The RCC and the state of Israel

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Is the RCC a (so-called) “Zionist-Christian” Church, the way that many of the “born-again” / Evangelical / Protestant cults , sects, and churches nowadays tend to be ? And why are those groups like that , * really * ?? Is it merely an “alliance of convenience” for the Jews, with the aforementioned “born-again” / Evangelical/ Protestant Zionists really thinking that they are one day going to “convert” the Jews , or ?? I mean, looked at objectively, it seems like a relationship that is ultimately very “limited” , let’s say, given the gaping theological chasm that exists between the “allies”.

Now, I realize the RCC, like any institution, nation, family, or what-have-you, is not a “monolith”, and certainly individuals belonging to any group always have differing personal opinions. (Even on things that are supposed to be fundamental, or actually are officially fundamental, as far as the institution itself is concerned, like “moral vs. venial sin”, papal edicts regarding birth control usage, abstinence, abortion, the death penalty, war, even private “vice”-type of things like masturbation and pornography for example … :cool: )

Therefore, bearing in mind that no institution is a “monolith”, RC’s are bound to be of many , or at least “a few”, differing opinions regarding the current state of Israel, its right to continue existing in its current state, and also its relations with the indigenous Arabs of the regions (the “Palestinians”, although there is no Palestine on a map ~ yet). So, beyond the questions which I posed in the first paragraph, I was also wondering what standard RCC doctrine is on this / these issues regarding Israel , if there is any set doctrine on it from Rome, and also what some of your own opinions are on this very important social issue for our time.

(NOTE: Moderator, I apologize, I am not sure where this post should have gone, please move [again] if it’s wrong. Sorry).

TBQ
 
I dunno what the Church says about Israel and the Jews. As for me, I always felt they were our big brothers and sisters. And that God in His infinite wisdom still has a plan for the Jew. For as few as they are, they have managed to be resiliant to all those who tried to wipe them out. Something I guess like the Holy Spirit protecting the Church. So I don’t know how the endgame will play out. I just my older brother and sisters will be there playing out their part.

imho,

emp.
 
My personal feeling is it was wrong for the UN to give the Jews the Sate of Israel at the expense of its inhabitants. There has to be some sort of expiry on when a group can lay claim to a land.

The native peoples ofthat area were displaced, and moved to ghettos in much the same way the Jews were during the beginnings of WWII. Now I by no means agree with the methods employed by the Palestinians I can feel their pain. How would anyone here like to be kicked out of their homeland for people who lived thousands of years ago? If I was a young Palestinian I know what I would be doing, and it isn’t just saying oh well it is the Jews land it says so in the Bible.

I also feel bad for the Jews who were displaced over thousands of years of persecution and really have no place to call their own prior to gaining statehood. But that shouldn’t be at the expense of another group of people.

It would be nice if they can compromise, and come to a mutually beneficial agreement. But I think that is a long way off.
 
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Mike_D30:
My personal feeling is it was wrong for the UN to give the Jews the Sate of Israel at the expense of its inhabitants. There has to be some sort of expiry on when a group can lay claim to a land.

The native peoples ofthat area were displaced, and moved to ghettos in much the same way the Jews were during the beginnings of WWII. Now I by no means agree with the methods employed by the Palestinians I can feel their pain. How would anyone here like to be kicked out of their homeland for people who lived thousands of years ago? If I was a young Palestinian I know what I would be doing, and it isn’t just saying oh well it is the Jews land it says so in the Bible.

I also feel bad for the Jews who were displaced over thousands of years of persecution and really have no place to call their own prior to gaining statehood. But that shouldn’t be at the expense of another group of people.

It would be nice if they can compromise, and come to a mutually beneficial agreement. But I think that is a long way off.
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Ihabitants? :rotfl: The palestinians were nomadic people!
 
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tilis:
Ihabitants? :rotfl: The palestinians were nomadic people!
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And where we they living at the time Israel was declared a state?

Or do you think Jerusalem was completely abandoned?

Can we knock off the patronizing emoticons? Man I hate when those things are used to mock people, it’s so childish.

The Palestinians couldn’t have been that big of nomads since the Bible talks of Palestine in the same general area 2000 years ago. I can understand backing Israel but don’t pretend like the land in Israel was abandoned prior to Israeli statehood.
 
Mike D ~

Well put. I’m in basically complete agreement with you. Furthermore, there’s just far far too much mistreatment , downright second-class citizen status treatment, apartheid-like treatment really, for the Arabs of Israel / Palestine. And yes, they were , their ancestors were, the inhabitants of the land for the past, what, nearly a millenium?? Since Salah-din took it back from the Crusaders in the 12th century AD?? I never thought I’d say this, but I can see the logic in the argument made by that whack job of an Iranian president , Ahmed Ahmadinejad, when he said that since it was the people in central Europe who caused the Jews to suffer, carve out a small portion of Germany, or Poland, for them to live. What, besides their “Old Testament Promised Land claim”, gives an Eastern European Jew, or an American-born and raised Jew, whose parents and grandparents were also American-born and raised, the “right” to just waltz in there , take up residence in a “settlement” , and view him / herself as inherently superior, and be treated by the gov’t down there *as * inherently superior, to the people who have inhabited that region for the past 900 to 1000 years??? It’s just not right. In so far as the RCC has always been generally more concerned with true social justice than the other non-Catholic sects and churches, I am glad to hear there are others who think along similar lines on this issue.

TBQ
 
I thought for the large part the Jews lawfully bought worthless parcels of land and settled in long before Israel was a recognized state. Secondly, I thought thet the resident Palestinians were betrayed by their neighbouring brother and sister Arabs who informed the Palestinians to clear out of the wave of death as they pushed the Jews into the sea. So the grandfathers of the current Palestinian youth were at fault for listening to the errors of their neighbours and today we have strife not just with the Muslem Palestinians, but you hardly hear anything of Christian Israelis and Palistinians and how they are treated in the Holy Land.

emp
 
Who knows what reasons the extreme Evangelicals have for partnering up with Isreal. Political reasons probably. Why should that concern us? Our people are in Central and South America, Africa, Southern and Central Europe and parts of Asia. Nearly everywhere except Palestine. We have no real stake in this in-fighting.

My ancestors came from Ulster. Maybe RCC needs to call for a crusdade to drive the Orange from my ancestral homeland and let me and my cousins in South Boston reclaim our land. BAH. The world is what it is. It makes no difference how it got that way. We need to convert both the Jews and the Muslims, not take sides. Both groups are in dire need of Christ.
 
My personal feeling is it was wrong for the UN to give the Jews the Sate of Israel at the expense of its inhabitants. There has to be some sort of expiry on when a group can lay claim to a land.
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Hmm…I’m not sure it was ultimately the UN who gave it to them. They may have officially given the final approval, but it was Great Britain which really controlled the area, and had the ultimate decision over who to give it to. And if you think that Great Britain had no right to be there…well, then we can go back farther and farther in history all over the world, and say who shouldnt be where. The fact is, after a few generations, it is no longer necessary to go back and correct wrongs in the geopolitical world.

Originally, Israel was set up side by side with a Palestine. Then they won a defensive war against the arabs and so took the rest of the land. The whole thing is a sad situation.

The Church believes the following about the State of Israel:

It is a purely natural state, not a supernatural one like it used to be in Bible times. It is a state set up as the historical geographic homeland for a specific national group. It is not the “promised land” for the “chosen people” anymore, nor will it ever be no matter what semblence they create to the Old Testament State.

As a purely natural state, it is like any other, and must obey international law like any other. It calls itself a “Jewish State” but it is really more of a “Hebrew State” inasmuch as it represents the Jews as a national or “ethnic” community, not a religious one. However, since many non-Hebrew, Eastern European lines have gotten mixed into the Jews, the term “Jew” today more accurately refers to what can be seen as the Jewish nationality. The State of Israel is a homeland for that particular nationality, like Iran for the Persians, Azerbaijan for the Azeri, Poland for the Poles, etc. It cannot claim special “divine” or “chosen” or “promised” status, as the old covenant was fullfilled by the new, the temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled, and the Church now embraces Jews and Gentiles.

Originally the Church was wary about establishing a state of israel because it could appear as if the Jews thought they were establishing a divine state again, which they were not and cannot, the exile of the Jews from any supernatural claim to a land must be remembered (even if they do establish a purely natural claim to some land). And if Israel were to be established, it was thought best not to put it in the Holy Land, so as to not create confusion over the fact that this was not a “special” state, merely a nation for a particular nationality like any other.

But Israel was in fact established, and now that it has been, the Church recognizes its purely natural right to exist as a nation like any other (but does not recognize its alleged supernatural right to exist like some Jews themselves and the Protestant Fundamentalists)

The Church is also sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. She above all wants peace in the region, and a protection of Christian Holy Sites. Two-states with a shared Jerusalem somehow seems preferable (well, actually, a united Christian kingdom in the Holy Land would be preferable, but that ideal was sort of given up after the Crusades…we’ll have to wait until the end of time to have one Christian world…). She condemns both Muslim terrorism, as well as Jewish arrogance and zionist racism. The Jews should not act “entitled” to the land, but the Palestinians should not be violent and extremist either. Distinct national and etnic groups throughout the world should all have a certain level of sovereignty and self-determination, just as the family should have, and the individual should have. Even when Europe had the Holy Roman Empire and was “Christendom”, remember, distinct states, kingdoms, regions, fiefdoms existed. We never had a unified Caliphate or anything like that, a Pan-Christian state
 
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12: 3).

P.S. reffering to Israel.
 
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melbourne_guy:
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12: 3).

P.S. reffering to Israel.
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Abraham was given a three part promise(Covenant) from God, called the Abrahamic Covenant (three promises to be fulfilled in three future covenants) Gen. 15 - Land Promise= Israel (Mosaic covenant), Gen. 17- Kingdom Promise = Dynasty of David (Davidic Covenant) Gen. 22 - Promise of Worldwide Blessing (New Covenant in Jesus Christ) so actually the above quoted scriture is in reference to the fact that all families, Gentiles too not just jews, will be part of the New Covenant Jesus Christ.
 
I also feel bad for the Jews who were displaced over thousands of years of persecution and really have no place to call their own prior to gaining statehood. But that shouldn’t be at the expense of another group of people.

ItQUOTE]

In actuality the kingdom of Israel(12 tribes)Divided in 930 B.C. with the Northern Kingdom (Israel) going into exile in about 753 B.C. and the Southern Kingdom (Judah) going into exile in 605 B.C.( there were three deportations of Jews from this area spanning times from 605 B.C to 587 B.C.) Judah was in exile in the North(Babylon) for 70 Years before they started to return in three waves, spanning 538 B.C - 444 B.C So the Jews were really not displaced for thousands of years. They were on the other hand Seperated from God for 500 years after their return from Exile. Breaking Covenants is nasty business!!!
 
The Church believes the following about the State of Israel:

It is a purely natural state, not a supernatural one like it used to be in Bible times. It is a state set up as the historical geographic homeland for a specific national group. It is not the “promised land” for the “chosen people” anymore, nor will it ever be no matter what semblence they create to the Old Testament State.

As a purely natural state, it is like any other, and must obey international law like any other. It calls itself a “Jewish State” but it is really more of a “Hebrew State” inasmuch as it represents the Jews as a national or “ethnic” community, not a religious one. However, since many non-Hebrew, Eastern European lines have gotten mixed into the Jews, the term “Jew” today more accurately refers to what can be seen as the Jewish nationality. The State of Israel is a homeland for that particular nationality, like Iran for the Persians, Azerbaijan for the Azeri, Poland for the Poles, etc. **It cannot claim special “divine” or “chosen” or “promised” status, as the old covenant was fullfilled by the new, the temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled, and the Church now embraces Jews and Gentiles.**Originally the Church was wary about establishing a state of israel because it could appear as if the Jews thought they were establishing a divine state again, which they were not and cannot, the exile of the Jews from any supernatural claim to a land must be remembered (even if they do establish a purely natural claim to some land). And if Israel were to be established, it was thought best not to put it in the Holy Land, so as to not create confusion over the fact that this was not a “special” state, merely a nation for a particular nationality like any other.

But Israel was in fact established, and now that it has been, the Church recognizes its purely natural right to exist as a nation like any other (but does not recognize its alleged supernatural right to exist like some Jews themselves and the Protestant Fundamentalists)

The Church is also sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. She above all wants peace in the region, and a protection of Christian Holy Sites. Two-states with a shared Jerusalem somehow seems preferable (well, actually, a united Christian kingdom in the Holy Land would be preferable, but that ideal was sort of given up after the Crusades…we’ll have to wait until the end of time to have one Christian world…). She condemns both Muslim terrorism, as well as Jewish arrogance and zionist racism. The Jews should not act “entitled” to the land, but the Palestinians should not be violent and extremist either. Distinct national and etnic groups throughout the world should all have a certain level of sovereignty and self-determination, just as the family should have, and the individual should have. Even when Europe had the Holy Roman Empire and was “Christendom”, remember, distinct states, kingdoms, regions, fiefdoms existed. We never had a unified Caliphate or anything like that, a Pan-Christian state
The Church puts it quite well . Especially the part I put it in boldface. I agree 100%. This is where the “born-again” cultists and their ilk are dead wrong. I’m glad that this is the Church’s official stance on the issue. The more I actually *learn * about the Church lately the happier I’m becoming that I was born and baptized Catholic and received all my Sacraments there (not yet including marriage). It’s a shame it takes some of us from about the time we’re in our mid to late teens, to the time we’re my age, early 30’s , to “come back home” so to speak. But nevertheless, the Catholic church where I grew up going as a child, where I made my Sacraments, will always feel like home to me, even though I’ve been like a “runaway” kid for a long time.
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Anyway, that’s off point… Thanks for that info re: Israel.

TBQ
 
To reply to subject of the OP - (sort of)
Some Evangelicals, etc. believe that the impending return of Christ is dependant upon the state of Israel rebuilding the Temple - so that the Anti-Christ can come and defile it which will bring about THE END OF THE WORLD.
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15-16
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So they see the return of the state of Israel as a fulfilment of prophecy.
These Christians are also the ones who are suspicious of just about everything from Social Security Numbers to Universal Price Code Numbers to imbedded computer chips as being the MARK OF THE BEAST without which you will not be able to buy or sell.
This is all based on their reading of the various apocolyptic stories in the Bible. It is usually ‘Rapture’ related as well since the ‘popular’ version of the ‘rapture’ is to remove the ‘faithful’ from the planet prior to the great tribulation.
Their alliance isn’t as surprising to me as the one between Muslims (read Islamo-Fascists here) and White Power kooks who are joined by their hatred of the Jews. Now that’s a match made in Hell.
 
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TheBigQ:
Is the RCC a (so-called) “Zionist-Christian” Church, . . . .
So, beyond the questions which I posed in the first paragraph, I was also wondering what RCC … on these issues regarding Israel
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In answer to your first question, yes. We do worship the God of Israel.

These links should give you a good idea.
hebrewcatholic.org/
secondexodus.com/html/sitedesign/israeliteheritage.htm

Also, the book “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Shoeman is an excellent read. Here’s a link: salvationisfromthejews.com/

The Catholic Church fully supports the state of Israel and condemns the terrorist homicidal bombers.
 
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Ignatius:
In answer to your first question, yes. We do worship the God of Israel.

These links should give you a good idea.
hebrewcatholic.org/
secondexodus.com/html/sitedesign/israeliteheritage.htm

Also, the book “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Shoeman is an excellent read. Here’s a link: salvationisfromthejews.com/

The Catholic Church fully supports the state of Israel and condemns the terrorist homicidal bombers.
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I personally would stay away from the above links as they tend to Judaize the Gospels…or at least imho they do.

Secondly, the Catholic Church is in no way shape or form Zionist. I don’t recall the Church ever supporting the belief that Israel has some religious claim to the land that they now occupy.

I’ll have to look for a source but I don’t believe that the Church recognized Israel as state for quite some time.
 
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bigdawg:
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Ignatius:
In answer to your first question, yes. We do worship the God of Israel.
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These links should give you a good idea.
hebrewcatholic.org/
secondexodus.com/html/si…iteheritage.htm

Also, the book “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Shoeman is an excellent read. Here’s a link: salvationisfromthejews.com/

The Catholic Church fully supports the state of Israel and condemns the terrorist homicidal bombers.

I personally would stay away from the above links as they tend to Judaize the Gospels
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These are fully in communion with the Magisterium and the teachings of the Catholic Church. The books are even on the EWTN lists. Do you have some actual examples of actual errors on these sites or are you just falsely accusing?

I have noticed a definate and alarming anti-zionist trend in this thread.
 
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Ignatius:
These are fully in communion with the Magisterium and the teachings of the Catholic Church. The books are even on the EWTN lists. Do you have some actual examples of actual errors on these sites or are you just falsely accusing?

I have noticed a definate and alarming anti-zionist trend in this thread.
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Ignatius,

I will try to answer your first questions later.

But for now, I do want to point out that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism.
 
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bigdawg:
I will try to answer your first questions later.

But for now,.
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I’ll take that as a “yes those are groundless accusations and in fact I don’t know the first thing about those sites or books, I was just making it up because I am an anti-zionist”
 
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