred and part of our accepted traditions. Every church does this, even the “sola scriptura” folks. I can’t say I (as of today) accept (without question) all traditions about Mary. I am trying to get over myself and not get bent out of shape either way because I was not there. My understandings can be completely false.

I see the possibility Mary could have been a virgin her whole life AND assumed into heaven. One plausable explanation is Jesus did have brothers and sisters through marriage (Joseph’s children). Although implied, the Gospel account of Joseph not “knowing” her until giving birth is not a scathing rebuke to Catholic teaching. We are 2000 years removed from the birth and death of Christ. The Bible was written by men who lived in different times, speaking now long dead languages. The point is both speculations have some merit. Although the Catholic speculation on Mary is much less offensive than the assumptions flying out of many non-denominational pulpits.

Going back to non-denominational land, I am more than qualified to speak about non-denominational and charismatic churches. I’ve been involved in several over 26 years. I’ve touched or have called home churches called Lutheran, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Four Square, an Apostolic fellowship and a slew of independent Bible churches. I’ve worshiped in most mainline denominations as well. Although you might think I was church shopping, I moved around quite a bit when I was younger and my hunger for God brought me to different churches when my own was too small to have things like youth groups or Bible camps. I almost attended Bible College to become a youth pastor. However, I couldn’t then for reasons that led to my departure from Protestant churches. John Hagee’s church is one of the prime examples why I could not enter “the priesthood” on the Protestant side.

There is a rampant disease infesting Christianity today. Churches have gone so far from the Bible they profess to adhere to that they fit the definition of resembling the truth but denying the power. Power is not charisms or a "move of the Holy Spirit. Power is offering grace and mercy to those undeserving. Power is humbling yourself and serving others. Power is found in imitating the life of Christ. Power is not in preaching about self-interpreted “truth” from a golden pulpit.

Christ never intended the church to be 30,000 plus sects. Yet here we are. Some follow John Hagee, some follow T.D. Jakes, some follow good ol’ Joel Osteen. I came to the Catholic church because in our city (I live in SA) has become so infested with haughty, arrogant, self important independent churches that I could no longer go to any of them in good conscience. I found their foundation to be lacking.

When I decided to go back to church, I tried to visit several churches. Most didn’t pass the litmus test. I expected sound Biblical teaching without junk faith. I could not find ONE! Not one of them I could partner with to teach the gospel to my daughter. The Catholic church wins hands down for teaching the Bible without fluffy feel good animated videos or Christian candy as I call it.

I don’t pretend the Catholic church is perfect. I did visit one church in the area that had it been what all Catholic churches were like, I would have passed. The parish I attend has truly been the best, most sound, best functioning community of believers I’ve ever called home. My pastor/priest is a very humble, down to earth man that I see the very presence and life of Christ every time I see him. The fruit I’ve seen inside the Catholic church testifies they have a lot of things right. I may have some differing opinions on some things. But, I am more than willing to cut the Church and those who tend it some slack on secondary matters of tradition and doctrine. In the end, I have no doubt we will have many unimportant misunderstandings corrected patiently by the Master himself in heaven. Until then, I have chosen to respect and honor the good God fearing men who served Him before me as it should be.

 

[Julianna]

I think I’m done with Rapture questions, even if I show you biblical truth, you are blind to it.

BAD - Just remember this, don’t accept something called the Mark of the Beast.

GOOD - Get in the line where they are chopping peoples heads off, you won’t want to do it, but trust me you will be happy you did.

Wow! Someone with a crystal ball! My Baptist grandmother used to tell me about the rapture…

“one will be taken, and one will be left”…

Since I do think for myself…the end times will be so evil, that for every 2 people, one will be good and the other evil.

I think that our Father in Heaven has a great sense of humor. Revelations was the masterpiece. It gets us talking, fighting, arguing…around and around…hoping that we will “listen” to each other long enough to figure it out.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Serious Bible scholars and the vast majority of Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, and the bulk of protestant Christians) do not buy into the poppycock that the rapture exists or that the CC is the Whore. It never ceases to amaze me how this tiny fraction of mostly American evangelicals think that they have it all figured out after roughly 2000 years.

There will be a “rapture” at the time of the one and only Second Coming. That is all that is supported by scripture and all scripture that is used to support the pre-trib rapture is taken grossly out of context by fallible people interpreting an infallible book. Obviously no attention is paid to historical facts about when “rapture” was first invented or they would know it is all false.

As for the Whore remark, it is disgusting to me that people have actually convinced themselves of this. This is not scriptural either, nor does it make any sense that the writers of the New Testament, who were the first Catholics would say such a thing about the Church Christ Himself founded. I would challenge each person reading the Bible to take off their 20th century lenses and read the NT through the eyes of the earliest Christians. Read everything you can from the early Church fathers. There you will see that the first Church is the Catholic Church. That the first Church believed in the Real Presence in the Communion Meal, that the first Church believed in confession, that the first Church did not believe in Rapture. Ironically, many, many Biblical scholars who read all of the Church fathers often become Catholic because they finally see that their interpretation of scripture does not match the the first Christians.

PS. most of those who believe this nonsense also believe that Constantine founded the Catholic Church…guess again and read my signature.

 

[cestusdei]

From JCPeacekeepers wife: Are you going to give support for you believing it is a false doctrine? We have been backing ours up with scripture. I know my husband posted scriptures. There is a difference in the “rapture” and His second coming. He will be in the clouds at the catching away. He will only set foot on the earth in His second coming on the top of the Mt.Olives. That is when He sets up His earthly kingdom. God will pour out His wrath on the earth during the Great Tribulation. God has never put His people through His wrath. They have always been spared. Please look at the scriptures posted earlier supporting the catching away theory.

Tell you what. Show me where scripture says everything must be backed up by scripture alone. I read the same scriptures you do and see no rapture. I can give better explanations for every verse if you like. In fact no one knew anything about a rapture for the first 1800 years of church history. The rapture is false doctrine. A mere tradition of men.

Consider the “catching away” idea. It relates to what happened in Noah’s time. Ah but in that case those who died were caught away by the flood. It was those who were “left behind” that lived! It is the exact opposite of what you say.

Oh and where was that quote from the catechism that says Catholics must worship Mary? Show it to me.

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

Tell you what. Show me where scripture says everything must be backed up by scripture alone. I read the same scriptures you do and see no rapture. I can give better explanations for every verse if you like.

Home run number one!

Consider the “catching away” idea. It relates to what happened in Noah’s time. Ah but in that case those who died were caught away by the flood. It was those who were “left behind” that lived! It is the exact opposite of what you say.

Oh and where was that quote from the catechism that says Catholics must worship Mary? Show it to me.

Very interesting way of thinking. Not quite sure that I would use the one to read “truth” into the other. I’m sure I saw the Mary thing. It was next to the part that says God hates all gays.