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bigdawg
Guest
You are kinda arrogant don’t you think? In case you didn’t read what I stated, let me say again, I will answer your questions later.
Now, please tell me what exactly is wrong with being anti-Zionist?
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Now, please tell me what exactly is wrong with being anti-Zionist?
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The_Iambic_Pen
Guest
There is a tendency for some people to say, “Oh, I like the Jews all right, but I just think it would be better if they had stayed second-class citizens in other countries throughout the world, rather than having their own place.” I’ve heard it said that people were sympathetic to the Jews as long as they were downtrodden, but as soon as they stood up for themselves, it freaked people out. It’s as if the Jews are supposed to be a persecuted minority, and when they move away from that role, it messes up the “natural” order of things.
The Jews and Arabs could have co-existed in neighboring states, but the Arabs would have none of it, and now their descendants are paying the penalty for it. This is sad, and we should all work, hope and pray for a peaceful solution, but to say, as the radical Islamists say, that the Jews should all go “back to Europe” is ridiculous.
I can’t speak for the Catholic Church, but many Fundamentalists support Israel because they believe God sees Israel as His nation, and that anyone who fights against Israel is fighting against God’s people. However, I believe there are reasons to support Israel that are completely separate from one’s interpretation of Biblical prophecy.
Anway, let us all pray for peace in Israel and in that whole region of the world.
God bless!
The Jews and Arabs could have co-existed in neighboring states, but the Arabs would have none of it, and now their descendants are paying the penalty for it. This is sad, and we should all work, hope and pray for a peaceful solution, but to say, as the radical Islamists say, that the Jews should all go “back to Europe” is ridiculous.
I can’t speak for the Catholic Church, but many Fundamentalists support Israel because they believe God sees Israel as His nation, and that anyone who fights against Israel is fighting against God’s people. However, I believe there are reasons to support Israel that are completely separate from one’s interpretation of Biblical prophecy.
Anway, let us all pray for peace in Israel and in that whole region of the world.
God bless!
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rwoehmke
Guest
It is pretty obvious that most if not all of the posters here are not American Indians. Today it looks like Mexico would like to take back part of the north 48 and doing a good job of it.
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Mike_D30
Guest
A lot of people have problems looking at the situation through the eyes of “the other guy” (the Palestinians). They are treated like garbage, that’s a fact 50% unemployment, just think of that even during our depression unemployment wasn’t half as bad as that. Settlements popping up forcing you furhter and further off your homeland. It’s got to be infuriating.
As an Irish Catholic it isn’t hard for me muster sympathy for the Palestinians.
Some people get so caught up in thier love for the Jewish people, they forget about those “other guys”, who are loved no less by God.
I don’t support suicide bombers, but tactical military operations aimed at Israeli military targets I would say are more than justified, as long as Israel is not adhering to its end of the bargain too.
It’s easy to call someone like me an anti-semite, but I’m not I feel bad for the Jews, but that doesn’t mean I have to have blind loyalty for them, and not feel sympathy for the Palestinians.
People like to say that Israel won the war so they’re entitled to the land, but land grabs were most definitely illegal after winning a war after WWII. The same people who defend the land grab are the same folks that defend the Iraq war because Iraq didn’t obey the U.N. Israel has flouted about 100 times the amount of U.N. resolutions than Iraq ever did.
You can’t have such a double standard and not expect the “other guy” to get angry, people are people. And not one person if they were livign in Palestine right now, would be such zealous zionists.
As an Irish Catholic it isn’t hard for me muster sympathy for the Palestinians.
Some people get so caught up in thier love for the Jewish people, they forget about those “other guys”, who are loved no less by God.
I don’t support suicide bombers, but tactical military operations aimed at Israeli military targets I would say are more than justified, as long as Israel is not adhering to its end of the bargain too.
It’s easy to call someone like me an anti-semite, but I’m not I feel bad for the Jews, but that doesn’t mean I have to have blind loyalty for them, and not feel sympathy for the Palestinians.
People like to say that Israel won the war so they’re entitled to the land, but land grabs were most definitely illegal after winning a war after WWII. The same people who defend the land grab are the same folks that defend the Iraq war because Iraq didn’t obey the U.N. Israel has flouted about 100 times the amount of U.N. resolutions than Iraq ever did.
You can’t have such a double standard and not expect the “other guy” to get angry, people are people. And not one person if they were livign in Palestine right now, would be such zealous zionists.
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empacae
Guest
The Iambic Pen:
I could get into full agreement with that. I really don’t know how the Church views a Zion Israel. I think – my opinion – is that if the Church doesn’t believe that God has chosen the Hebrews to see the Light, after all that time in history… Why have they continued to suffer throughout the ages? Why is there so few of them? and Why are they still here? Okay I don’t neccessarily think a physical temple has to be buit on Mt. Zion. But what’s more is I think that Isarel should be protected as well by all of us. I suppose their pride is that they will protect themselves, but that should be a last line of defence. I don’t know why the Arab neighbours resent the Jews now that they are their own country. Hasn’t Israel too done things to help all citizens improve their living situations Jew and non-Jew alike? I would not be for destroying the Dome on the Rock, but it’ll probably be an Islamic terrorist using too broad an instrument in action of death and destruction and end up taking out his own mosque. If for some unfortunate reason the Dome fell, then I swould be yay…let’s put up a temple (even though THAT goes against everything Catholic in me, especially the ritual sacrifices and all) But for the Jews, they would have something tangible, something material, to connect more fully to God, something they haven’t felt in something like 2000 years?
emp
HEAR! HEAR!
I could get into full agreement with that. I really don’t know how the Church views a Zion Israel. I think – my opinion – is that if the Church doesn’t believe that God has chosen the Hebrews to see the Light, after all that time in history… Why have they continued to suffer throughout the ages? Why is there so few of them? and Why are they still here? Okay I don’t neccessarily think a physical temple has to be buit on Mt. Zion. But what’s more is I think that Isarel should be protected as well by all of us. I suppose their pride is that they will protect themselves, but that should be a last line of defence. I don’t know why the Arab neighbours resent the Jews now that they are their own country. Hasn’t Israel too done things to help all citizens improve their living situations Jew and non-Jew alike? I would not be for destroying the Dome on the Rock, but it’ll probably be an Islamic terrorist using too broad an instrument in action of death and destruction and end up taking out his own mosque. If for some unfortunate reason the Dome fell, then I swould be yay…let’s put up a temple (even though THAT goes against everything Catholic in me, especially the ritual sacrifices and all) But for the Jews, they would have something tangible, something material, to connect more fully to God, something they haven’t felt in something like 2000 years?
emp
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bigdawg
Guest
If the Jews want to more fully connect to God they should convert. Sacrificing in the temple is only going move them further away is it not?
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bigdawg
Guest
Ignatius,
Yes, I am an anti-zionist. So what?
If you are interested in reading a critique of Moss and Schoeman I suggest you try:
catholicintl.com/catholicissues/judaizers.htm
Please don’t whine or cry about it being written by Sungenis until you read the article.
If you actually take the time to read the article and disagree please post what points you think are in error.
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bigdawg
Guest
You can apologize after you read the article I referenced.
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batteddy
Guest
Exactly true. The Church does not support the belief that Israel has some divine claim to the land anymore. Israel does not have a religious claim to the land, like some Jews and Fundamentalist Protestants believe.
However, the Church did eventually agree that a natural, national claim has been legitimately established, at least over some of that territory. It did not recognize Israel right away over fears that they would think that they had a divine claim to the land (and one can see a lot of arragance, racism, and flaunting of UN resolutions in hard-core zionism). Overtime, Israel’s purely natural claim to a nation became firmly established and the Church recognized it as a natural state like any other, with a right to exist peacefully if it follows international law and deals properly with Palestine.
But from any sort of divine claim to land, the Jews are still in exile. Any temple they build will be false, from the Catholic point of view, and any continuing religious observances superfluous and carried out in blindness.
“Hebrew Catholic” tendencies are fine in my opinion as long as they are truly Catholic. If people want to investigate the Jewish roots of Christianity more and look into restoring, in a limited way, some more ancient Jewish liturgical influence (some of our liturgy is already derived from ancient Judaism) I think that is fine. And if converts to Catholicism from Judaism want to retain the “ethnic”, national, and cultural aspects of Jewish heritage (language, food, clothing, literature, etc)…its fine as long as their religion is fully, orthodoxly, Catholic.
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Ignatius
Guest
Anti-zionist is just another, narrower form of bigotry. It doesn’t matter if you are an anti-semitic bigot, and anti-zionist bigot, or an anti- hasidic bigot.
All of these forms of bigotry has no place on a Catholic forum and need to be stamped out.
I’ll read your link after you’ve read these and responed.
These links should give you a good idea of the Catholic Link with the Hebrew people.
hebrewcatholic.org/
secondexodus.com/html/si…iteheritage.htm
Also, the book “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Shoeman is an excellent read. Here’s a link: salvationisfromthejews.com/
The Catholic Church fully supports the state of Israel and condemns the terrorist homicidal bombers.
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Mike_D30
Guest
That doesn’t make any sense. If you’re a zionist you’re a bigot against palestinians and Muslims. Am I an anti Protestant bigot because I don’t agree with how they treat Catholics in Northern Ireland?
In your mind anyone who feels sympathy for the Palestinians are pro-suicide bombers which doesn’t make sense either.
Israel treats the palestinians very poorly, Israel’s land grab was illegal, and Israel flouts every U.N resolution levied against them. You can’t just blindly support Israel even if they conduct illegal activities.
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Mike_D30
Guest
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp
The Catholic Church relatively recently recognized the Jewish State of Israel I think in the late 1980’s. The Catholic Church doesn’t take a covenant theology stance, or a dispensationlist stance. Therefore the Catholic Church has no blind loyalty to the zionist state of Israel.
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bekalc
Guest
My stepmother is Jewish. Do you now what she said. She says she doesn’t feel sorry for the Palestinians, and she doesn’t feel sorry for the Israelis… She thinks both groups are responsible for the mess they are in, and in many ways I agree. I feel a bit more sorry for the Palestinians because I know its hard for many to get out, they are basically prisoners…
I don’t think disagreeing with things Israel does, or thinking that perhaps the way Israel was created means that you hate Jewish people (I’m not saying that’s my stepmom’s opinion.)
we are all sinners Jews and Gentiles!
I don’t think disagreeing with things Israel does, or thinking that perhaps the way Israel was created means that you hate Jewish people (I’m not saying that’s my stepmom’s opinion.)
we are all sinners Jews and Gentiles!
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bigdawg
Guest
Ignatius,
The link I provided does an adequate job of demonstrating the problems with Judaizing Christianity. If you would have take the time to simply read the article, you would have realized that the article targets Moss and Schoeman and explains the problems with their theology.
I have no idea why you won’t read it. Maybe you are afraid of being challenged.
As to the charge of bigotry, please report me to a moderator. I would be interested in seeing one of them giving you an attitude adjustment. So please, since I have offended your delicate constitution, report me.
One last thing, anti-zionism is no where even close to anti-semitism.
Did you know that there are Jews, religious Jews as well as secular Jews, who are anti-Zionists?
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bigdawg
Guest
Apparently Ignatius can…and does.
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bigdawg
Guest
Certainly the Church condemns terrorism…no matter who the terrorist happen to be…even if they happen to be Jewish.
When you say “the Church fully supports Israel”, what precisely do you mean? If the Church “fully supported Israel”, one may be tempted to wonder why the Vatican didn’t recognize Israel as a state for quite some time.
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